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Author Topic: MasterCoin Buyer/Seller Thread  (Read 225269 times)
DGulari
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December 05, 2013, 03:35:01 PM
 #2081

DGulari, regarding your comment about Pouncer: I want to highlight that he has been of enormous help and put countless hours of his time into this.
Yeah, I don't want to dis Pouncer at all. He is helping and he is making things better.  I totally agree that he is great to have.  I am just saying, Max has been unreal good at making trades zero or low friction.  Even when it comes with special requests.  That is awesome.

However, I had hoped that there would be an upper limit on fees.  I don't think the fee for any single transaction should exceed $100 or .1BTC.  Each transaction takes the same work - whether it is for 1MSC or 1000MSC.  Can't we make a flat fee?  That makes more sense.  

For the transaction I just funded, the fee would be over $400.  I think this is excessive.  You guys are awesome and I am glad for your help - but I'd like fees to be in the spirit of bitcoin rather than Visa.  




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December 05, 2013, 04:03:56 PM
 #2082

DGulari, regarding your comment about Pouncer: I want to highlight that he has been of enormous help and put countless hours of his time into this.
Yeah, I don't want to dis Pouncer at all. He is helping and he is making things better.  I totally agree that he is great to have.  I am just saying, Max has been unreal good at making trades zero or low friction.  Even when it comes with special requests.  That is awesome.

However, I had hoped that there would be an upper limit on fees.  I don't think any single transaction should exceed $100 or .1BTC.  Each transaction takes the same work - whether it is for 1MSC or 1000MSC.  Can't we make a flat fee?  That makes more sense. 

For the transaction I just funded, the fee would be over $400.  I think this is excessive.  You guys are awesome and I am glad for your help - but I'd like fees to be in the spirit of bitcoin rather than Visa. 

For higher amounts that might indeed be quite a large fee. And you're right, the amount of work is the same for small and large amounts. What changes is the amount of responsibility. I don't have any concerns holding 10 MSC in escrow because I could compensate a loss of 10 MSC out of my own pocket. But holding a couple of hundred Mastercoins is another thing and my gut tells me that this could lead to problems. That's why I think a percentage fee is justified.
But an upper limit on fees could be a solution, I'll be thinking about that.

For your first prefunded order, let's go without any fees at all. I'd like to test this concept and see how it works, so there's no need for a fee right now.

My PGP-Key: 462D02D8
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December 05, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
 #2083

I sold 200 MSC at .15 BTC a few days ago. Can we have a system in place to give feedback to buyers and sellers? This way people know who the reliable sellers are.

"The difference between a castle and a prison is only a question of who holds the keys."
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December 05, 2013, 04:51:47 PM
 #2084

I sold 200 MSC at .15 BTC a few days ago. Can we have a system in place to give feedback to buyers and sellers? This way people know who the reliable sellers are.

Why not using this forum's trust system to leave feedback?

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December 05, 2013, 04:56:26 PM
 #2085

Please remove my order, thx!
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December 05, 2013, 04:57:33 PM
 #2086

I sold 200 MSC at .15 BTC a few days ago. Can we have a system in place to give feedback to buyers and sellers? This way people know who the reliable sellers are.

Why not using this forum's trust system to leave feedback?
That's a good idea but since I used escrow it is not as though someone "risked" the BTC to me. What do you think?

"The difference between a castle and a prison is only a question of who holds the keys."
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December 05, 2013, 05:13:02 PM
 #2087


Note that holding Mastercoins in escrow is quite different from holding Bitcoins in escrow. Bitcoin is well established and by taking certain precautions I can minimize the risk of losing someone's Bitcoins. Mastercoin on the other hand is an evolving protocol and I've already seen a couple of transactions that were open to interpretation. I will of course do my best but I have to stress that I can't take on any responsibility for Mastercoins held in escrow for prefunded orders.
DGulari, regarding your comment about Pouncer: I want to highlight that he has been of enormous help and put countless hours of his time into this.


However, I had hoped that there would be an upper limit on fees.  I don't think any single transaction should exceed $100 or .1BTC.  Each transaction takes the same work - whether it is for 1MSC or 1000MSC.  Can't we make a flat fee?  That makes more sense. 

For the transaction I just funded, the fee would be over $400.  I think this is excessive.  You guys are awesome and I am glad for your help - but I'd like fees to be in the spirit of bitcoin rather than Visa. 

For higher amounts that might indeed be quite a large fee. And you're right, the amount of work is the same for small and large amounts. What changes is the amount of responsibility. I don't have any concerns holding 10 MSC in escrow because I could compensate a loss of 10 MSC out of my own pocket. But holding a couple of hundred Mastercoins is another thing and my gut tells me that this could lead to problems. That's why I think a percentage fee is justified.
But an upper limit on fees could be a solution, I'll be thinking about that.

For your first prefunded order, let's go without any fees at all. I'd like to test this concept and see how it works, so there's no need for a fee right now.

Maybe I didn't understand but if you are saying that you are not taking responsibility to loss of MSC and the amount of time is the same why is a percentage fee justified on large trades? 

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December 05, 2013, 05:26:36 PM
 #2088

Maybe I didn't understand but if you are saying that you are not taking responsibility to loss of MSC and the amount of time is the same why is a percentage fee justified on large trades? 
Even where he doesn't provide a guarantee - he must take greater care in handling large BTC.  Large transactions deserve a larger fee.  Just not over $100.  That is a lot.  I'll be signing up for escrow job if I get $100 to make one MSC transfer.



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December 05, 2013, 05:27:38 PM
 #2089

Maybe I didn't understand but if you are saying that you are not taking responsibility to loss of MSC and the amount of time is the same why is a percentage fee justified on large trades?  

I thought he said that he was taking responsibility for the MSC entrusted to him. Anyway I think that a percentage fee is fine as this is how normal bitcoin exchanges work, why should the fee for this be any less? It's actually a lot more work than an automated exchange..

For the transaction I just funded, the fee would be over $400.  I think this is excessive.  You guys are awesome and I am glad for your help - but I'd like fees to be in the spirit of bitcoin rather than Visa.  

The amount of the fee is relevant to the trade. If you want him to escrow a $40000 trade for you then $400 isn't really that much, especially if he is responsible for this $40000, what if he sends the $40000 to the wrong address and it is lost, will you expect him to cover it? The larger the trade the more risk he is taking by accepting the escrow request.
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December 05, 2013, 05:43:02 PM
 #2090

Faraday you are correct that it is a lot of responsibility if the escrow is expected to cover losses.

but again I don’t think maxmint wants to be liable in case of loss of MSC


Prefunded order
There will be no upfront fee for placing a prefunded order. Sellers send the respective amount of Mastercoins to the escrow address and buyers can purchase Mastercoins directly from me. Changes to an existing prefunded offer are free of charge.
After a completed sale, a 1% fee will be applied to both the MSC and the BTC amount. Should the seller want to cancel a prefunded order and request the Mastercoins back a 1% fee will be taken off the Mastercoin amount.

Note that holding Mastercoins in escrow is quite different from holding Bitcoins in escrow. Bitcoin is well established and by taking certain precautions I can minimize the risk of losing someone's Bitcoins. Mastercoin on the other hand is an evolving protocol and I've already seen a couple of transactions that were open to interpretation. I will of course do my best but I have to stress that I can't take on any responsibility for Mastercoins held in escrow for prefunded orders.


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December 05, 2013, 05:49:45 PM
 #2091

Sorry I didn't see that part. Anyway I think that whatever fee is charged really should be up to him, nothing is stopping others from offering their own escrow service with whatever fee's they find reasonable, and traders can chose to use whoever they wish.

One suggestion I would have is that standard orders that are overlapping are removed after 1 or 2 days, this should tidy up the book a bit.
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December 05, 2013, 06:03:06 PM
 #2092

One suggestion I would have is that standard orders that are overlapping are removed after 1 or 2 days, this should tidy up the book a bit.
Fees, no fees, reasonable fees - who cares.  That is not important.  What is so HIGHLY important is to work together to establish efficiency in the market.  This will benefit everyone.  A book with a lot of crap offers on it doesn't help anyone.  Conversely, prefunded offers which can be accepted instantly by anyone tend to make the market most efficient.  An efficient market will greatly benefit the MSC price.  If you don't understand why this is so, I am going to have to ask you to please trust me on this.  It has to do with something they teach in B school called 'efficient market theory' (funny enough)



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December 05, 2013, 06:05:19 PM
 #2093


Note that holding Mastercoins in escrow is quite different from holding Bitcoins in escrow. Bitcoin is well established and by taking certain precautions I can minimize the risk of losing someone's Bitcoins. Mastercoin on the other hand is an evolving protocol and I've already seen a couple of transactions that were open to interpretation. I will of course do my best but I have to stress that I can't take on any responsibility for Mastercoins held in escrow for prefunded orders.
DGulari, regarding your comment about Pouncer: I want to highlight that he has been of enormous help and put countless hours of his time into this.


However, I had hoped that there would be an upper limit on fees.  I don't think any single transaction should exceed $100 or .1BTC.  Each transaction takes the same work - whether it is for 1MSC or 1000MSC.  Can't we make a flat fee?  That makes more sense. 

For the transaction I just funded, the fee would be over $400.  I think this is excessive.  You guys are awesome and I am glad for your help - but I'd like fees to be in the spirit of bitcoin rather than Visa. 

For higher amounts that might indeed be quite a large fee. And you're right, the amount of work is the same for small and large amounts. What changes is the amount of responsibility. I don't have any concerns holding 10 MSC in escrow because I could compensate a loss of 10 MSC out of my own pocket. But holding a couple of hundred Mastercoins is another thing and my gut tells me that this could lead to problems. That's why I think a percentage fee is justified.
But an upper limit on fees could be a solution, I'll be thinking about that.

For your first prefunded order, let's go without any fees at all. I'd like to test this concept and see how it works, so there's no need for a fee right now.

Maybe I didn't understand but if you are saying that you are not taking responsibility to loss of MSC and the amount of time is the same why is a percentage fee justified on large trades? 

Alghough I said that I can't take any responsibility I still feel I have to be extra careful when handling MSC worth 40,000$ (or whatever amount). If people trust me with their Mastercoins I will of course do everything to keep them safe. And I know that I would try to cover losses if they would be the result of a mistake I made.

Now there are many things that could potentially go wrong when holding and sending Mastercoins. So all this is a high-risk operation for me.

As I said, I feel very comfortable holding large amounts of Bitcoins since I know exactly what to do to keep them safe and how to send them. That's why I did not charge a fee for Bitcoin escrows yet.

But I don't feel comfortable holding large amounts of MSC for the reasons described above. Larger amounts of MSC to be lost = more risk for me = more bad feelings for me = higher fee to be paid. That's why I think a percentage fee is justified.

But that's just how it is for me personally. If someone wants to do this kind of escrow for free I'd be more than happy because I'd prefer to leave this to others.
And as I said before, I'll be thinking about an upper limit to the fee.

- - - -

On another note, DGulari did you already send MSCs to the escrow address at 1LdgFp2gLvWfkPnyTYAtH7ENnzgBDdNwfd?
I do see incoming 0.00006 BTC, but ME and MC aren't showing incoming MSCs:
http://mastercoin-explorer.com/addresses/1LdgFp2gLvWfkPnyTYAtH7ENnzgBDdNwfd
https://masterchest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1LdgFp2gLvWfkPnyTYAtH7ENnzgBDdNwfd

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Faraday
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December 05, 2013, 06:08:53 PM
 #2094

I am not sure about the proposed fee charged to place an order in the book, I imagine most people will just pay the fee one time and then change the existing order to avoid paying more fee's, for example you could place a sell for 100 MSC at 0.15 and after it is sold move your order to 1 MSC at 0.9 or something that won't be purchased, then next time you wish to place an order change it again.

So if you proceed with this you might as well just charge everyone a 1 time fee to use the order book, still not sure if that's the best idea - it may just discourage people from using the order book at all for standard trades and they will just be posted in this thread instead.

Also I think a lot of the problem at the moment is that once peoples trades have been filled they may not bother to post in here to remove the order, adding fees to place orders wouldn't really fix this - unless there was some kind of system where you pay 0.01 or whatever and are refunded 0.005 when you remove your order, this just creates more work needed to run the order book though so may not be viable.

I suppose one way you could do it is to set up a bitcoin address for the order book, all orders must send 0.01 to this address with a message containing trade info and link to bitcointalk profile or something. Once the order is filled they must send 0.0005 (covers the miners fee) from the same address with a message to remove the order, and then 0.005 will be sent back to the same address and the order removed. I suppose there could also be a option to send 0.00006 from the same address with a message if you wished to change the order.
Anyway that's probably all too complicated but just suggestion to think about  Wink If it was me I don't think I'd bother adding fees to place orders as it seems like it will create a lot more work.
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December 05, 2013, 06:29:52 PM
 #2095

I am not sure about the proposed fee charged to place an order in the book, I imagine most people will just pay the fee one time and then change the existing order to avoid paying more fee's, for example you could place a sell for 100 MSC at 0.15 and after it is sold move your order to 1 MSC at 0.9 or something that won't be purchased, then next time you wish to place an order change it again.

So if you proceed with this you might as well just change everyone a 1 time fee to use the order book, still not sure if that's the best idea - it may just discourage people from using the order book at all for standard trades and they will just be posted in this thread instead.

Why don't we start with a maximum of three days before your order will be removed? In this way it will stay up to date and no fee have to be charged.
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December 05, 2013, 06:33:22 PM
 #2096

I am not sure about the proposed fee charged to place an order in the book, I imagine most people will just pay the fee one time and then change the existing order to avoid paying more fee's, for example you could place a sell for 100 MSC at 0.15 and after it is sold move your order to 1 MSC at 0.9 or something that won't be purchased, then next time you wish to place an order change it again.

So if you proceed with this you might as well just change everyone a 1 time fee to use the order book, still not sure if that's the best idea - it may just discourage people from using the order book at all for standard trades and they will just be posted in this thread instead.

Why don't we start with a maximum of three days before your order will be removed? In this way it will stay up to date and no fee have to be charged.

I agree that something like this is the best solution. But this is not really ideal, for example J.R has posted his sell order 1750 MSC @ 0.7, I'm sure the order is still valid after 3 days and I doubt he wants to keep posting it again. Which is why I proposed that all overlapping orders are removed after X days rather than every order.
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December 05, 2013, 07:02:23 PM
 #2097

I am not sure about the proposed fee charged to place an order in the book, I imagine most people will just pay the fee one time and then change the existing order to avoid paying more fee's, for example you could place a sell for 100 MSC at 0.15 and after it is sold move your order to 1 MSC at 0.9 or something that won't be purchased, then next time you wish to place an order change it again.

So if you proceed with this you might as well just change everyone a 1 time fee to use the order book, still not sure if that's the best idea - it may just discourage people from using the order book at all for standard trades and they will just be posted in this thread instead.

Why don't we start with a maximum of three days before your order will be removed? In this way it will stay up to date and no fee have to be charged.
Lots of valid orders are older than 3 days.  It is nice when a crash comes to know who is willing to buy cheaply.  The part of the book which is crossed - is different.  These guys clearly aren't getting their connections with opposing parties.  These orders are therefore invalid.  I have a valid order which has been on the book a very long time.  We don't want to kill all valid orders older than 3 days - the book will disappear.



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bones
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December 05, 2013, 07:54:59 PM
 #2098

please cancel my sell order from the book, thanks, sales completed
Faraday
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December 05, 2013, 08:07:27 PM
 #2099

Also I asked about distributed exchange progress as you may want to factor this into how much time you spend setting up a new system:

I hope to start testing before the end of the year. I think most implementations are nearing completion.
maxmint
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December 05, 2013, 08:08:41 PM
 #2100

please cancel my sell order from the book, thanks, sales completed

Order book updated.

I suppose one way you could do it is to set up a bitcoin address for the order book, all orders must send 0.01 to this address with a message containing trade info and link to bitcointalk profile or something. Once the order is filled they must send 0.0005 (covers the miners fee) from the same address with a message to remove the order, and then 0.005 will be sent back to the same address and the order removed. I suppose there could also be a option to send 0.00006 from the same address with a message if you wished to change the order.
Anyway that's probably all too complicated but just suggestion to think about  Wink If it was me I don't think I'd bother adding fees to place orders as it seems like it will create a lot more work.

That's a great idea in theory, but it would cause lots of extra work when done manually.
But maybe this could be automated. I'll put that one on my list.

I agree that something like this is the best solution. But this is not really ideal, for example J.R has posted his sell order 1750 MSC @ 0.7, I'm sure the order is still valid after 3 days and I doubt he wants to keep posting it again. Which is why I proposed that all overlapping orders are removed after X days rather than every order.

I also see this as a good solution. The only problem is this: I can't be sure who is the "bad" guy and who is the "good" guy. Let's say I'm a seller and I have an order in the crossed book because there are two buyers at my exact price. I try to contact both buyers but they don't react. After 3 days my order gets deleted because of that – even though I would be willing to sell.

So if I remove orders from the crossed book I likely also remove orders from someone who actually would be willing to honor his offer.

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