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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 865083 times)
cedivad
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March 15, 2014, 06:17:26 PM
 #8421

Pete Morici for example is suing them in court, instead of going with AAA/JAMS. That's a breach of the contract.
It really depends on the strategy you are following. (Morici states that the contract was sent to him one week after his purchase; by email).
Posted from Bitcointa.lk - #PrO8XVnUfBUyTgW7

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Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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ninjarobot
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March 15, 2014, 07:10:52 PM
 #8422

HashFast's behavior has been completely unacceptable by any measure. The fact that they seem to be getting away with it irks me to no end.

The bottom line is that money is power.
A pre-order is you giving that power to a counterparty based on trust, promises and a sales contract.
The counterparty can decide to default on their contract/promises and proceed to use that power against you.
HF has been doing exactly that by hiring Strategic Counsel Corp. and Zuber Lawler & Del Duca.

gmaxwell
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March 15, 2014, 09:23:27 PM
 #8423

Pete Morici for example is suing them in court, instead of going with AAA/JAMS. That's a breach of the contract.
It really depends on the strategy you are following. (Morici states that the contract was sent to him one week after his purchase; by email).
Posted from Bitcointa.lk - #PrO8XVnUfBUyTgW7
It was also sent to me in email after my first purchase too, after a couple days delay. If they sent it to him at the same time they sent it to him it would have been a long time after his purchase. But I accepted the agreement and later— after HF had continued to say they were on-time for a few more weeks— made another purchase.  I could probably also make Morici's argument— that October 20th was the only relevant date— for my first purchase... but I'm really trying to give hashfast every bit of slack: Business is hard. But being screwed over even after giving them the benefit of doubt on ambiguity about which terms were actually in effect stinks.

Sadly, if HF is run as incompetently as they appear to be there likely will be nothing to recover. Getting a larger fraction of what they owe me at the expense of causing a complete loss for people making purchases now (under newer, even crapper terms) doesn't really strike me as the right thing to do, at least personally. I don't fault other people for forcing hashfash to comply with the agreement though. The fault rests exclusively on hashfast if they drafted a contract of adhesion that they couldn't live up to themselves.

Bitcoin will not be compromised
gmaxwell
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March 15, 2014, 09:25:33 PM
 #8424

The bottom line is that money is power.
Well, hey, some of us still have money here, and their 90%-100% losses on HF so far haven't left them broke.  Is there some slot where I can insert money and receive justice? I too am unhappy with them getting away with the fraud— even more so than my financial loss. I'm willing to double down on my losses if I was reasonably confident that the result would be them not getting away with it, because I'm very concerned with the long term effects on the mining ecosystem if its possible for hardware vendors to freely get away with fraud. What I don't have an abundance of is time.

I was thinking of perhaps funding some bounties for things like most effective community action to prevent others from getting defrauded by hashfast, but I'm not sure I have time to administer it— and esp. in terms of figuring how how to convince people that I'm being serious when I say that I really don't want anything illegal done.

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cedivad
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March 15, 2014, 09:26:58 PM
 #8425

Just out of curiosity, you stated in the other thread that your deadline was the 31 of January. Batch 1 deadline was the 31 of December, so you are batch 2, right?
In the case of Morici, HashFast had another ToS live in their website, not the one that they retroactively imposed to batch 1 customers.

A few people in this thread ordered with the first, non recognized version (see: http://hashfast.org/Terms_of_Sale/8_August_2013 and the ToS was later unilaterally changed to: http://hashfast.org/Terms_of_Sale/25_August_2013).

Useless to note, HashFast is denying this detail.
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My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
gmaxwell
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March 15, 2014, 09:31:37 PM
 #8426

Just out of curiosity, you stated in the other thread that your deadline was the 31 of January. Batch 1 deadline was the 31 of December, so you are batch 2, right?
Gah no. I started to type January 1st and then realized the actual date was Dec 31st and didn't fix the month. My purchases were August 14th and September 1st, both Batch 1. (thanks for pointing that out, I fixed it)

They sent the revised terms to me on 08/21. I just personally consider them binding both due to the second purchase and because I talked to them after, considered immediately demanding a refund but didn't— because frankly the revised terms seemed more realistic to me... I was worried that they'd be a day late and get slammed with refunds and that didn't strike me as fair or wise. So if anything the contract revision increased my confidence... how foolish I was.

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ImI
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March 15, 2014, 09:31:53 PM
 #8427

HashFast's behavior has been completely unacceptable by any measure. The fact that they seem to be getting away with it irks me to no end.

The bottom line is that money is power.
A pre-order is you giving that power to a counterparty based on trust, promises and a sales contract.
The counterparty can decide to default on their contract/promises and proceed to use that power against you.
HF has been doing exactly that by hiring Strategic Counsel Corp. and Zuber Lawler & Del Duca.



The bottom line is that the law isnt up to date when it comes to bitcoin and especially bitcoin mining.

Bitcoin mining is a very complicated situation when it comes to refunds and delivery dates etc and there is simply no law speaking yet that takes care of this.

So HF is basically misusing the traditional law of customer protection to fraud their customers, cause in a usual customer protection situation there is nothing wrong with offering a US$ refund.

So there is a gap in lawmaking and HF is using this gap to commit fraud.
gmaxwell
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March 15, 2014, 09:35:40 PM
 #8428

So there is a gap in lawmaking and HF is using this gap to commit fraud.
I don't really agree there. This is what contracts exist for. The law doesn't have to forsee in advance every possible business contingency.  There is no basis in law that says that you can just ignore a contract when it suits you.

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ImI
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March 15, 2014, 09:48:14 PM
 #8429

So there is a gap in lawmaking and HF is using this gap to commit fraud.
I don't really agree there. This is what contracts exist for. The law doesn't have to forsee in advance every possible business contingency.  There is no basis in law that says that you can just ignore a contract when it suits you.

Yes, i hope you are right and as HF stated explicit BTC-refunds i think you got a chance there.

I see a gap in lawmaking more as a general problem when it comes to mining and late deliveries, cause in a traditional customer protection way of thinking there is nothing wrong with not delivering and offering a refund after 6 months. And this fits perfectly to maybe a purchase of a BMW or whatever but it doesnt fit the purchase of a Bitcoin-miner. And thats where i see a gap in lawmaking.

Edit: Basically the Bitcoin-Miner-Manufacturer misuses his customers as a way of Bitcoin-Call-Option. If BTC/Fiat stays the same they deliver, if it raises they choose not to deliver and to offer you a US$ refund.
Syke
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March 15, 2014, 09:56:01 PM
 #8430

Yes, i hope you are right and as HF stated explicit BTC-refunds i think you got a chance there.

I see a gap in lawmaking more as a general problem when it comes to mining and late deliveries, cause in a traditional customer protection way of thinking there is nothing wrong with not delivering and offering a refund after 6 months. And this fits perfectly to maybe a purchase of a BMW or whatever but it doesnt fit the purchase of a Bitcoin-miner. And thats where i see a gap in lawmaking.

Deals denominated in something other than fiat currency are not new. I think the law is just fine. For example, a judge ordered CoinLab to deliver bitcoins to Bitvestment, and not some USD-equivilent.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/11/07/judge-orders-coinlab-to-pay-up-in-bitcoin/

Buy & Hold
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March 15, 2014, 10:00:58 PM
 #8431

Yes, i hope you are right and as HF stated explicit BTC-refunds i think you got a chance there.

I see a gap in lawmaking more as a general problem when it comes to mining and late deliveries, cause in a traditional customer protection way of thinking there is nothing wrong with not delivering and offering a refund after 6 months. And this fits perfectly to maybe a purchase of a BMW or whatever but it doesnt fit the purchase of a Bitcoin-miner. And thats where i see a gap in lawmaking.

Deals denominated in something other than fiat currency are not new. I think the law is just fine. For example, a judge ordered CoinLab to deliver bitcoins to Bitvestment, and not some USD-equivilent.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/11/07/judge-orders-coinlab-to-pay-up-in-bitcoin/


Yes, i think we have to distinguish here between orders placed with Bitcoin and orders placed with US$.

Orders placed in BTC have a chance imo to get their BTCs back, but whats the situation for those that paid in US$?

They are of course offered a US$ refund but as i already stated thats a situation very close to fraud, cause they basically are able to choose what suits them best. Like a BTC-call-option.
cedivad
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March 15, 2014, 10:03:55 PM
 #8432

Order placed in USD can choose between USD refunds or hardware. What could be better than that?
Posted from Bitcointa.lk - #jRf9TlEjf9uU0HpE

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
seriouscoin
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March 15, 2014, 10:27:09 PM
 #8433

Yes, i hope you are right and as HF stated explicit BTC-refunds i think you got a chance there.

I see a gap in lawmaking more as a general problem when it comes to mining and late deliveries, cause in a traditional customer protection way of thinking there is nothing wrong with not delivering and offering a refund after 6 months. And this fits perfectly to maybe a purchase of a BMW or whatever but it doesnt fit the purchase of a Bitcoin-miner. And thats where i see a gap in lawmaking.

Deals denominated in something other than fiat currency are not new. I think the law is just fine. For example, a judge ordered CoinLab to deliver bitcoins to Bitvestment, and not some USD-equivilent.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/11/07/judge-orders-coinlab-to-pay-up-in-bitcoin/


Yes, i think we have to distinguish here between orders placed with Bitcoin and orders placed with US$.

Orders placed in BTC have a chance imo to get their BTCs back, but whats the situation for those that paid in US$?

They are of course offered a US$ refund but as i already stated thats a situation very close to fraud, cause they basically are able to choose what suits them best. Like a BTC-call-option.

Had Hashfast just accepted BTC as a form of payment like many vendors out there, yes you should not expect full refund in BTC. However, HashFast team had been advertising and giving ppl a sale agreement that they WOULD refund the full BTC amount if they couldnt deliver the products.

Its clearly the contract that they now refused to abide.
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March 15, 2014, 10:49:25 PM
 #8434

The bottom line is that money is power.
Well, hey, some of us still have money here, and their 90%-100% losses on HF so far haven't left them broke.  Is there some slot where I can insert money and receive justice? I too am unhappy with them getting away with the fraud— even more so than my financial loss. I'm willing to double down on my losses if I was reasonably confident that the result would be them not getting away with it, because I'm very concerned with the long term effects on the mining ecosystem if its possible for hardware vendors to freely get away with fraud. What I don't have an abundance of is time.

I was thinking of perhaps funding some bounties for things like most effective community action to prevent others from getting defrauded by hashfast, but I'm not sure I have time to administer it— and esp. in terms of figuring how how to convince people that I'm being serious when I say that I really don't want anything illegal done.

BFL got away with a lot of crap, but they never promised full BTC refunds so this is why HF's case is so interesting.

Edit: This is just too good to not quote it for history:

Why did you promise full btc refunds if either:

a. You don't understand the volatility of bitcoin

or

b. You don't hold all btc payments in full in case of refunds.

If HashFast had enough resources to build your machine without your money, we would have simply kept the machines for ourselves and not taken the unnecessary (and risky) step of involving customers.

"Full BTC refunds" means a full refund of the price (which is always denominated in USD) via the exchange medium of BTC.

Unfortunately, the decision of a few disgruntled customers to lawyer up and go the legal route forced HashFast to issue refunds solely in USD.

iCEBREAKER is a troll! He and cypherdoc helped HashFast scam 50 Million $ from its customers !
H/w Hosting Directory & Reputation - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622998.0
gmaxwell
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March 16, 2014, 06:26:49 AM
 #8435

i think you got a chance there.
Sadly, I don't because I simple don't have the time— or emotional tolerance— to see these guys through to court. Fortunately other people are already in the process of suing them, so some amount of justice may still be served.

I started the heavy prodding in public when I saw they were soliciting more rubes to screw over, with only a mild hope that I'd ever see a dollar or a Bitcoin out of them— that maybe if they saw they they were going to be able to get away with the highly profitable task of pulling in more victims without complaint they might try to rescue things with their past customers.  I think that at least the recent noise has been successful at increasing a lot of awareness, and maybe saved some people a $6k loss, so thats all good.

If there is anything someone thinks I can easily do to help them recover please let me know.

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March 16, 2014, 06:41:23 AM
 #8436



Why did you promise full btc refunds if either:

a. You don't understand the volatility of bitcoin

or

b. You don't hold all btc payments in full in case of refunds.

If HashFast had enough resources to build your machine without your money, we would have simply kept the machines for ourselves and not taken the unnecessary (and risky) step of involving customers.

"Full BTC refunds" means a full refund of the price (which is always denominated in USD) via the exchange medium of BTC.

Unfortunately, the decision of a few disgruntled customers to lawyer up and go the legal route forced HashFast to issue refunds solely in USD.

not believe a single word of HF!
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March 17, 2014, 09:23:40 AM
 #8437

Quote from: Bitcoin Forum
A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by the starter of a self-moderated topic. There are no rules of self-moderation, so this deletion cannot be appealed. Do not continue posting in this topic if the topic-starter has requested that you leave.

You can create a new topic if you are unsatisfied with this one. If the topic-starter is scamming, post about it in Scam Accusations.

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the times you are online makes we wonder where you work from, probably not the US. Who are you HashLast_CL?
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March 17, 2014, 12:41:21 PM
 #8438

MPP is coming SoonTM.  Sit tight and be patient.  Great things come to those who wait!   Wink

This epic full retard has to be here for posterity. HOW ABOUT YOU SIT AND BE PATIENT WHILE YOU LOSE MONEY EVERY DAY YOU MORONIC DUMBFUCK IDIOT???

iCEBREAKER is a troll! He and cypherdoc helped HashFast scam 50 Million $ from its customers !
H/w Hosting Directory & Reputation - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622998.0
MANofthePEOPLE
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March 17, 2014, 12:58:37 PM
 #8439

MPP is coming SoonTM.  Sit tight and be patient.  Great things come to those who wait!   Wink

This epic full retard has to be here for posterity. HOW ABOUT YOU SIT AND BE PATIENT WHILE YOU LOSE MONEY EVERY DAY YOU MORONIC DUMBFUCK IDIOT???

Well at least I doubt he's making much anymore. Can't be many people buying from ScamFast now.
cedivad
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March 17, 2014, 12:59:55 PM
 #8440

Well at least I doubt he's making much anymore. Can't be many people buying from ScamFast now.

This is why they will have to move away from preorders, in favour of shipping in stock products...
Posted from Bitcointa.lk - #3DH3EVs92vNVsWwH

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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