piotr_n
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aka tonikt
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June 17, 2012, 08:06:38 PM |
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Are you guys basically saying that because of evorhees and his shitty gambling service all miners are getting 10% less income for some strange reason ? Personally, I am not saying that this is the reason. I'm only saying that from the data I got the number of orphaned blocks mined out by Eligius went up from ~1% in the past months to over 12% in June. Why - it's not up to me to figure it out.
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Check out gocoin - my original project of full bitcoin node & cold wallet written in Go.PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB 9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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bulanula
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June 17, 2012, 08:07:52 PM |
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Are you guys basically saying that because of evorhees and his shitty gambling service all miners are getting 10% less income for some strange reason ? Personally, I am not saying that this is the reason. I'm not saying that from the data I got the number of orphaned blocks mined out by Eligius went up from ~1% in the past months to over 12% in June. Why - it's not up to me to figure it out. Yeah. After thinking about it, it seems that SatoshiDice actually proves Satoshi failed with his ideas as BTC cannot possibly scale. But the mining income dropping is not fun
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piotr_n
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Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
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June 17, 2012, 08:14:07 PM |
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Yeah. After thinking about it, it seems that SatoshiDice actually proves Satoshi failed with his ideas as BTC cannot possibly scale. Oh, I wouldn't quite agree with this statement. It does still work - just causing an incredible increase of the number of orphaned blocks. Sort of a reward deprecation from the 50 BTC to.. something less, which was not planned in the initial design
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Check out gocoin - my original project of full bitcoin node & cold wallet written in Go.PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB 9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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bulanula
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June 17, 2012, 08:22:34 PM |
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Yeah. After thinking about it, it seems that SatoshiDice actually proves Satoshi failed with his ideas as BTC cannot possibly scale. Oh, I wouldn't quite agree with this statement. It does still work - just causing an incredible increase of the number of orphaned blocks. Sort of a reward deprecation from the 50 BTC to.. something less, which was not planned in the initial design Yeah. I still think this is a problem. Are the developers acknowledging this or not ? This is causing more orphans and more stales for everyone mining
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coinft
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June 17, 2012, 08:32:14 PM |
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Yeah. After thinking about it, it seems that SatoshiDice actually proves Satoshi failed with his ideas as BTC cannot possibly scale. Oh, I wouldn't quite agree with this statement. It does still work - just causing an incredible increase of the number of orphaned blocks. Sort of a reward deprecation from the 50 BTC to.. something less, which was not planned in the initial design My guess is this is not true. As many valid blocks get mined as planned. We get orphans in addition, because we are not informed about some valid blocks fast enough. Without the orphans less hashing power would be wasted, the difficulty would be higher, and exactly the same amount of blocks would be mined in total. This assumes all pools and miners have the same problem.
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muyuu
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June 17, 2012, 08:44:49 PM |
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Bad luck alone cannot explain the results of late. It's statistically absurd, reminds me of the Dilbert comic about the random number generator always saying 7,7,7,7,7...
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GPG ID: 7294199D - OTC ID: muyuu (470F97EB7294199D) forum tea fund BTC 1Epv7KHbNjYzqYVhTCgXWYhGSkv7BuKGEU DOGE DF1eTJ2vsxjHpmmbKu9jpqsrg5uyQLWksM CAP F1MzvmmHwP2UhFq82NQT7qDU9NQ8oQbtkQ
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jl2012
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June 18, 2012, 03:16:07 AM |
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Yeah. After thinking about it, it seems that SatoshiDice actually proves Satoshi failed with his ideas as BTC cannot possibly scale. Oh, I wouldn't quite agree with this statement. It does still work - just causing an incredible increase of the number of orphaned blocks. Sort of a reward deprecation from the 50 BTC to.. something less, which was not planned in the initial design Yeah. I still think this is a problem. Are the developers acknowledging this or not ? This is causing more orphans and more stales for everyone mining Unless the tx fee is so high which could compensate the orphans, miner will start to reject tx like what Eligius doing. Eligius is simply putting the burden on other miners and increase their orphan rate. Although I agree SD is abusing the network, a successful BTC network should be able to handle 1000x of current volume. If SD is a stress test, the network is failed. It means the network cannot grow further. Without changing the current infrastructure, there are 3 options: 1. Miners will allow only a limited number of tx in a block, but this may leave some tx never confirmed and BTC is dead; 2. Increase the tx fee by 10x or even 100x; 3. A revised tx fee formula to punish people using coins with <3 confirmation. All these solutions, however, would be short-term. If more people use BTC (which most of us want to see), the same problem will emerge again. If this could not be solved, this will be a major bottleneck of the whole system.
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Donation address: 374iXxS4BuqFHsEwwxUuH3nvJ69Y7Hqur3 (Bitcoin ONLY) LRDGENPLYrcTRssGoZrsCT1hngaH3BVkM4 (LTC) PGP: D3CC 1772 8600 5BB8 FF67 3294 C524 2A1A B393 6517
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eleuthria
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June 18, 2012, 03:48:30 AM Last edit: June 18, 2012, 05:25:32 AM by eleuthria |
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Unless the tx fee is so high which could compensate the orphans, miner will start to reject tx like what Eligius doing. Eligius is simply putting the burden on other miners and increase their orphan rate.
Although I agree SD is abusing the network, a successful BTC network should be able to handle 1000x of current volume. If SD is a stress test, the network is failed. It means the network cannot grow further.
Without changing the current infrastructure, there are 3 options: 1. Miners will allow only a limited number of tx in a block, but this may leave some tx never confirmed and BTC is dead; 2. Increase the tx fee by 10x or even 100x; 3. A revised tx fee formula to punish people using coins with <3 confirmation.
All these solutions, however, would be short-term. If more people use BTC (which most of us want to see), the same problem will emerge again. If this could not be solved, this will be a major bottleneck of the whole system.
Actually, the TX fee used to be much higher (0.01 per KB vs 0.0005). It was reduced to 1/ 20020th it's original size after last summer's bubble. At this point, txfees are almost meaningless because of that decision. To process credit cards, you're looking at percentage fees, in addition to $0.05 to $0.30 per transaction, depending on volume and your system's ability to run the transactions in batches and the volume of transactions you process daily. Right now, the txfees are pointless. They don't even amount to a penny per TX in most cases. That's why I actually agree with what Luke has done. It is not SD's fault, they are following the rules that were changed because the developers were being pressured by the community last summer when TX fees were "becoming too big" because the price was $20-30 for a few weeks. However, even at the peak value and 0.01 per KB, they were almost always cheaper than what would be charged by any credit card/payment processor. If the fees were still 0.01, this wouldn't be a problem. The fees would be adding enough to each block to make up for the higher risk of orphans. Of course, it would also probably kill SatoshiDice because the fees would be a much larger portion of the bets. Not that Bitcoin should be kept in this state for SatoshiDice. I don't ever recall Bitcoin being marketed as a micropayment system. And even if fees were bumped back up to 0.01, this doesn't mean everybody is suddenly paying high fees. The network is designed to give priority to large transfers of highly confirmed coins. The only people that would feel the change are those sending coins just after receiving them, or sending extremely small amounts of coins [or paying with a "bag of pennies" in change].
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RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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Clipse
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June 18, 2012, 03:55:55 AM |
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Satoshi dice have 50-100BTC per flip bets, sure as hell they could manage fine with 0.01 BTC fees
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...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> ClipseWe pay miners at 130% PPS | Signup here : Bonus PPS Pool (Please read OP to understand the current process)
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eleuthria
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June 18, 2012, 04:06:57 AM |
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Satoshi dice have 50-100BTC per flip bets, sure as hell they could manage fine with 0.01 BTC fees The max bet is only 5 BTC on SD right now (has been for a while). And if you look at their stats, the vast majority of bets are under 0.10 BTC. Bumping the fee to 0.01 would likely kill off most of SD's business (which right now is probably mostly made up of martingale bots). Still, I'm starting to think Deepbit's decision to stick to the old fee structure may have been a good one.
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RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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Clipse
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June 18, 2012, 04:26:49 AM |
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Well looking at the bigwins bets, at some point they allowed much higher bets and I dont se why they wont allow that again considering ppl enjoy throwing money away. Here is a list of the bigwin big bets.
Details 2012-06-03 11:00:18 lessthan 6000 c6d4eec1 4ca2f368 16E6Lbm CONFIRMED 100.00000000 WIN 1070.92083333 3213 Details 2012-06-02 20:01:08 lessthan 16000 ef9792c0 58971564 1H8yth1 CONFIRMED 80.00000000 WIN 321.52590000 13091 Details 2012-06-03 05:55:05 lessthan 24000 ca0a7568 7fac902f 1Dz3WA7 CONFIRMED 100.00000000 WIN 268.10483333 18133 Details 2012-05-23 01:01:53 lessthan 24000 24b7d746 93d9e744 1FK6aLb CONFIRMED 100.00000000 WIN 268.10483333 18158 Details 2012-06-01 00:12:53 lessthan 24000 89c5c550 06764306 1Pf5VTb CONFIRMED 76.80000000 WIN 205.90439600 1641 Details 2012-05-23 20:49:21 lessthan 12000 94fda443 e8a51611 1M5XaBu CONFIRMED 26.00000000 WIN 139.28427333 10755 Details 2012-05-20 06:38:02 lessthan 32000 1b0c6565 b1046f77 1FECe7o CONFIRMED 107.75060000 WIN 216.79801722 4266 Details 2012-05-04 17:16:52 lessthan 24000 4968982c 907ac27f 17A7Zq9 CONFIRMED 61.00000000 WIN 165.20833333 979 Details 2012-05-07 13:52:07 lessthan 24000 8f12d467 2563d180 1APj1tg CONFIRMED 61.00000000 WIN 165.20833333 3259 Details 2012-05-17 01:24:08 lessthan 32000 92d6a8c1 a7198565 18wQDCk CONFIRMED 100.35000000 WIN 203.46163200 26206
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...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> ClipseWe pay miners at 130% PPS | Signup here : Bonus PPS Pool (Please read OP to understand the current process)
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jl2012
Legendary
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Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
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June 18, 2012, 05:18:03 AM |
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Unless the tx fee is so high which could compensate the orphans, miner will start to reject tx like what Eligius doing. Eligius is simply putting the burden on other miners and increase their orphan rate.
Although I agree SD is abusing the network, a successful BTC network should be able to handle 1000x of current volume. If SD is a stress test, the network is failed. It means the network cannot grow further.
Without changing the current infrastructure, there are 3 options: 1. Miners will allow only a limited number of tx in a block, but this may leave some tx never confirmed and BTC is dead; 2. Increase the tx fee by 10x or even 100x; 3. A revised tx fee formula to punish people using coins with <3 confirmation.
All these solutions, however, would be short-term. If more people use BTC (which most of us want to see), the same problem will emerge again. If this could not be solved, this will be a major bottleneck of the whole system.
Actually, the TX fee used to be much higher (0.01 per KB vs 0.0005). It was reduced to 1/200th it's original size after last summer's bubble. At this point, txfees are almost meaningless because of that decision. To process credit cards, you're looking at percentage fees, in addition to $0.05 to $0.30 per transaction, depending on volume and your system's ability to run the transactions in batches and the volume of transactions you process daily. Right now, the txfees are pointless. They don't even amount to a penny per TX in most cases. That's why I actually agree with what Luke has done. It is not SD's fault, they are following the rules that were changed because the developers were being pressured by the community last summer when TX fees were "becoming too big" because the price was $20-30 for a few weeks. However, even at the peak value and 0.01 per KB, they were almost always cheaper than what would be charged by any credit card/payment processor. If the fees were still 0.01, this wouldn't be a problem. The fees would be adding enough to each block to make up for the higher risk of orphans. Of course, it would also probably kill SatoshiDice because the fees would be a much larger portion of the bets. Not that Bitcoin should be kept in this state for SatoshiDice. I don't ever recall Bitcoin being marketed as a micropayment system. And even if fees were bumped back up to 0.01, this doesn't mean everybody is suddenly paying high fees. The network is designed to give priority to large transfers of highly confirmed coins. The only people that would feel the change are those sending coins just after receiving them, or sending extremely small amounts of coins [or paying with a "bag of pennies" in change]. It's only 1/20th, not 1/200th Transparency of the BTC tx fee system is actually quite low. Although the client will provide a "standard" rate, you will never know if it will be accepted or not. I think the major pools should publish their fee schedule/rules. Fee should be decided by the market, not the devs. BTC may not be marketed as a micropayment system, but it has a good potential to be one. Tx fee of 0.01BTC may work a this moment. Pushing the tx fee to 0.3USD (0.01*30USD at the peak) will just kill any sub-dollar tx, or force them out of the blockchain (what SD suggested to do). (OK, may be I should start a BTC micropayment service) Is it possible to improve the protocol, so we could tolerate SD-type tx while keeping the fee low?
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Donation address: 374iXxS4BuqFHsEwwxUuH3nvJ69Y7Hqur3 (Bitcoin ONLY) LRDGENPLYrcTRssGoZrsCT1hngaH3BVkM4 (LTC) PGP: D3CC 1772 8600 5BB8 FF67 3294 C524 2A1A B393 6517
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organofcorti
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Poor impulse control.
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June 18, 2012, 06:24:21 AM |
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If all the mined blocks are there - then you must be right like hell. http://pastebin.com/mb14R9nR0% of orphaned blocks in January 1.0% in February 1.4% in March 0% in April 2.3% in May (though first one on the 13th) 12.7% in June How did you get the orphans from that link? I couldn't see anything in the directory indicating whther or not the block orphaned. Well done though!
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piotr_n
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aka tonikt
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June 18, 2012, 08:49:45 AM |
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How did you get the orphans from that link? I couldn't see anything in the directory indicating whther or not the block orphaned. Well done though!
First I tried to use blockchain.info and parse the html looking for a green "Main chain"... but the server blocked my ip after the fist few hundreds of rows, so it didnt get me far So I had to fetch the actual block-chain from my client, using: "getblocks", parse "inv", repeat.. and then compare the mined blocks list, against the fetched chain. In other words, the directory gives a list like this: 0000000000000a0bb1e12a5bd988c6b1c887afacd5a22050e54f03b9f97254a7 15-Mar-2012 02:58 120K 0000000000000a04a64e7a78b31c0a15f155c6530dd3ccbc8d24177b8e0082a9 09-Feb-2012 22:42 89K 0000000000000a1f3b8b9c7b05ad381704e061adc293a6b9c01f847530ed8b00 08-May-2012 08:46 180K 0000000000000a2a686bd26e12427f808128ec0c27ca8c3405cd48221c023693 01-Mar-2012 23:19 108K 0000000000000a2e219fddcad303da476afc432ec6e478f2040bbf6d0792803c 05-Apr-2012 03:56 142K 0000000000000a3b42c84ee50e137485641abcb6d7eb33964dbbabc744ad21b7 09-Mar-2012 05:56 114K ... ... and then you have the actual chain: 000000000000066c6e629b2fb49c7fcc52b82fe9833f328e0c3943856facf231 160000 00000000000008754857069b7a1df3acd1643a7ffe1623eceebcb7346ffd6a63 160001 0000000000000320ae4ff160201e80592869b4e09844764455105cbe19fbb9d2 160002 ... 000000000000002f88943806d0025389e540a356077f5f4667a725bfc0a663c2 185006 00000000000009f70f52e54bb6939365c8d33324fa1aa80e7c1cae17f2324a1f 185007 000000000000068b678282b2ec7d5e3f17add5ce1cc3dcf71d6f48ffbb9bc896 185008 ... and whatever was in the first list, but not in the second, I assumed orphaned.
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Check out gocoin - my original project of full bitcoin node & cold wallet written in Go.PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB 9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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organofcorti
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Poor impulse control.
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June 18, 2012, 09:19:42 AM |
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Clever. Nice work
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John (John K.)
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Away on an extended break
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June 18, 2012, 10:41:34 AM |
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Just noticed my spare balance of ~0.21 is still here despite the fact that I've never mined to it for almost two months. How long do the 'extra credit' mode last?
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Luke-Jr (OP)
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June 18, 2012, 01:27:29 PM |
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Just noticed my spare balance of ~0.21 is still here despite the fact that I've never mined to it for almost two months. How long do the 'extra credit' mode last? Until we get back to the positive side of luck. If you stop mining, it's possible you might get to zero sooner, though.
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John (John K.)
Global Troll-buster and
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Activity: 1288
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Away on an extended break
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June 18, 2012, 02:04:17 PM |
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Just noticed my spare balance of ~0.21 is still here despite the fact that I've never mined to it for almost two months. How long do the 'extra credit' mode last? Until we get back to the positive side of luck. If you stop mining, it's possible you might get to zero sooner, though. My balance is at 1 satoshi for more then a week now. Is that counted as approximately zero?
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Luke-Jr (OP)
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June 18, 2012, 02:07:56 PM |
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Just noticed my spare balance of ~0.21 is still here despite the fact that I've never mined to it for almost two months. How long do the 'extra credit' mode last? Until we get back to the positive side of luck. If you stop mining, it's possible you might get to zero sooner, though. My balance is at 1 satoshi for more then a week now. Is that counted as approximately zero? How did that happen? Link?
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John (John K.)
Global Troll-buster and
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Activity: 1288
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Away on an extended break
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June 18, 2012, 02:15:34 PM |
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