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Question: When will BTC get back above $70K:
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26457308 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
Wilhelm
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June 18, 2022, 01:50:31 PM

Also, the casino nature of the "crypto" market, leads to great volitility and the association of Bitcoin as a "tech product" has it firmly in step with the Nasdaq chart at times.

Filed under, “Teach people that Bitcoin is not a stock—Bitcoin is nothing like a stock.”  It is a very large file.

Its no secret that bitcoin has been tracking the stock market latelty and becoming more and more intertwined with political and macroeconomic factors,So it may actually be beneficial to treat it as a "stock" as this will allow for better models and price predictions.


On another note: how long do yall  think we can hold this 20k support,and is there any major support under it incase we break it ?

Miner support at 15-17k ranges

Question:

At what point would falling BTC price suppress hashrate sufficiently to make it difficult to reach the next difficulty adjustment?

This has been on my mind since I saw your above-quoted post.  An economic attack on Bitcoin is also a security attack, and a DoS if the price can be crashed fast enough that the network grinds to a halt.  If “TPTB” want to force a switch to POS, this is an interesting feature.

Explaining for newbies, not for phil:  In November 2017, hostile miners attempted the Bcash “flippening”.  Some Bcashers proclaimed they could make it infeasible for Bitcoin to reach the next adjustment.  But Bitcoin’s economics constrained them in the direction opposite of what now concerns me.  They could not afford only to mine Bcash.  They tried to pump the BCH market—it went wild, spiked and then crashed.  That could only work as a pump-and-dump on clueless Bcashers.  The hostile miners had to return to Bitcoin, if they wanted to pay their own bills.

(Some POW altcoins have a DAA that adjusts after every block.  In my casual observation, it seems a little bit unstable; and in theory, I guess it may be easier to game some ways.  Maybe.  I am not an expert on this question—far from it!  But if there is a sudden, drastic loss of hashrate, the remaining hashrate only needs to find ~1 more block for things to begin to return to normal.)

Some miners have low enough energy costs, they could probably keep going at ridiculously low BTC prices.  Flared natural gas, areas with high electricity production and low demand, etc.  But I guess not those in New Jersey.  How much of a % of global hashrate?

I know much of the theory here.  (Including the Poisson process and its exponential distribution of arrival times.  About 99% of Bitcoiners get this wrong, including many forum Legendaries.)  But I have no experience with mining; and mining is in many ways an experiential thing.  Especially the business side of mining.  I would appreciate your insights.

Even with free energy you need to acquire the mining rigs to do the work.
Centralizing all that much rigs might become infeasible.
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June 18, 2022, 02:03:27 PM


Explanation
UnDerDoG81
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June 18, 2022, 02:09:16 PM

Consider selling 20-25% of my Bitcoin. Anyone else? I have this great reset theory and now they introduced the digital USD. Its going into that direction. I start to be worried BTC will end up like Luna, once the panic kicks in? Dumped to 18.6K and nobody is buying WTF.

I am in since 2013 and ever since holded BTC. Never took profits. Never sold. I would go nuts leaving this game without a cent in my pockets after 9 years Cheesy

All these people writing only an idiot would sell at these levels. I remember people were saying the same at 69K while talking about 300K.

Edit: I have gone through 2 bear markets and the covid dump. But never had I felt that dark powers are involved. Unless now. Thats why my worries.

For sake of argument, assume you are right (unlikely). What would you even store the value in that would not be undermined by the reset you are expecting? I'd argue there are none (perhaps gold getting closest to BTC).

At least with BTC protecting it from appropriation is most feasible out of all the options.

Next time price is at a local peak (at least above all the MAs) be sure to sell some so you won't feel like you feel today next time it happens.

Yes, physical gold bought without registration. Still possible where I currently live, if you buy slowly in smaller amounts like 1-2k a day. I dont care about gold price going up. But you can be sure these evils also have a plan for gold as well. Probably making it illegal to own or sell it by law "to protect" humanity from whatever next. Even German mass media started to write that the Euro will die soon and there is no way out.

This is no coincidence and all planned. Who would have expected a crisis the world have never seen before if you lock down the whole world to "protect" people from a cold. This was the most stupid and insane thing the world has ever seen. And 90% took a part in this and supported it. Now we have the results and it not even started yet. Here in Turkey the gas price goes up by 1 Turkish Lira almost every day. 1 liter of gasoline now costs 31 Turkish Lira while the average income is 4200 Turkish Lira and minimum rent for a effed up apartment 1500-2000 TL. 50 liters of gasoline is almost half of the income.
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June 18, 2022, 02:34:30 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), FullNode (1)

OK.  It is time for a Saturday long post.  All you OGs can skip over this.  Because it is stuff you already know.  In fact I am not sure there is ANYONE here that NEEDS to read it.  Oh wait, I do.  Sometimes it is good to go over the basics.

First of all... we have some sacred math we hold to like religious totems... this cAPSLOCK guy, for example has held a belief that Bitcoin has never gone lower than it's previous top in the next cycle, and yet, is that really true?
And Bitcoin, while also down is showing fairly strong support and not doing the sort of draw down we have seen in past bears.  Many are still calling for Bitcoin to do something it never has and pull back to below the last cycle's highs.
This belief seems widespread, however it is false.
Top of April 2013 was $266.
Top of December 2013 was $1170.
Bottom of August 2015 was $160.

And I remember at the time, during the downtrend post December 2013 peak, many people could not envision the price going below 266$ because "the price never went below the last cycle high" (and despite this pattern being true at that time - unlike today, the pattern got broken).

We like to say "No one who has held bitcoin for more than 4 years has lost money."  That's sort of the same thing, right  Is that one true?  Does it really matter?  The basic gist of the idea has held.  Bitcoin is super volatile and goes up and down wildly.

Some status quo economists have declared that bitcoin cannot be used as a currency because of this volatility.  And to be honest, I think the jury is still firmly out on that one.  To be fair I imagine there are a lot of Salvadorians, who would rather be holding their wealth in the USD version of their currency rather than BTC.  And Jack Mallers, perhaps because of his boyish charm, rarely gets called out by even the most hardened maxis for basically using BTC as a USD stablecoin, and perverting the purity that the maxis have been preaching for years.

I think part of the reason for this is he sees what Bitcoin is better than ... well just about anyone.  Saylor sees this too, but it makes maxis mad that they cannot fight the idea because it goes against the doctrine we have all preached for so long.

Mallers sees bitcoin as a payment network, but one built entirely on an open, trust minimized, global system that is ruled by the immutable laws of mathematics.  And what he has done is hack the original idea to use Bitcoin as a way to move value from anywhere to anywhere.  Users of strike don't even have to know it's Bitcoin underneath.  And Strike IS introducing trust in this transaction. If I send you $20 from my studio in Dallas TX, to you on vacation in the Swiss alps to buy you a magnum of Belgian beer what happens is Strike takes the money from my account, turns it into Bitcoin, sends it to Switserland, turns it into Francs and deposits it into the your account.  Basically this is Venmo, or Cash App, but interestingly the trusted third party in this case is Strike.  What is different is the network Strike is using can be used by literally ANYONE on Earth with a cellphone and some data.  Users trust Strike in return for the convenience of the service, and not having to think about LND, CL, or BITCOIND.  But not only can I send a lightning payment from my node to your strike wallet, but I can do the opposite, AND if I want to take ALL the trust out of the equation you and I can both just use Muun.

Very few people call out Mallers for basically introducing trust and banks into the Bitcoin network.  And I think I know why.

Because their arguments are stupid.

Sorry, let me say that a better way.  It is often said that Bitcoin is for enemies.  It is also often said that Silk Road was an early battle test in production for Bitcoin.  Because if criminals can use it then it works, and works without interference.  I have often said that the revolution with Bitcoin is not that you HAVE use it in a trust minimized way, but that you CAN.  Mallers is using the Bitcoin network in a trust minimized way to offer a business that includes some trust that users might want to use.  He gets all the benefits of the open, inclusive monetary network, and passes some of that on to you as a customer.

But no one said you have to use Strike.  I don't  For a host of reasons.  But the point is it is impossible to build an open source ungoverned monetary network, and then tell people "you can't use it that way".  See what I mean?  It does not ruin Bitcoin that Mallers has figured out a way to sell something useful to people with it.  As long as you can make a transaction on the base layer.  As long as you can spin up a lightning node, or run a neutrino light wallet on your phone, or even a Liquid server  then it is still working as intended.

But Mallers sees a value in the network that has... deep breath here... NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PRICE OF BITCOIN.  His service will work 1BTC = 20 houses or 1BTC = stick of gum.  As long as we can put enough digits after the decimal point we will be able to denominate the value of anything.  Instead of printing more money to supply the need for commerce (the current system of the world) we just divide up this perfectly scarce asset further.

I remember when that light bulb went on for me: One hidden beauty of Bitcoin is that even though  we cant change how much of it there is, we CAN keep dividing it up into more and more pieces.  Some idiots have even pointed and called that inflation.  Yes.  Cut my pizza into 35 pieces please, because I want more!  So in a way we CAN make "more Bitcoin". to satisfy the needs of a growing population, and more and more use of the asset.

Humans change how they value things.  And we are evidently f*%king while we do that because there are just a hair under 8 BILLION of us now.  The way the current system works is it keeps making more money so more people can have money and we will all have enough to use it.  And an advantage to this system is what I mentioned up above.  The planners can control the rate of creation to keep the price of milk fairly stable. Oh, and take their entirely reasonable cut for themselves and their friends.

Well... yeah.  Problems there.

And that has been the argument against hard money for longer than bitcoin has been around.  Without those valves the price will go up and down wildly.  Velocity will decrease because people are incentivized to hold it. And so on...  Therefore, Bitcoin cannot be money.

That argument has merit.  Bitcoin DOES go up and down wildly.  Hello? 19k?  But the conclusion that it cannot be used as money because of this?  Or that people won't spend it for ... reasons?  That has yet to be seen.  When the Federal Reserve bank took us off the gold standard we entered an imperfect, but good enough experiment of Keynesian economics.  When Satoshi spun up Bitcoin he launched a completely perfect Austrian system.  The fact that it exists is enough to see if the experiment will work.  Never more than 21mm. But 2,100,000,000,000,000,000 (2.1E+18) millisatoshis.  Enough for every human alive to have more than 250,000,000 mSats.

The cost of the security of that unchanging number is price volatility.  Period.  No way around it.  We are giving up that feature of the Keynesian fiat system with this experiment.  This is particularly true in the bootstrapping phase.  But it will ALWAYS be somewhat true.  Because we will keep making more people, and other things will keep changing.

So, back to Mallers.  He saw a way that Bitcoin could work and no one have to worry about that volatility.  We have always known that the various advantages of alt coins would eventually be absorbed by King Daddy.  And Mallers basically rendered Ripple useless in one fell swoop.  And with the introduction of protocols like Taro and OmniBOLT we will see the ability for stablecoins to be issued on and transacted across the lightning network.

We purists are frightened by this.  I get it... I am not sure I want to issue token on any part of the Bitcoin network.  Though, it has been done before (Omni and Counterparty) and there are reasons we want this, as humans.  It IS going to happen whether we like it or not.  And it might not work, but it sure looks like it will.

Thing is you will not be FORCED to use it, but there are reasons many would WANT to.

Now back to the price.

What happens as Strike grows, and Cash App starts to do some of the same things by using the legacy system less and less, and doing value movement of lightning network more and more.  What happens when other countries start using the lightning network whether or not it is legal tender.  Africans can see why this is better than mPesa.  Well as more people are using it more people will need it.

And we will need more of it.

But wait, cAPS.  We can't HAVE more of it, right?  Right.  Not in the physical sense.  But 10 satoshis weighs exactly the same as1000 satoshis, or 1 mSat.  The math does the work for us.  We don't need a federal reserve printing more because people NEED more and because we want to keep prices stable.  We will just keep cutting the pieces smaller and smaller.

And instead of leeching value out of the pockets of the poor into the pockets of the people behind the charade, Everyone gets more value for what they hold as the system grows.

Eventually all the folks using the 2nd and 3rd layers systems will realize that it is good for them to hold some of the underlying asset themselves.

So here is the point of all those letters up there:

If Bitcoin continues to work, it MUST become more valuable.  Period.

Hang in there OGs.  Smiley   We are gonna be just fine.
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June 18, 2022, 02:42:04 PM
Merited by LoyceV (2), cAPSLOCK (1), _javi_ (1), tadamichi (1)

The bitcoin price between here and wherever the fuck it is going to find a bottom is completely fake and irrelevant.

Exchange owner whales can naked short with exchange/miner friend's re-hypothecated coins and non-existent fake coins for as long as they want.

The only thing they have to consider is potentially destroying their own future business (and that of their miner friends) if they push the price too low.
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June 18, 2022, 02:49:54 PM

One big reason for the inflation is that supply is disrupted.

Supply is not just being 'disrupted', it is straight up being shrunk on purpose. For many things the supply will never again go back to pre-Covid levels, at least not for a very long time. People think supply will resume and thus plentiful, cheaper goods are going to come bouncing back here soon... news flash, they won't.

And everyone top to bottom is in on it. As a side note, I was watching a Jim Cramer video clip on CNBC today, and caught him muttering to another talking head, "Well, you know, the Fed would like to see companies cut back on producing so much... that's why they're doing what they're doing." He *actually* said that on air.

My mouth dropped open. I was like, WTAF did I just hear?? So the Fed is now dictating or directing how much 'supply' of goods and services corporations will produce, by throttling the Fed funds rate.

Wow, just wow.

If I only think about what humanity should do to mitigate climate change, then producing less stuff, and making it closer to the consumer, is a good thing. I'm not sure there is any plan for higher ups to do this, and especially not at the Fed, I'm not sure what Cramer is smoking.

The Fed's role (and the ECB) is first and foremost to control inflation, and after a decade of not having to do anything about it as it was low, now is the time to do something for them. Too bad that inflation isn't linked to things that the tool of interest rates can solve, so their actions will probably not tame inflation (or not enough), but there will be other consequences.

What it means for BTC, I don't know. Yesterday I had a bad feeling about hodling 20K, and this morning we dipped below...
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June 18, 2022, 02:50:44 PM
Merited by Torque (1)

Shows that the price is high mostly because of wall street fuckboys rather than it’s fundamental principles..

It should be booming right now if it’s price was based on the merits of its fundamentals.. Anti inflation, anti war, anti government, etc..

But it’s dumping because the price is mostly pumped by the idiots that believe in everything Bitcoin stands against..

I hope they loose their asses and sell the bottom..
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June 18, 2022, 02:53:22 PM

The bitcoin price between here and wherever the fuck it is going to find a bottom is completely fake and irrelevant.

Exchange owner whales can naked short with exchange/miner friend's re-hypothecated coins and non-existent fake coins for as long as they want.

The only thing they have to consider is potentially destroying their own future business (and that of their miner friends) if they push the price too low.

Looks like You are much angry 😡 on the repetated Market and Community Behavior and me to is the part of This all Shity Analysis and reports Movement thats all is scrap.

Reality is You and me can't control anything who can is already controlling the CEX they are grinding Cheep BTCs from us by liquidation and Panic Blood bath now Minners turn they are selling high to recover losses somehow but I don't know how.
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June 18, 2022, 02:54:38 PM

The Fed's role (and the ECB) is first and foremost to control inflation, and after a decade of not having to do anything about it as it was low, now is the time to do something for them.

The Fed actually CREATED the insane inflation that we are seeing by printing 30+% of all U.S. fiat in existence in less that a year and shoving that out into the world.

And now they supposedly want to tame the inflation they themselves created? They can fuck off.

All they are going to do by raising rates is finally get the massive global layoffs they didn't get with Covid and pushing mandatory vaccines.

All by design.
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June 18, 2022, 02:55:47 PM
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For sake of argument, assume you are right (unlikely). What would you even store the value in that would not be undermined by the reset you are expecting? I'd argue there are none (perhaps gold getting closest to BTC).
I also thought about this, in this case the most unconfiscatable asset will probably win. If gold is to be made illegal, it will be even harder and more dangerous to transport it, than it already is now. Also it’s an terrible unit of account, so good luck paying smaller amounts. You would need to store and hide it, till this bs would be over.

Yes, physical gold bought without registration. Still possible where I currently live, if you buy slowly in smaller amounts like 1-2k a day. I dont care about gold price going up. But you can be sure these evils also have a plan for gold as well. Probably making it illegal to own or sell it by law "to protect" humanity from whatever next. Even German mass media started to write that the Euro will die soon and there is no way out.

This is no coincidence and all planned. Who would have expected a crisis the world have never seen before if you lock down the whole world to "protect" people from a cold. This was the most stupid and insane thing the world has ever seen. And 90% took a part in this and supported it. Now we have the results and it not even started yet. Here in Turkey the gas price goes up by 1 Turkish Lira almost every day. 1 liter of gasoline now costs 31 Turkish Lira while the average income is 4200 Turkish Lira and minimum rent for a effed up apartment 1500-2000 TL. 50 liters of gasoline is almost half of the income.
But relax they can’t forbid everything, in case of cbdcs, Bitcoin will be godsend, where you can still transact freely. Also authoritarians forget that they can’t control everything, and that prohibitions just create thriving black markets. Just look at the prohibition in the 1920s or that even prison has its own currency in form of cigarettes and other things. The economics are on our side, because people would just move into shadow economies, and it won’t be time to make money elsewhere(it’s similar to communism). If what you’re expecting becomes true, it won’t be the time for investors anyways, and bitcoin would still be ur best bet.
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June 18, 2022, 02:58:52 PM

Consider selling 20-25% of my Bitcoin. Anyone else? I have this great reset theory and now they introduced the digital USD. Its going into that direction. I start to be worried BTC will end up like Luna, once the panic kicks in? Dumped to 18.6K and nobody is buying WTF.

I am in since 2013 and ever since holded BTC. Never took profits. Never sold. I would go nuts leaving this game without a cent in my pockets after 9 years Cheesy

All these people writing only an idiot would sell at these levels. I remember people were saying the same at 69K while talking about 300K.

Edit: I have gone through 2 bear markets and the covid dump. But never had I felt that dark powers are involved. Unless now. Thats why my worries.

For sake of argument, assume you are right (unlikely). What would you even store the value in that would not be undermined by the reset you are expecting? I'd argue there are none (perhaps gold getting closest to BTC).

At least with BTC protecting it from appropriation is most feasible out of all the options.

Next time price is at a local peak (at least above all the MAs) be sure to sell some so you won't feel like you feel today next time it happens.

Yes, physical gold bought without registration. Still possible where I currently live, if you buy slowly in smaller amounts like 1-2k a day. I dont care about gold price going up. But you can be sure these evils also have a plan for gold as well. Probably making it illegal to own or sell it by law "to protect" humanity from whatever next. Even German mass media started to write that the Euro will die soon and there is no way out.

This is no coincidence and all planned. Who would have expected a crisis the world have never seen before if you lock down the whole world to "protect" people from a cold. This was the most stupid and insane thing the world has ever seen. And 90% took a part in this and supported it. Now we have the results and it not even started yet. Here in Turkey the gas price goes up by 1 Turkish Lira almost every day. 1 liter of gasoline now costs 31 Turkish Lira while the average income is 4200 Turkish Lira and minimum rent for a effed up apartment 1500-2000 TL. 50 liters of gasoline is almost half of the income.

The lockdowns didn't cause issues in most parts of the world. It's only China continuing to do it one year after everyone else has stopped that is screwing us all. The worst part of this is that the Chinese government doesn't even care about its people, usually. Millions can die without them batting an eye. They only do this for some ridiculous pride.

Now Turkey, well, look at what your government is doing (and by that I mean Erdogan, as he's taken control of the central bank). Printing money like there is no tomorrow, long after the crisis has past, and despite many warnings from economists to stop it.
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June 18, 2022, 02:59:35 PM
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Hey, sorry guys, forgot to put it on my calendar. When's the $10k party?
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June 18, 2022, 03:01:42 PM

The Fed's role (and the ECB) is first and foremost to control inflation, and after a decade of not having to do anything about it as it was low, now is the time to do something for them.

The Fed actually CREATED the insane inflation that we are seeing by printing 30+% of all U.S. fiat in existence in less that a year and shoving that out into the world.

And now they supposedly want to tame the inflation they themselves created? They can fuck off.

All they are going to do by raising rates is finally get the massive global layoffs they didn't get with Covid and pushing mandatory vaccines.

All by design.

Why would the Fed, a bunch of bankers, care about vaccines, or want layoffs ? What's in it for them ?
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June 18, 2022, 03:04:58 PM


Explanation
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June 18, 2022, 03:05:29 PM
Merited by vapourminer (3), Hueristic (1), JayJuanGee (1), DdmrDdmr (1), strawbs (1), tadamichi (1)

I think it is EXTREMELY interesting and possibly important that this is what the mempool looks like:



Seems both good and bad.

Just like the rise to 60k+ the fall back to here (and further?) is NOT because of retail.  So why IS it happening?  Who is doing the selling, and where?  I think Torques post above is relevant.  Some ideas:

-This is absolute proof of rehypothication.  Coins are not even being traded on chain in significant amounts.
-Retail may or may not be buying or selling.  But they are NOT taking custody.
-The businesses BUILT on paper bitcoin are dying in SPITE of the above.

Thing is those people are using the tried and true fiat system tricks to churn value out of the system.  But bitcoin is different than the fiat system so they are getting ruined by it one by one.  This hurts the entire ecosystem, really.  But it is 100% necessary.

This is what I hope we end up seeing:

1.  People trusting scammers with their bitcoin will lose it.
2.  Then More and more people will begin to take custody of their bitcoin, or at least trust a custodian that is not lying.  
3.  The scammy paper trading services will get liquidated.
4.  GOTO 1

This is a vicious cycle with a virtuous end effect.
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June 18, 2022, 03:13:51 PM
Last edit: June 18, 2022, 03:29:54 PM by Torque

The Fed's role (and the ECB) is first and foremost to control inflation, and after a decade of not having to do anything about it as it was low, now is the time to do something for them.

The Fed actually CREATED the insane inflation that we are seeing by printing 30+% of all U.S. fiat in existence in less that a year and shoving that out into the world.

And now they supposedly want to tame the inflation they themselves created? They can fuck off.

All they are going to do by raising rates is finally get the massive global layoffs they didn't get with Covid and pushing mandatory vaccines.

All by design.

Why would the Fed, a bunch of bankers, care about vaccines, or want layoffs ? What's in it for them ?

1. Fed's friends are the world's billionaires who own all the mega corporations around the world.

2. Mass layoffs = lower overhead costs for corporations, layoffs = demand destruction, demand destruction reduces input costs for goods, reduces number of goods created, stabilizes consumer goods price inflation (supposedly, haven't seen that yet) and increases corporate net profits.

3. Mass layoffs also = reduction in rising salary pressures for corporations due to inflation.

Making mega corporations more profitable, and thus making their wealthy elite buddies happy. THAT is what is in it for them. They could give a shit about low unemployment.

If you think that full citizen employment is the Fed's mandate, then this ongoing chart would like to have a word with you:
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-labor-force-participation-rate.htm
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June 18, 2022, 03:21:33 PM

Did Bitcoin die today?  Cheesy
1. yes
2. no
cAPSLOCK
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Whimsical Pants


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June 18, 2022, 03:30:04 PM

If i were not in such dire financial circumstance I would be placing a large buy ~18200.

I think we will see a strong bounce right around there (a little under).  Of course I would love to see one sooner.
suchmoon
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https://bpip.org


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June 18, 2022, 03:35:58 PM
Merited by Hueristic (1), Arriemoller (1)

Arriemoller may like this:

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vapourminer
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what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?


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June 18, 2022, 03:37:44 PM

Hey, sorry guys, forgot to put it on my calendar. When's the $10k party?

this afternoon i think
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