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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 25493772 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (158 posts by 14 users with 9 merit deleted.)
ol92
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February 23, 2018, 09:03:06 AM

Bolded text is what I am indeed seeing in this whole crypto crazy world. People who had no idea about what a bitcoin is, suddenly become expert traders who can distinguish between a good and a bad crypto coin. I've seen people losing their savings to gamble on tokens, coins and ICOs.

I'm on the train but a part of me is feeling a bit(coin) train sick. And by the way, thanks for the energy consumption insights

The ugliest truth of bitcoin is that it just isn't useful in any legal fields. Sure it's useful in black markets, but this usefulness is a ticking time bomb before laws will end this. Greed is represented here by the notion that very little people actually seem to care about this. Everyone are solely concentrated on how much higher they want to sell their bitcoins and practical usefulness is rarely asked. Most know a lot about the price of bitcoin, in the same time knowing nothing about the value of bitcoin.

Promises of easy riches will always attract the worst among people. Those who are greedy enough to desire wealth, but who are lazy and stupid enough not to actually be able acquire it. These are the people who have strong desire for wealth, while knowing that they won't ever be able to achieve it in a productive way. They are the ones who are capable in selling their grandmother for bigger gains, because they know that they probably won't get many chances in life.
My guess is that this ugly phase of the crypto world will eventually end together with bitcoin. Total crash of bitcoin would finally disillusion people from finding easy shortcuts to riches here. Only those would remain who are able to work with this market more, then with a "buy low, sell high" routine. The rest will run off to new motivational classes and marketing schemes to find new shortcuts for easy riches.
I have faith in the cryptoasset market in general, but it has to mature quicker or else it will create a big mess.
Looks like we have a communist.

I'm a pure blooded capitalist, but with things like ethics, conscience and a sober mind. Bitcoin has little to do with the idea of capitalism, where efficiency is an important pillar. One of the most important dreams of a typical bitcoiner is wealth re-distribution. They dream that bitcoin will eventually replace central banking, putting them into position of wealth and power, so they can sit on their ass for the rest of their life, while the deflationary value of their currency will even make them richer while they're doing the sitting. To me, this reminds me the illusions that the Bolsheviks had. Talking about vanquishing the evil rich, but only thinking about re-distribution of wealth from other pockets to own pockets. Without actually thinking about the practical issues involved in running a country and drowning in the illusions of personal worth instead. As you can see, I'm not even a fan of communists..

People early involved in bitcoin weren't like this: there were - and there are still - people which believed that bitcoin - and crypto in general - could bring a better financial system, with alleviating the necessity of Tiers in financial exchanges, leading to the end of the bank oligarchy.

But I agree with you that with the financial gains, bitcoin and crypto has attracted more and more profit driven people, and some early bitcoiners have lost their initial motivation, becoming increasingly similar to "normal" rich people looking for increasing their money...
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February 23, 2018, 09:06:24 AM

I agree it would be crazy to spend $5 billion / year to run a payment network used by 5 million users (that number is pretty low IMO). That's just wasteful. And if you think Bitcoin is just that, you've been reading some funny pamphlets.

It is in fact a decentralized peer 2 peer network that enables any 2 parties in the world to exchange value over the internet without the need for trust and a central authority.

Was email better than regular mail back in 1990? You needed a $5000 computer and it still took a long time, while a stamp only cost a few cents. What a waste of money, right?

In my eyes, the problem is exactly that bitcoin isn't nothing but an expensive payment network. It is often called a "cryptocurrency", but in my eyes it is a gimmick of an currency, when it doesn't have an independent mechanism for value stabilization. As long as it has to use fiat to give it value, then fiat will still be the only currency in the pair and bitcoin is just the temporal solution to transfer fiat. That is why, in my technical point of view, it is the same to hope for bitcoin to replace fiat then to hope for your car to fly to the moon. In this reality these things just don't have the needed mechanics for the job..
Don't take me as a pessimist by this. I think that in the future we will have an cryptoasset that is able to break this currency boundary and will be able to actually offer an predictable value without the need for the support of fiat value. Trying to wish bitcoin to do this isn't just constructive use of energy. All these false hopes and illusions will only make a big mess and the people who profit for it aren't exactly the good kind.
I also think that you can't compare the e-mail protocol to bitcoin protocol. One is a communication protocol, you can compare it to IRC if you like. Bitcoin is an financial protocol with a lot more complexities and different rule-sets.
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February 23, 2018, 09:07:16 AM

It is in fact a decentralized peer 2 peer network that enables any 2 parties in the world to exchange value over the internet without the need for trust and a central authority.

This is all you need to remember. This little red and green here and there will be just a distant blip in a few years.
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February 23, 2018, 09:07:23 AM

Bolded text is what I am indeed seeing in this whole crypto crazy world. People who had no idea about what a bitcoin is, suddenly become expert traders who can distinguish between a good and a bad crypto coin. I've seen people losing their savings to gamble on tokens, coins and ICOs.

I'm on the train but a part of me is feeling a bit(coin) train sick. And by the way, thanks for the energy consumption insights

The ugliest truth of bitcoin is that it just isn't useful in any legal fields. Sure it's useful in black markets, but this usefulness is a ticking time bomb before laws will end this. Greed is represented here by the notion that very little people actually seem to care about this. Everyone are solely concentrated on how much higher they want to sell their bitcoins and practical usefulness is rarely asked. Most know a lot about the price of bitcoin, in the same time knowing nothing about the value of bitcoin.

Promises of easy riches will always attract the worst among people. Those who are greedy enough to desire wealth, but who are lazy and stupid enough not to actually be able acquire it. These are the people who have strong desire for wealth, while knowing that they won't ever be able to achieve it in a productive way. They are the ones who are capable in selling their grandmother for bigger gains, because they know that they probably won't get many chances in life.
My guess is that this ugly phase of the crypto world will eventually end together with bitcoin. Total crash of bitcoin would finally disillusion people from finding easy shortcuts to riches here. Only those would remain who are able to work with this market more, then with a "buy low, sell high" routine. The rest will run off to new motivational classes and marketing schemes to find new shortcuts for easy riches.
I have faith in the cryptoasset market in general, but it has to mature quicker or else it will create a big mess.
Looks like we have a communist.

I'm a pure blooded capitalist, but with things like ethics, conscience and a sober mind. Bitcoin has little to do with the idea of capitalism, where efficiency is an important pillar. One of the most important dreams of a typical bitcoiner is wealth re-distribution. They dream that bitcoin will eventually replace central banking, putting them into position of wealth and power, so they can sit on their ass for the rest of their life, while the deflationary value of their currency will even make them richer while they're doing the sitting. To me, this reminds me the illusions that the Bolsheviks had. Talking about vanquishing the evil rich, but only thinking about re-distribution of wealth from other pockets to own pockets. Without actually thinking about the practical issues involved in running a country and drowning in the illusions of personal worth instead. As you can see, I'm not even a fan of communists..

People early involved in bitcoin weren't like this: there were - and there are still - people which believed that bitcoin - and crypto in general - could bring a better financial system, with alleviating the necessity of Tiers in financial exchanges, leading to the end of the bank oligarchy.

But I agree with you that with the financial gains, bitcoin and crypto has attracted more and more profit driven people, and some early bitcoiners have lost their initial motivation, becoming increasingly similar to "normal" rich people looking for increasing their money...

There's a fine line in business, and the weight is certainly on the side of the profit, no one wants to engage ina non-profiting venture, it may not pay in green currencies, however, it does provide certain relaxation and satisfaction of achievement. If I put a dollar in a business and get 50cents in return I am most likely going to think of something different to avoid such an outcome. Yes! crypto has encouraged profit driven people, well at least, it is giving everyone an equal opportunity and decentralising the profits.
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February 23, 2018, 09:09:09 AM

I agree it would be crazy to spend $5 billion / year to run a payment network used by 5 million users (that number is pretty low IMO). That's just wasteful. And if you think Bitcoin is just that, you've been reading some funny pamphlets.

It is in fact a decentralized peer 2 peer network that enables any 2 parties in the world to exchange value over the internet without the need for trust and a central authority.

Was email better than regular mail back in 1990? You needed a $5000 computer and it still took a long time, while a stamp only cost a few cents. What a waste of money, right?

In my eyes, the problem is exactly that bitcoin isn't nothing but an expensive payment network. It is often called a "cryptocurrency", but in my eyes it is a gimmick of an currency, when it doesn't have an independent mechanism for value stabilization. As long as it has to use fiat to give it value, then fiat will still be the only currency in the pair and bitcoin is just the temporal solution to transfer fiat. That is why, in my technical point of view, it is the same to hope for bitcoin to replace fiat then to hope for your car to fly to the moon. In this reality these things just don't have the needed mechanics for the job..
Don't take me as a pessimist by this. I think that in the future we will have an cryptoasset that is able to break this currency boundary and will be able to actually offer an predictable value without the need for the support of fiat value. Trying to wish bitcoin to do this isn't just constructive use of energy. All these false hopes and illusions will only make a big mess and the people who profit for it aren't exactly the good kind.
Brevity, comrade. Nobody is going to read those huge blocks.
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February 23, 2018, 09:12:12 AM

The ugliest truth of bitcoin is that it just isn't useful in any legal fields.

What ? I... just... huh ?

Lol... don't go into a cardiac attack just yet... The guy's got a point, - 'legal'..., there are no current state or federal stamps on BTC codes acknowledging it as a medium of exchange, however, it does suit the masses to do as they please -  freedom of... something.
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February 23, 2018, 09:12:56 AM

General reminder that bitcoin would never have become more than a forgotten project worth about a basket of apples without the ability to make money on it. Greed is good.
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February 23, 2018, 09:17:24 AM

General reminder that bitcoin would never have become more than a forgotten project worth about a basket of apples without the ability to make money on it. Greed is good.

Greed is productive in moderation. Too much of it and things mostly end bad.
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February 23, 2018, 09:18:05 AM

The ugliest truth of bitcoin is that it just isn't useful in any legal fields.

What ? I... just... huh ?

Lol... don't go into a cardiac attack just yet... The guy's got a point, - 'legal'..., there are no current state or federal stamps on BTC codes acknowledging it as a medium of exchange, however, it does suit the masses to do as they please -  freedom of... something.

If you want to be technical, something does not need to be acknowledged as a medium of exchange in order to create a binding legal obligation.  “I agree to trade my goat for two of your sheep” is legally enforceable even if neither sheep nor goats are recognized as mediums of exchange.  
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February 23, 2018, 09:19:40 AM

Why are we even entertaining this troll? Slow day?
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February 23, 2018, 09:24:22 AM

The ugliest truth of bitcoin is that it just isn't useful in any legal fields.

What ? I... just... huh ?

Lol... don't go into a cardiac attack just yet... The guy's got a point, - 'legal'..., there are no current state or federal stamps on BTC codes acknowledging it as a medium of exchange, however, it does suit the masses to do as they please -  freedom of... something.

If you want to be technical, something does not need to be acknowledged as a medium of exchange in order to create a binding legal obligation.  “I agree to trade my goat for two of your sheep” is legally enforceable even if neither sheep nor goats are recognized as mediums of exchange.  

Quite the contrary, the public opinion of a legal binding obligation requires judicial and legislative stamps (blue, green, red or whatever), they just have to put it into law and recognize it's function as a financial asset; and yes sheep and goats are recognized as a medium of exchange - commodity exchange.

And speaking of technical, Bitcoin has been touted as being the 'digital gold' - a form of currency or tradable asset, so there must be some binding or legal (at least from the governing body) attestation to that premise.
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February 23, 2018, 09:28:18 AM

The ugliest truth of bitcoin is that it just isn't useful in any legal fields.

What ? I... just... huh ?

Lol... don't go into a cardiac attack just yet... The guy's got a point, - 'legal'..., there are no current state or federal stamps on BTC codes acknowledging it as a medium of exchange, however, it does suit the masses to do as they please -  freedom of... something.

The main thing I pointed out with this is that bitcoin doesn't actually offer anything practical for doing business. It's not simple, secure, fast or cheap enough to be useful in practical finance. I think that the reason is that being the first, bitcoin is just the most simplistic, general and non-specialized product. New generation of cryptos are built from the ground up to solve specific practical problems and that is why they are a lot more efficient and useful.
Bitcoin was trying hard to define itself as a store of value asset. In my eyes this won't work because an asset, that's value is highly dependent on speculation, will never be a good store of value asset. This would be as moronic as to recommend pink sheets as store of value investments. Store of value needs stability and predictability the most.
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February 23, 2018, 09:32:08 AM

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=521908
Really unimpressed with 2012 arguments then, not gonna be engaging them again now.
Thought we were at least up to 2013 now with 'privacy and fungibility' the topics.
Please Mr Dimon, Sir, won't you send us more entertaining shills? tia
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February 23, 2018, 09:35:46 AM

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=521908
Really unimpressed with 2012 arguments then, not gonna be engaging them again now.
Thought we were at least up to 2013 now with 'privacy and fungibility' the topics.
Please Mr Dimon, Sir, won't you send us more entertaining shills? tia

Arguments ignored since 2012 = success?
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February 23, 2018, 09:37:37 AM

The main thing I pointed out with this is that bitcoin doesn't actually offer anything practical for doing business.

... and another one added to the ignore list. Jesus...

At first I read that he put Jesus on the ignore list..
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February 23, 2018, 09:39:03 AM

The ugliest truth of bitcoin is that it just isn't useful in any legal fields.

What ? I... just... huh ?

Lol... don't go into a cardiac attack just yet... The guy's got a point, - 'legal'..., there are no current state or federal stamps on BTC codes acknowledging it as a medium of exchange, however, it does suit the masses to do as they please -  freedom of... something.

The main thing I pointed out with this is that bitcoin doesn't actually offer anything practical for doing business. It's not simple, secure, fast or cheap enough to be useful in practical finance. I think that the reason is that being the first, bitcoin is just the most simplistic, general and non-specialized product. New generation of cryptos are built from the ground up to solve specific practical problems and that is why they are a lot more efficient and useful.
Bitcoin was trying hard to define itself as a store of value asset. In my eyes this won't work because an asset, that's value is highly dependent on speculation, will never be a good store of value asset. This would be as moronic as to recommend pink sheets as store of value investments. Store of value needs stability and predictability the most.

I agree it is the first most simplistic, and it's quite hard for it to deviate from its original consensus plan - a store of value, peer-to-peer electronic cash system that has an in-built decentralised transaction history with high-tech-class security. Nothing more should be expected from it, other than for a scaling function to accommodate mainstream usage; because, I think that's the only thing the developers didn't factor in during the early development phase. But for stability and predictability only a centralised system can achieve such regulatory benchmark.
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February 23, 2018, 09:42:57 AM
Merited by jojo69 (1)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1066312
Coincidentally pops up to discuss things and matters and to debate ideas and opinions.

Can you both come clean now and present your shitcoin. Is it better than ETH? and NEO? Will it change crypto fundamentally?
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February 23, 2018, 09:46:03 AM

I agree it would be crazy to spend $5 billion / year to run a payment network used by 5 million users (that number is pretty low IMO). That's just wasteful. And if you think Bitcoin is just that, you've been reading some funny pamphlets.

It is in fact a decentralized peer 2 peer network that enables any 2 parties in the world to exchange value over the internet without the need for trust and a central authority.

Was email better than regular mail back in 1990? You needed a $5000 computer and it still took a long time, while a stamp only cost a few cents. What a waste of money, right?

In my eyes, the problem is exactly that bitcoin isn't nothing but an expensive payment network. It is often called a "cryptocurrency", but in my eyes it is a gimmick of an currency, when it doesn't have an independent mechanism for value stabilization. As long as it has to use fiat to give it value, then fiat will still be the only currency in the pair and bitcoin is just the temporal solution to transfer fiat. That is why, in my technical point of view, it is the same to hope for bitcoin to replace fiat then to hope for your car to fly to the moon. In this reality these things just don't have the needed mechanics for the job..
Don't take me as a pessimist by this. I think that in the future we will have an cryptoasset that is able to break this currency boundary and will be able to actually offer an predictable value without the need for the support of fiat value. Trying to wish bitcoin to do this isn't just constructive use of energy. All these false hopes and illusions will only make a big mess and the people who profit for it aren't exactly the good kind.
I also think that you can't compare the e-mail protocol to bitcoin protocol. One is a communication protocol, you can compare it to IRC if you like. Bitcoin is an financial protocol with a lot more complexities and different rule-sets.

As long as you see it as just a payment network, or a financial protocol you will have trouble seeing it's true potential. It is a protocol that enables digital scarcity in a decentralized manner without the need for trust. It allows for hard promises. After a few blocks a transaction is effectively irreversible. So it has to be extremely expensive to 'overwrite history'. I mean overwhelmingly expensive. It's a feature, not a bug.

Will this scale to the entire population. Of course not! Nobody is saying it will not change and evolve. The current implementation is great for a settlement layer while the LN would be used as a payment network.

We have been running out of IPv4 addresses for the last 30+ years, but things still work. People have been hard at work and incrementally IP was able to handle more and more devices (Address Classes, Classless Inter-Domain Routing, NAT, ...). Wink
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February 23, 2018, 09:52:21 AM

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1066312
Coincidentally pops up to discuss things and matters and to debate ideas and opinions.

Can you both come clean now and present your shitcoin. Is it better than ETH? and NEO? Will it change crypto fundamentally?

Lol... A single coin doesn't have the capacity to change crypto ecosystem, it's more of a r(e)volutionary trend, one crypto will trump the other only to pave way for another to outwit it. The cumulative effect is what we would someday look back and applaud.

It's a system; I don't think it's turnkey yet. I don't represent any shitcoin. I believe in 'the system' that's all. ETH and NEO are great cryptos, but without BTC there would not have been a primer to begin with.
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February 23, 2018, 09:54:14 AM

I agree it is the first most simplistic, and it's quite hard for it to deviate from its original consensus plan - a store of value, peer-to-peer electronic cash system that has an in-built decentralised transaction history with high-tech-class security. Nothing more should be expected from it, other than for a scaling function to accommodate mainstream usage; because, I think that's the only thing the developers didn't factor in during the early development phase. But for stability and predictability only a centralised system can achieve such regulatory benchmark.

I think that the development of bitcoin shows genius in software development, but not so much genius in financial implementation. Bitcoin is innovative and complex in the software perspective, but it is childish and silly in financial perspective. Modern economy needs a lot more then bitcoin is able to offer as an practical tool.
The system will always be centralized around something. The software development of bitcoin is centralized around specific people, and the financial markets of bitcoin are centralized around specific organizations and people. As long as there are people, there will always be natural centralization of systems around people who can do things that most others can't. This is not something that should be fought by itself.
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