Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[User705]

Just crazy story one off the noob friends i have Got into btc like 1,5 years back .... Just told me he converted all his btc into bch   thinking he Made a good move like wtf i’m Speechless what do i say to Him

Which is more crazy?
Bitmain only accepting BCH as payment, or what your friend did?

"1. Only BCH(Bitcoin Cash) payment method is accepted in this batch, please use the exact amount mentioned in your order and complete the payment within one hour. After one hour, the order will expire and your payment may not be detected by the system automatically. Payment must be in BCH. We cannot accept payment in BTC. If you send BTC to the BCH wallet the coins may be lost. If the payment is submitted but the receipt is delayed, we will make your payment "Valid" manually."

https://shop.bitmain.com/productDetail.htm?pid=00020180102101937612alpWm337068A

This is off topic but why is everyone keep being surprised at Bitmain supporting BCH.  The miners realized that no matter how hard they try they can’t possibly mine more then the last 25% of BTC so why would they support any off chain solutions.  The only way to get more BTC for them was to make sure everything is on chain and paying fees in BTC.  Of course no one wanted to compromise so miners went and did what’s best for them. Then everyone who sold at low single digit % exchange gave them a big gift but everyone is now somehow surprised and continuously bitching that they simply do what’s best for them.  It’s bitcoin not democracy or socialism.  Get over it.

[Peter R]

Which is more crazy?
Bitmain only accepting BCH as payment, or what your friend did?

"1. Only BCH(Bitcoin Cash) payment method is accepted in this batch, please use the exact amount mentioned in your order and complete the payment within one hour. After one hour, the order will expire and your payment may not be detected by the system automatically. Payment must be in BCH. We cannot accept payment in BTC. If you send BTC to the BCH wallet the coins may be lost. If the payment is submitted but the receipt is delayed, we will make your payment "Valid" manually."

https://shop.bitmain.com/productDetail.htm?pid=00020180102101937612alpWm337068A

It is very difficult for a merchant to accept BTC any longer.  In addition to customer-service hassles dealing with payments that don't confirm, the merchant has the problem that it costs him $30 or so per output to move the coins he receives.  If he sells 1000 items, it costs him approximately $30,000 to move those outputs to an exchange to sell them.  Worse still, if he wants to use them directly, a payment processor like BitPay now also passes on the transaction fees that they will have to pay to move the coins.  

BTC is completely broken as a means of payment.  It makes perfect sense for Bitmain to accept only BCH.  

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Won't LN make payment processors like Bitpay totally obsolete?

[User705]

Won't LN make payment processors like Bitpay totally obsolete?

That seems backwards wouldn’t BitPay be an LN processor and charge the same fee?

[d_eddie]

Won't LN make payment processors like Bitpay totally obsolete?

Totally obsolete, not immediately.
Until at least some of your providers in turn accept LN payments, some kind of bridge to/from fiat will still be necessary, as you need to unload your channels when their in-capacity gets filled up.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Won't LN make payment processors like Bitpay totally obsolete?

Totally obsolete, not immediately.
Until at least some of your providers in turn accept LN payments, some kind of bridge to/from fiat will still be necessary, as you need to unload your channels when their in-capacity gets filled up.

Good enough.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Hey I noticed Peter R. up there. I hope he's not still trying to sell those BCH's to us.
 
Cuz' we ain't instrasted.

[User705]

...

It is not just that they are supporting it, they are only taking it. This lends to more than just support.

But that’s just it.  That’s the best way for them to convert hash rate to value ie BCH/BTC.  Yes it’s a bit nasty because it’s the same PoW but the other option is bend over / submit and lose out on fees forever.  No surprises they are attempting to do the opposite.  Of course if you are a BTC purist the solution is to simply tax the system.  Sell your BCH and buy back same amount when it’s lower.  Rinse and repeat while retaining more and more BTC.  Basically a tax on the lower valued currency. 

[PoolMinor]

...

It is not just that they are supporting it, they are only taking it. This lends to more than just support.

But that’s just it.  That’s the best way for them to convert hash rate to value ie BCH/BTC.  Yes it’s a bit nasty because it’s the same PoW but the other option is bend over / submit and lose out on fees forever.  No surprises they are attempting to do the opposite.  Of course if you are a BTC purist the solution is to simply tax the system.  Sell your BCH and buy back same amount when it’s lower.  Rinse and repeat while retaining more and more BTC.  Basically a tax on the lower valued currency. 

See, they still incur fees to move the BTC that they traded from BCH payments, why not just take the superior payment of LTC?

[Peter R]

Won't LN make payment processors like Bitpay totally obsolete?

Bitpay has already stated that they will run LN hubs, if the technology works and the consumer demand presents itself.  

But I think LN fees will be too high and the network too impractical to compete with on-chain payments on an uncrippled cryptocurrency.

I guess we'll find out when LN is finally ready...

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Won't LN make payment processors like Bitpay totally obsolete?

Bitpay has already stated that they will run LN hubs, if the technology works and the consumer demand presents itself.  

But I think LN fees will be too high and the network too impractical to compete with on-chain payments on an uncrippled cryptocurrency.

I guess we'll find out when LN is finally ready...

So you think BitcoinGold is the answer?

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Peter, I understand you are a big fan of BitcoinGold and a holder, too. And you wish for others to buy up the price. But this is not the way to go about it.

[Peter R]

Won't LN make payment processors like Bitpay totally obsolete?

Bitpay has already stated that they will run LN hubs, if the technology works and the consumer demand presents itself.  

But I think LN fees will be too high and the network too impractical to compete with on-chain payments on an uncrippled cryptocurrency.

I guess we'll find out when LN is finally ready...

So you think BitcoinGold is the answer?

Bitcoin DoublePlusGoodWithACherryOnTop is the crypto of the future.  The flippening is nigh.

[Torque]

Peter, I understand you are a big fan of BitcoinGold and a holder, too. And you wish for others to buy up the price. But this is not the way to go about it.

Again just like with BCash, Peter R. is a "big fan" of any forked coin that he got for free and didn't have to pay for directly out of his pocket.

Such a transparent shill that guy.  

[d_eddie]

Won't LN make payment processors like Bitpay totally obsolete?

But I think LN fees will be too high and the network too impractical to compete with on-chain payments on an uncrippled cryptocurrency.

<crystalball>
Incentives, Peter. With the entry cost of setting up a LN hub close to the simple funding of channels, my guess is there will be fierce competition on prices, some of which motivated by purely political, rather than financial, reasons (as in: I, for one, will start a hub as soon as it's practical). With such low-denominator price wars, and low ROI volunteers helping the net nearly for free (as full nodes already do today), I don't see how a high fee level could be sustained.
</crystalball>

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Peter, I understand you are a big fan of BitcoinGold and a holder, too. And you wish for others to buy up the price. But this is not the way to go about it.

Again just like with BCash, Peter R. is a "big fan" of any forked coin that he got for free and didn't have to pay for directly out of his pocket.

Such a transparent shill that guy.  

And in the morning he'll be gone. We know his type.

[cAPSLOCK]

Big Head and Shoulders... now little head and shoulders, but our dandruff is getting worse.

[Peter R]

Won't LN make payment processors like Bitpay totally obsolete?

But I think LN fees will be too high and the network too impractical to compete with on-chain payments on an uncrippled cryptocurrency.

<crystalball>
Incentives, Peter. With the entry cost of setting up a LN hub close to the simple funding of channels, my guess is there will be fierce competition on prices, some of which motivated by purely political, rather than financial, reasons (as in: I, for one, will start a hub as soon as it's practical). With such low-denominator price wars, and low ROI volunteers helping the net nearly for free (as full nodes already do today), I don't see how a high fee level could be sustained.
</crystalball>

There was a really interesting talk on "Recharging Lightning" at Scaling Bitcoin Stanford by Aviv Zohar.  You can watch it here:

https://youtu.be/3pd6xHjLbhs?t=1h2m21s

He showed that LN fees in fact wouldn't be as low as many people expect because:

- channels eventually become depleted and need to be "recharged." This costs 1 on-chain fee which needs to be amortized over the life of the channel.

- the bigger you make the channel the longer it lasts before needing a "recharge," but then the more money you tie up.  There is an opportunity cost associated with this money tied up in a channel (modeled as an interest rate by Zohar).  

Zohar shows that the only way fees can be very very small, is if channels are very very richly funded OR if on-chain fees are also very small.  Neither of these conditions will hold however (well outside of a highly-centralized hub-and-spoke model where the hubs control all of the LN channels).

[Peter R]

Peter, I understand you are a big fan of BitcoinGold and a holder, too. And you wish for others to buy up the price. But this is not the way to go about it.

Again just like with BCash, Peter R. is a "big fan" of any forked coin that he got for free and didn't have to pay for directly out of his pocket.

Such a transparent shill that guy.  

Uh...BMB just made that up.  For God's sake, executables from the Bitcoin Gold github repo stole people's private keys!

[Neo_Coin]