Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[JayJuanGee]

Holliday, seriously?

I'm pretty sure Satoshi said something about scaling to Visa levels of transactions.

here - have a vote on the issue:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1634765.msg16440373#msg16440373

I am pretty sure that you are guessing about what you wished Satoshi said or would have said, and really in the end, who gives a shit? 

There should not be any need to appeal to authority.

Bitcoin is already established and evolved and  more than 6 years have passed since Satoshi said anything... Accordingly, bitcoin has been modified and adjusted to adapt to real world problems while attempting to preserve the overall original vision regarding secure decentralized immutable value transfer/storage.  That is more than visa and that is more than putting some kind of expedited timeline to expect bitcoin to be a bank or some other bullshit.. bitcoin remains a paradigm shift and a phenomenon never before seen - and must be taken with pace.. and hope and pray that it does not evolve into something that it is not (such as a stupid ass centralized bank / credit card system)

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[AlexGR]

The network is at capacity. How is that FUD? The evidence is there. Look at it. Or, are you looking at testnet or something?

What you're basically saying is:

The train is full. You can get on this train if you pay more and we'll pull someone off the train. They'll have to wait for another train, or pay more than you offer.

With that sort of attitude, users will just continue to use banks and credit cards. They don't bump users transactions.

There should be 100m people using bitcoin right now. Stop making it a niche application and giving banks time to adjust and offer something shitty, but will give customers a reason to not move over to Bitcoin.

Fees are not the problem, nor a barrier to entry.

https://bitcoinfees.21.co/

Which fee should I use?

The fastest and cheapest transaction fee is currently 70 satoshis/byte, shown in green at the top.
For the median transaction size of 226 bytes, this results in a fee of 15,820 satoshis (0.08$).

And that's the 1-conf transaction.

For conf after several blocks transaction (which is still way faster than a SWIFT), it drops down to 0.01$ or less.

34.000 txs in the last day were in the 0 - 9 satoshi/byte range, which for a 230 byte transaction means 0$ - 0.01$.

As a reminder, paypal charges flat 0.35$ + percentage over the payment. And SWIFT wires, western union etc, take A LOT of money.

[Holliday]

Holliday, seriously?

I'm pretty sure Satoshi said something about scaling to Visa levels of transactions.

here - have a vote on the issue:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1634765.msg16440373#msg16440373

Seriously.

Satoshi, as smart a dude as he is, isn't prescient. At least not on everything. In 2009 we weren't fully aware of the levels that certain groups would go to in order to violate our freedom. We didn't know how far governments would go to spy on their own citizens. Satoshi hasn't been heard from for almost six years now. A lot has happened during that time. Capital controls continue to grow more onerous across the globe. You'll have to excuse me for having strong opinions about the one financial tool we have left which allows us to retain a small foothold of freedom in a world where we are assaulted daily with new forms of control.

If Bitcoin scales to VISA levels of transaction today, it will most likely come with VISA levels of censorship. We should strive to keep the underlying network as robust as possible, because the high speed internet we take advantage of today may not exist in the future without significant controls on what kind of information can and can not be sent. It isn't unreasonable to think that major ISPs could be forced to block all Bitcoin related traffic. At that point it becomes a game of cat and mouse, and the more information we need to share to keep the thing up and running, the more difficult the task becomes.

Efforts for scaling should come as layers on top of the robust network infrastructure. That way we can fall back to the lower layers should the need arise.

I, personally, will not be satisfied with the robustness of the network until it's running smoothly on a global wireless mesh network which is practically impossible to "switch off" or censor. When considering a change which could impact decentralization, we should err on the side of decentralization every single time. Financial freedom is the priority here. Every transaction does not need to be censorship-proof in a world where censorship-proof transactions exist!

My vote concerning full nodes: The more, the merrier.

But yeah, well... ya know, that's just like... uhh... my opinion man.

[savetherainforest]

@Jay I just realized, you are just rehashing what you are being fed.

You've been brainwashed, my friend. You have lost the ability to think for yourself and look at the evidence objectively.

I guess it's like trying to convince a Scientologist they've been pulled into a long con.

He is in denial... ... He keeps singing the same tune.. over and over... 

[Karartma1]

Holliday, seriously?

I'm pretty sure Satoshi said something about scaling to Visa levels of transactions.

here - have a vote on the issue:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1634765.msg16440373#msg16440373

Seriously.

Satoshi, as smart a dude as he is, isn't prescient. At least not on everything. In 2009 we weren't fully aware of the levels that certain groups would go to in order to violate our freedom. We didn't know how far governments would go to spy on their own citizens. Satoshi hasn't been heard from for almost six years now. A lot has happened during that time. Capital controls continue to grow more onerous across the globe. You'll have to excuse me for having strong opinions about the one financial tool we have left which allows us to retain a small foothold of freedom in a world where we are assaulted daily with new forms of control.

If Bitcoin scales to VISA levels of transaction today, it will most likely come with VISA levels of censorship. We should strive to keep the underlying network as robust as possible, because the high speed internet we take advantage of today may not exist in the future without significant controls on what kind of information can and can not be sent. It isn't unreasonable to think that major ISPs could be forced to block all Bitcoin related traffic. At that point it becomes a game of cat and mouse, and the more information we need to share to keep the thing up and running, the more difficult the task becomes.

Efforts for scaling should come as layers on top of the robust network infrastructure. That way we can fall back to the lower layers should the need arise.

I, personally, will not be satisfied with the robustness of the network until it's running smoothly on a global wireless mesh network which is practically impossible to "switch off" or censor. When considering a change which could impact decentralization, we should err on the side of decentralization every single time. Financial freedom is the priority here. Every transaction does not need to be censorship-proof in a world where censorship-proof transactions exist!

My vote concerning full nodes: The more, the merrier.

But yeah, well... ya know, that's just like... uhh... my opinion man.

Pretty reasonable. I agree with most of it.

Financial freedom is the priority here

: this is the real reason why I am grateful to Satoshi, he gave me (us) the "keys" to our financial freedom. He shared it on a silver plate.

[savetherainforest]

Financial freedom is the priority here

: this is the real reason why I am grateful to Satoshi, he gave me (us) the "keys" to our financial freedom. He shared it on a silver plate.

Well is not enough... we need to do our part and enforce that freedom. We need to not allow anyone to try and make a database of all accounts. And actually even trying to multiply the anonymous factor.

[iCEBREAKER]

Classic is coming, like it or not. The alternative is to go down with a ship full of corecoins or popescucoins.

Damn, I wish I had taken Peter_R's ">1mb blocks on the longest chain by July 2016" bet (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11881436#msg11881436).

It would have triggered majamalu so hard when I donated my winnings to theymos and Core.   

[beastmodeBiscuitGravy]

Austin Hill

[phreaky]

Hoping prices are going up quickly again instead of balacing out around 610 there's been no movement for a while just steady ups and downs.
Waiting for the right time to sell now hoping it is soon can use some extra cash.

[coins101]

Austin Hill

One down...

[becoin]

I, personally, will not be satisfied with the robustness of the network until it's running smoothly on a global wireless mesh network which is practically impossible to "switch off" or censor.

My thoughts are the same. It must be build to connect mining pools first.

[Fatman3001]

Crypto 101 : Introduction to the crypto community

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/09/economist-explains-17

[savetherainforest]

Crypto 101 : Introduction to the crypto community

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/09/economist-explains-17

Hmmm...?? ... This feels like a warning....

"The Club" really wants the people to have crypto??  

*edit: Or its just being forced upon everyone to get the customs of the new generation online culture... or better said "the online elite culture". Or they are just trying to get ahead the curve.

[coins101]

....

Fees are not the problem, nor a barrier to entry.

https://bitcoinfees.21.co/
..

All you have to do is look at your nearest bureaux de change to understand that fees are 100% the issue.

Nearly all bureauxs de change will advertize zero fees. Even many remittances providers claim zero fees on international transactions. Why? Because the masses are easily fooled. They see zero fees for these services, credit cards, banking, paypal, etc and they assume it's a free lunch. So they fill their boots on these services.

Having deployed a currency product aimed at consumers, I can, with 100% certainty, tell you this is the case.

General consumers have no clue that all the profit margins are made on the currency conversion; and if they try to check it, the rates are too confusing to work out, so they just look a the big sign that says zero fees and off they go.  The average remittance value is $200/month, and its sent by people, on average, with little or no education.

Fees are a deal breaker for mass adoption. Which, to stay on topic, is a deal breaker for Bitcoin demand and therefore its price; especially in one of its biggest markets: $600bn/year remittances.

[AlexGR]

....

Fees are not the problem, nor a barrier to entry.

https://bitcoinfees.21.co/
..

All you have to do is look at your nearest bureaux de change to understand that fees are 100% the issue.

Nearly all bureauxs de change will advertize zero fees. Even many remittances providers claim zero fees on international transactions. Why? Because the masses are easily fooled. They see zero fees for these services, credit cards, banking, paypal, etc and they assume it's a free lunch. So they fill their boots on these services.

Having deployed a currency product aimed at consumers, I can, with 100% certainty, tell you this is the case.

General consumers have no clue that all the profit margins are made on the currency conversion; and if they try to check it, the rates are too confusing to work out, so they just look a the big sign that says zero fees and off they go.  The average remittance value is $200/month, and its sent by people, on average, with little or no education.

Fees are a deal breaker for mass adoption. Which, to stay on topic, is a deal breaker for Bitcoin demand and therefore its price; especially in one of its biggest markets: $600bn/year remittances.

In the end of the day, what matters is how much you sent and how much the other party got (or how much you got, when the other sent them).

When the other party tells you that "hey you have sent 1000$, but I only got 950$ so you need to send another 50$", at that point you learn about the hidden fees.

Or when you sell something through paypal for 100$ and you end up getting 97$, it's pretty visible too.

With bitcoin fees of $0.00x to $0.1x , at least we don't have such worries.

If paypal isn't a deal breaker with its 35 cents + % on each payment, and bank wires and western unions aren't deal breakers with all their charges, then why do we even bother with the near-zero fees of bitcoin?

The actual fees attached to bitcoin are all connected to the legacy and centralized systems (fiat conversions, exchanges, etc).

[BitUsher]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-04/janus-s-gross-says-bitcoin-blockchain-may-counter-central-banks

"New financial technologies such as bitcoin may become increasingly attractive to investors as a protection against central bank low- and negative-interest-rate policies that threaten capitalism, according to billionaire bond manager Bill Gross."

[becoin]

....

Fees are not the problem, nor a barrier to entry.

https://bitcoinfees.21.co/
..

All you have to do is look at your nearest bureaux de change to understand that fees are 100% the issue.

Nearly all bureauxs de change will advertize zero fees. Even many remittances providers claim zero fees on international transactions. Why? Because the masses are easily fooled. They see zero fees for these services, credit cards, banking, paypal, etc and they assume it's a free lunch. So they fill their boots on these services.

Having deployed a currency product aimed at consumers, I can, with 100% certainty, tell you this is the case.

General consumers have no clue that all the profit margins are made on the currency conversion; and if they try to check it, the rates are too confusing to work out, so they just look a the big sign that says zero fees and off they go.  The average remittance value is $200/month, and its sent by people, on average, with little or no education.

Fees are a deal breaker for mass adoption. Which, to stay on topic, is a deal breaker for Bitcoin demand and therefore its price; especially in one of its biggest markets: $600bn/year remittances.

You don't have any clue what're you talking about!

[Elwar]

....

Fees are not the problem, nor a barrier to entry.

https://bitcoinfees.21.co/
..

All you have to do is look at your nearest bureaux de change to understand that fees are 100% the issue.

Nearly all bureauxs de change will advertize zero fees. Even many remittances providers claim zero fees on international transactions. Why? Because the masses are easily fooled. They see zero fees for these services, credit cards, banking, paypal, etc and they assume it's a free lunch. So they fill their boots on these services.

Having deployed a currency product aimed at consumers, I can, with 100% certainty, tell you this is the case.

General consumers have no clue that all the profit margins are made on the currency conversion; and if they try to check it, the rates are too confusing to work out, so they just look a the big sign that says zero fees and off they go.  The average remittance value is $200/month, and its sent by people, on average, with little or no education.

Fees are a deal breaker for mass adoption. Which, to stay on topic, is a deal breaker for Bitcoin demand and therefore its price; especially in one of its biggest markets: $600bn/year remittances.

In the end of the day, what matters is how much you sent and how much the other party got (or how much you got, when the other sent them).

When the other party tells you that "hey you have sent 1000$, but I only got 950$ so you need to send another 50$", at that point you learn about the hidden fees.

Or when you sell something through paypal for 100$ and you end up getting 97$, it's pretty visible too.

With bitcoin fees of $0.00x to $0.1x , at least we don't have such worries.

If paypal isn't a deal breaker with its 35 cents + % on each payment, and bank wires and western unions aren't deal breakers with all their charges, then why do we even bother with the near-zero fees of bitcoin?

The actual fees attached to bitcoin are all connected to the legacy and centralized systems (fiat conversions, exchanges, etc).

When you go to spend bitcoins you see the dollar amount of $X and then a QR code that says send Y bitcoins to this address. Do you think people actually go to the exchange to check the price then open a calculator to figure out if the bitcoin value they are sending is the latest value? As someone who spends bitcoins all the time, I assure you they do not. If there's a .00001 BTC fee added to the .28421482 price I'm paying it's not deterring me from spending.

[coins101]

....

Fees are not the problem, nor a barrier to entry.

https://bitcoinfees.21.co/
..

All you have to do is look at your nearest bureaux de change to understand that fees are 100% the issue.

Nearly all bureauxs de change will advertize zero fees. Even many remittances providers claim zero fees on international transactions. Why? Because the masses are easily fooled. They see zero fees for these services, credit cards, banking, paypal, etc and they assume it's a free lunch. So they fill their boots on these services.

Having deployed a currency product aimed at consumers, I can, with 100% certainty, tell you this is the case.

General consumers have no clue that all the profit margins are made on the currency conversion; and if they try to check it, the rates are too confusing to work out, so they just look a the big sign that says zero fees and off they go.  The average remittance value is $200/month, and its sent by people, on average, with little or no education.

Fees are a deal breaker for mass adoption. Which, to stay on topic, is a deal breaker for Bitcoin demand and therefore its price; especially in one of its biggest markets: $600bn/year remittances.

You don't have any clue what're you talking about!

After spending $100k on focus groups to identify appropriate fee structures for remittances, I can assure you adverts like this highlighting zero fees are no mistake:







So, I can assure you of this: you have no clue about consumers perception of fees.

[coins101]

...

The actual fees attached to bitcoin are all connected to the legacy and centralized systems (fiat conversions, exchanges, etc).

If you do enough transactions, fees become an issue:

https://youtu.be/1-z-zTBHOO8?t=14m14s