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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 864207 times)
cedivad
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May 18, 2014, 02:33:18 PM
 #9401

They can try to dump everything in a garage sale but it's not something that will work, regardless of it ending in the hands of customers; peppermining will probably be forced to give all of their profits back to the creditors. So will VMC and the 5000 board they claim to have all the components for, etc.
The directors will be liable because if you run a scam, regardless of the suffix on your company name, you are liable.

Liquidating doesn't make any sense, if they don't fight back at least with a chapter 11 I don't even want to start thinking about how much of the possible hate I have left they will take. It's nothing magic. Please someone explain to me why this won't work:

  • Antminer is selling their in stock S2 for 2300$ and the market is being flooded with them. HF can make their 2TH sierra for less than that and have some in stock. So there is a damn profit margin.
  • File for chapter 11, put it on your website in red and bold, so that people knows that they can scratch everything they knew about HF.
  • Raise capital, capital that as per chapter 11 rules will be protected from creditors and the first to be paid back. I myself would be stupid enough to invest half of the USD value of what I gave them last year.
  • Use that capital to produce more of those sierras, that you are selling as in stock with a 100% profit. Re invest the margin on producing more of those that are better than the S2 and you don't even need to pay import taxes and such.
  • If you are gonna be really open and honest, your creditors will help you in whatever manner they can. With marketing, for example. If you ship only in stock hardware, or with a real delivery date as the s2, you won't have any reputation problem.
  • And if you can't rise enough money, sell part of the components.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong with this? By liquidating you are helping others making money on the assets paid with customers' money. Why the hell would you want to do that? Only to scam them a little more?

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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May 18, 2014, 04:49:29 PM
 #9402

"Douchbag mode" was written into Hashfast's articles of incorporation. 

I don't think there was ever much serious intent to serve their customers, unless it happened by accident after the douchebag management and douchebag investors took "their" share.

That was the intent from the start, at least that's what I suspect would come out in the course of a bankruptcy.

Sure, they "could" to this, or they "could" do that.  Making amends with the customers has always been among Hashfast's options.  Have they ever done it?  No.  Will they do it now?  No, not even if they were able.  Would they have done it if the bankruptcy petition was never filed?  Absolutely not.
cedivad
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May 18, 2014, 05:02:25 PM
 #9403

The point is really simple. You are either in good faith, or you are not. In the first case you will try to do the best you can and you will use that later to defend yourself in court. In the second case you will do the exact opposite and people will use that as yet another argument against you. The third option is that they really believe that three letters are gonna save them.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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May 18, 2014, 06:00:09 PM
 #9404

The point is really simple. You are either in good faith, or you are not. In the first case you will try to do the best you can and you will use that later to defend yourself in court. In the second case you will do the exact opposite and people will use that as yet another argument against you. The third option is that they really believe that three letters are gonna save them.
The law is pretty clear about it, lawsuits would be confined to what is owned by the company. there is exceptions to the LLC protection against personal assets, but they don't fit in this case, proving this was a scam is going to be next to impossible, especially if they could prove a functioning business model(even if they didn't follow through with that) knowing eduardo, sure it has a better chance of fitting... but still, its going to be next to impossible for nailing him under a personal lawsuit.
cedivad
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May 18, 2014, 06:07:18 PM
 #9405

The whole management knew they were never gonna ship on time and they kept selling the same lie until 3 days before "shipping", to get more overpriced sales, and blatantly lied about the delays later as well. So the whole management is screwed. Add every detail we don't known yet like emails, invoices, shipments, contracts, and they are in a sinking boat themselves. I'm starting to wonder what lawyer I should use already. It's gonna be a great collective lawsuit this time. No shitty no-group-action limitations.

... Sure, they could still do the impossible to prove their good faith, but I doubt that at this point. I did everything possible and it amounted to exactly nothing.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
armyof1ne
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May 18, 2014, 06:58:21 PM
 #9406

The whole management knew they were never gonna ship on time and they kept selling the same lie until 3 days before "shipping", to get more overpriced sales, and blatantly lied about the delays later as well. So the whole management is screwed. Add every detail we don't known yet like emails, invoices, shipments, contracts, and they are in a sinking boat themselves. I'm starting to wonder what lawyer I should use already. It's gonna be a great collective lawsuit this time. No shitty no-group-action limitations.

... Sure, they could still do the impossible to prove their good faith, but I doubt that at this point. I did everything possible and it amounted to exactly nothing.
well good luck to you on proving that, i have been in the manufacturing business... and this happens all to much, i mean look at all the other companies, isn't the only ones that actually got their machines out fully developed by them? not hiring another company to do it? isn't that why BFL says they have failed to?
cedivad
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May 18, 2014, 07:12:00 PM
 #9407

There are just too many incongruences. Picking the wrong supplier is one thing. Discovering 3 days before shipping that it was the wrong supplier is a completely different one. Telling lies to your current and future customers in the meanwhile is yet another one. This was a scam from the very first day, and it has to be obliterated.

Still waiting to hear the reasons why (it looks like they decided), in good faith, to accept the chapter 7 and not fight back. And why they decided to stop everything in the meanwhile.

btw I can vogue for John, known him for many years.  Deff a stand up guy so keep an eye on what they doing Tongue

I mean, really?

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
Jutarul
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May 18, 2014, 07:32:06 PM
 #9408

... Sure, they could still do the impossible to prove their good faith, but I doubt that at this point. I did everything possible and it amounted to exactly nothing.
well good luck to you on proving that, i have been in the manufacturing business... and this happens all to much, i mean look at all the other companies, isn't the only ones that actually got their machines out fully developed by them? not hiring another company to do it? isn't that why BFL says they have failed to?
No intend required. Gross negligence is enough. The reason is simple: you cannot comprehensively prove intend (unless you have a confession), but you can evaluate conduct.

If you bet the farm on a contract with a supplier you are responsible to the people who you made representations to. If you would allow gross negligence to be treated differently than fraud, then you could intentionally (under the pretense of incompetence) destroy businesses and not be liable to your creditors.

To let gross negligence of the kind of HashFast go unpunished is a moral hazard this industry doesn't need.

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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May 19, 2014, 01:47:44 AM
 #9409

... Sure, they could still do the impossible to prove their good faith, but I doubt that at this point. I did everything possible and it amounted to exactly nothing.
well good luck to you on proving that, i have been in the manufacturing business... and this happens all to much, i mean look at all the other companies, isn't the only ones that actually got their machines out fully developed by them? not hiring another company to do it? isn't that why BFL says they have failed to?
No intend required. Gross negligence is enough. The reason is simple: you cannot comprehensively prove intend (unless you have a confession), but you can evaluate conduct.

If you bet the farm on a contract with a supplier you are responsible to the people who you made representations to. If you would allow gross negligence to be treated differently than fraud, then you could intentionally (under the pretense of incompetence) destroy businesses and not be liable to your creditors.

To let gross negligence of the kind of HashFast go unpunished is a moral hazard this industry doesn't need.

right, but it happens over and over and etc...look at BFL, did they get into trouble? nope and pretty much any other asic company does the same thing and nothing ever happens to them except they get rich n we get poor Sad no i don't have a stake in this company, just watching this clusterfuck and i feel bad for HF customers...good luck guys Smiley

Dreams of cyprto solving everything is slowly slipping away...Replaced by scams/hacks Sad
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May 19, 2014, 04:40:35 AM
 #9410

... Sure, they could still do the impossible to prove their good faith, but I doubt that at this point. I did everything possible and it amounted to exactly nothing.
well good luck to you on proving that, i have been in the manufacturing business... and this happens all to much, i mean look at all the other companies, isn't the only ones that actually got their machines out fully developed by them? not hiring another company to do it? isn't that why BFL says they have failed to?
No intend required. Gross negligence is enough. The reason is simple: you cannot comprehensively prove intend (unless you have a confession), but you can evaluate conduct.

If you bet the farm on a contract with a supplier you are responsible to the people who you made representations to. If you would allow gross negligence to be treated differently than fraud, then you could intentionally (under the pretense of incompetence) destroy businesses and not be liable to your creditors.

To let gross negligence of the kind of HashFast go unpunished is a moral hazard this industry doesn't need.

right, but it happens over and over and etc...look at BFL, did they get into trouble? nope and pretty much any other asic company does the same thing and nothing ever happens to them except they get rich n we get poor Sad no i don't have a stake in this company, just watching this clusterfuck and i feel bad for HF customers...good luck guys Smiley

Dude, in terms of time frame, the BF Labs legal saga is in the bottom of the first inning.  BF Labs legal shit storm is just warming up, it's going to take a while but they are most likely TRUELY fucked.  It's probably going to real ugly and a lot of lawyers are going to get new cars and swimming pools but BF Labs played a dangerous game to long, all there is to do now is sit back and laugh as the implosion unfolds. 
cedivad
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May 19, 2014, 09:01:08 AM
 #9411

BF Labs legal shit storm is just warming up, it's going to take a while but they are most likely TRUELY fucked.
Just randomly from the homepage of /r/Bitcoin:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/25wyr2/i_want_chris_vleisides_in_jail/

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
perezoso
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May 19, 2014, 12:22:11 PM
 #9412

BF Labs legal shit storm is just warming up, it's going to take a while but they are most likely TRUELY fucked.
Just randomly from the homepage of /r/Bitcoin:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/25wyr2/i_want_chris_vleisides_in_jail/

Check.

I could probably join that shit storm too, in minor way.  But the truth is that I mined a couple weeks and then resold their late hardware for a profit, so...

Of course I put that "profit" into a Hashfast order.  Good thinking, eh?
cedivad
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May 19, 2014, 04:09:17 PM
 #9413

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=405950.0 (crumbs banned for trolling HashLabs and other scams)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg3408726#msg3408726 (crumbs and not an HashLabs employee realising that the lack of a picture of the board, that was covered under the nda, in case you forgot it, was not exactly a good sign)

My English is actually getting better.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
armyof1ne
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May 19, 2014, 04:38:11 PM
 #9414

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=405950.0 (crumbs banned for trolling HashLabs and other scams)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg3408726#msg3408726 (crumbs and not an HashLabs employee realising that the lack of a picture of the board, that was covered under the nda, in case you forgot it, was not exactly a good sign)

My English is actually getting better.
English skills too stronk! lololol, but seriously, argue with me long enough and you will be able to write like a pretentious british asshole! haha
cedivad
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May 19, 2014, 06:14:50 PM
 #9415

Smiley

https://twitter.com/BryceWeiner/status/468064242520711170

The only comments left on the web about HashLabs are from their puppets.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
perezoso
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May 19, 2014, 10:42:19 PM
 #9416

Applying Hanlon's razor ("Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity") to the Hashfast meltdown, lately I've been wondering if their ridiculous recent announcement of wanting to become the Intel of bitcoin mining might not have been the belated revelation of management's plan all along.  That they would sell boxes long enough to get a foothold, and then transform themselves, as silly as it sounds today, into a chipmaking firm, on the basis of the performance of their chip.

This might explain the lack of attention paid to the "substrate", and the order of thousands more chips than they seem to have immediately needed.  (I know there are economies of scale on the chips, but there are on other things too.)  They were, from the beginning, in the box business only temporarily, since Simon thought he had the chip thing figured out. The sometimes irrational emphasis on "high quality" long lasting components, etc, was related to the branding effort in the long term.

In order to implement their plan, they got money from where they could, which turned out to be the waterboarding porn crowd, who inserted Johnny Scrotum as their man on the scene to watch over the investment (since, through insertions prior, he could be relied upon in, err, insertions). But I digress....

In return for their money, the pron crowd demanded immediate compensation in the form of a lot of bitcoins from the initial orders.  Eddie and Simon might not have been able to resist a little pillaging either.  But, Eddie figured, as long as they could nail the chips and have enough money to start shipping boxes, they'd be okay, since the equipment would be good, and he'd then quickly have the means to transform Hashfast into boutique mining chip maker, par excellence.  But when things started unravelling in late 2013, the obligation to the pron crowd tied Eddie's hands, making a change of plan impossible, because he was locked into paying the pronsters back a percentage of X initial units (or X bitcoins).  And they probably didn't care much if Hashfast failed, they were just earning a nice percentage on preorders.

Focused on the chip and paying the pron guys, as Amy said, Hashfast "never really recovered" from that failed first board.  Once the pron people had been paid, there wasn't much money left (and Scrotum could leave, his job done). Eddie and Simon got left holding a lot of chips AND the obligation to deliver to customers, and not much capital. Fixing the board heavily strained their limited finances, after paying off torture porn mob. They got stuck.  

Unwilling to give up on the plan, however, in early 2014, Eddie was paralyzed.  Filling the orders wasn't the priority.  A path to chipmaker status was.  So they tried to drip the orders out enough to hold the wolves (customers) at bay, while still searching for that deal to transform themselves into "Intel", which obviously required holding a lot of chips in hand, since there was no money to make more.  Even worse, the lawsuits were causing their remaining nestegg to hemorrhage, requiring the attempt to drum up sales of the "Yoli". But Eddie still chose to avoid reconciliation with an angry mob of customers, holding out hope of reeling in the big deal.

The rising sentiment against them, and competition, scared away any serious partner to manufacture and retail the boxes, and eroded the terms that Eddie could secure from those still willing to take a chance, and so the drain circling slowly accelerated...

Which leads to the present situation.

Just a theory.




cedivad
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May 19, 2014, 11:30:41 PM
 #9417

Some bitcoin transactions suggests that John got a share of the sales. It's just a guess but in that case we are gonna go after it, as everything else.  There are soo many interesting theories behind HashLabs that after having changing the industry we should all co-write a book.

Btw, "the Intel of Bitcoin" is a marketing slogan stolen from CT Wink

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
armyof1ne
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May 20, 2014, 05:05:45 PM
 #9418

... Sure, they could still do the impossible to prove their good faith, but I doubt that at this point. I did everything possible and it amounted to exactly nothing.
well good luck to you on proving that, i have been in the manufacturing business... and this happens all to much, i mean look at all the other companies, isn't the only ones that actually got their machines out fully developed by them? not hiring another company to do it? isn't that why BFL says they have failed to?
No intend required. Gross negligence is enough. The reason is simple: you cannot comprehensively prove intend (unless you have a confession), but you can evaluate conduct.

If you bet the farm on a contract with a supplier you are responsible to the people who you made representations to. If you would allow gross negligence to be treated differently than fraud, then you could intentionally (under the pretense of incompetence) destroy businesses and not be liable to your creditors.

To let gross negligence of the kind of HashFast go unpunished is a moral hazard this industry doesn't need.

right, but it happens over and over and etc...look at BFL, did they get into trouble? nope and pretty much any other asic company does the same thing and nothing ever happens to them except they get rich n we get poor Sad no i don't have a stake in this company, just watching this clusterfuck and i feel bad for HF customers...good luck guys Smiley

Dude, in terms of time frame, the BF Labs legal saga is in the bottom of the first inning.  BF Labs legal shit storm is just warming up, it's going to take a while but they are most likely TRUELY fucked.  It's probably going to real ugly and a lot of lawyers are going to get new cars and swimming pools but BF Labs played a dangerous game to long, all there is to do now is sit back and laugh as the implosion unfolds. 
We are all getting TRUELY fucked... i have very little hopes at getting my money back, poor decisions lead up to it on everyone's side... no amount of litigation at this point is going to get me a full refund... thats what i get for waiting.
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May 20, 2014, 05:17:02 PM
 #9419

I have little hoping of the MPP promised to be delivered in January/February.

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May 20, 2014, 07:59:22 PM
 #9420

I have little hoping of the MPP promised to be delivered in January/February.

That "army" guy wasn't ever going to get his "full refund".  This is the logical failure (among many) of his arguments.  In addition to knowing more about litigation than any lawyer yet contacted about Hashfast, he argues from the false pretense that all the people owed "full refunds" have the possibility of getting them.  They don't. The money is not there.  Unless you count what was probably looted, but that's not coming back except possibly through a judicial process, and might not be enough anyway.

The MPP, well, that's never coming either.  (I'm owed it too.)  The only possibility of the MPP ever coming is once it is worthless, but it looks like Hashfast will be folded before then.  Same difference.

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