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Author Topic: MasterCoin Buyer/Seller Thread  (Read 225269 times)
mishax1
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January 13, 2014, 08:37:43 PM
 #3041

Well, there are over 9000msc on masterxchange - https://masterchest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1MaStErt4XsYHPwfrN9TpgdURLhHTdMenH

It will be a hard ride..
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January 13, 2014, 08:44:01 PM
 #3042

Here is what I feel will happens roughly :

if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

In my humble opinion, trading OTC will impact the market more than trading quietly on an exchange.

First, all trades impact the quantities available in the same way, if you sell 1000 MSC OTC, that will always be 1000 MSC that wont be bought on the market. There is no "if you dont trade on the exchange the price will not be impacted !".
Thats an economical fallacy; the price converges to the same value everywhere and the exchange is a part of the market in the same way that the OTC is.

Second, saying that you have X quantities to sell at Y prices is much worse than trading them little by little : As long as the market expect a bigger quantity to be traded, the price will correct itself until the price discovery process is finished. Thats like bill gates announcing that he will sell 1% of MSFT the next week. What huge holders are doing is that they pay brokers to liquidate the quantities as quietly as possible on the marketplaces.

Having said all that, I will add that this is only an opinion and that its really great that JR is commiting himself to Mastercoin full time Smiley

This is all fascinating to follow in term of economic theory

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

Still quite new to the economics of this, but am I right in saying no one will want to buy now that you have admitted to wanting to dump thousands of coins?
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January 13, 2014, 08:56:00 PM
 #3043


Still quite new to the economics of this, but am I right in saying no one will want to buy now that you have admitted to wanting to dump thousands of coins?

No.
A lot of people have sold lots of coins in the past weeks so a lot of people have bought them.
JR is selling a large amount, it has impacted the price, but there are probably a lot of people ready to enter the market or lower the average price they got in.

The first Mastercoin / Bitcoin exchange : https://masterxchange.com
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January 13, 2014, 09:30:50 PM
 #3044

Still quite new to the economics of this, but am I right in saying no one will want to buy now that you have admitted to wanting to dump thousands of coins?
Relax.  It is still a tiny percentage of the whole system.  It is good that the price goes down.  Everyone gets an extreme discount.  A few weeks ago, how many people were saying: "damn, the price is too high now.  If only I could get some Mastercoin at a reasonable price - I'd be in big time."  Well, here is that unexpected discount.  JR is going to be saying" I told you so" in about 6 months or a year when MSC is 1:1 with BTC. 

Folks, this is the very last buying opportunity before MSC gets launch due to the cool functionality of the DEx and others.  Mark my words.  Now go buy some very cheap coins.

Thanks. Still learning here  Wink
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January 13, 2014, 09:33:25 PM
 #3045

I'm not sure why anyone is bothering debating the market price of something that has virtually no volume what so ever. I'm not even sure why anyone is bothering to trade it before it's even finished.

JR- while I don't fault you for selling some MSC, as a founder, it probably wasn't a very good idea regardless. The market just isn't mature enough to handle it. It's being exacerbated by the fact that you've moved your price lower to chase a market that's running FROM you. I understand that you have a bill to pay, but I'm sure Satoshi's had some hard times too since 2009. Even if it were to pay for his kids cancer, the market would have reacted very badly and it would have cast a perpetual pale over all of Bitcoin. The only reason why the bitcoin narrative isn't "Oh yeah, but that Satoshi Guy is a rich jerk just selling his coins to fleece everyone" is because his coins (for whatever reason) have never moved. I understand your thinking, but I think it's not proving to be such a good idea. Please consider rescinding the offer and pledging some sort of "lock out" period during which your coins will stay put. I understand it's to allow you to work on MSC full time, but the speed at which MSC gets to where it's going isn't as important as getting there intact.

Anyway, my faith isn't shaken, but I respectfully disagree with your sale of coins- at the very minimum you should stick to your original price exclusively. Chasing the market down tingles everyones 'panic' whiskers.

Personally however, even though I think your decision was well reasoned, you've shot yourself in the foot. Any logical potential buyer can only assume you will continue to chase the price down regardless of what you promise at this point. The best thing to do would be to cancel the sale, and if someone contacts you on the side, you can make a private sale without informing the market. Additionally, you've also stolen the market from anyone else who would want to participate in 'trading'. No serious investor would bother buying coin by coin from the exchange if they can get lot chunks from you. You are unfairly competing with your markets co-investors, many of whom got involved with the idea that you would get fabulously rich *one day* and not *sell out to pay bills* today.

If you insist on going ahead with the sale: I would say to make the sale massive and one-time-only. Sell more then 70% of your holdings at --dirt-- cheap prices effectively 're-simulating' the exodus buy in process. Don't let greed get the better of you. Having 30% of what you hold is more then enough to make you fabulously rich if this really takes off and selling 70% dirt cheap should still raise a substantial amount of BTC. Ironically, maybe having 100% of what you have now might threaten your ability to ever really make MSC a hit. Not to mention the project is open source and you seriously, seriously, risk people who are unhappy defecting, and restarting with a new exodus address. By the time MSC is up and running and before it's a market hit, MSC software will be advanced enough in functionality that an "alt-copy" of mastercoin could offer all the same functionality of MSC but feel more "fair" to the users. Litecoin was essentially the reaction of users that felt GPU mining was a sort of unfair initial distribution of wealth. In the case of MSC, a copy-cat would have all the same functionality, but no obvious "rich guy" to sling stones at. XRP keeps the bulk of the ripples to themselves, but they are having serious problems getting over the 'unfairness' feeling. A sense of true "ownership" by members, no matter how small their holdings are, is important to success. With even bitcoin there are still hard feelings over the holding of early adopters. Not that I don't think it's fair: they did take the risk at the beginning. But that's not quite the same with MSC, as everyone had to 'pay' to play, with bitcoin that's become quite valuable. At the end of the day, you still have our BTC. It's only your promise that you won't spend it that keeps it from moving. Selling your MSC as the founder in a way that seems like profiteering, weakens our trust in this idea.

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January 13, 2014, 09:34:59 PM
 #3046

so when is this downtrend turning around?
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January 13, 2014, 09:39:18 PM
 #3047


Still quite new to the economics of this, but am I right in saying no one will want to buy now that you have admitted to wanting to dump thousands of coins?

No.
A lot of people have sold lots of coins in the past weeks so a lot of people have bought them.
JR is selling a large amount, it has impacted the price, but there are probably a lot of people ready to enter the market or lower the average price they got in.

I think we drastically over estimate how many people are read/willing/interested or even know about, this market.

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January 13, 2014, 09:41:23 PM
 #3048


Still quite new to the economics of this, but am I right in saying no one will want to buy now that you have admitted to wanting to dump thousands of coins?

No.
A lot of people have sold lots of coins in the past weeks so a lot of people have bought them.
JR is selling a large amount, it has impacted the price, but there are probably a lot of people ready to enter the market or lower the average price they got in.

I think we drastically over estimate how many people are read/willing/interested or even know about, this market.


Out of the coins that required an IPO, mastercoin is the most lackluster. No one really cares for this coin.

I've invested in most of coins with a fresh architecture, but i will never invest in MSC. It's trying to compete with LTC for a bitcoin secondary.

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January 13, 2014, 09:43:50 PM
 #3049


Still quite new to the economics of this, but am I right in saying no one will want to buy now that you have admitted to wanting to dump thousands of coins?

No.
A lot of people have sold lots of coins in the past weeks so a lot of people have bought them.
JR is selling a large amount, it has impacted the price, but there are probably a lot of people ready to enter the market or lower the average price they got in.

I think we drastically over estimate how many people are read/willing/interested or even know about, this market.


Out of the coins that required an IPO, mastercoin is the most lackluster. No one really cares for this coin.

Yeah, as if you've been around long enough to even know.......

Edit to respond to your un-marked stealth edit:

Quote
I've invested in most of coins with a fresh architecture, but i will never invest in MSC. It's trying to compete with LTC for a bitcoin secondary.

Thanks for proving me right. :-)

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January 13, 2014, 11:08:30 PM
 #3050

so when is this downtrend turning around?

Seems it has stopped on 0.1 bottom.
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January 13, 2014, 11:34:05 PM
 #3051


Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

I agree with you. Thats commendable

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January 13, 2014, 11:43:59 PM
 #3052

Here is what I feel will happens roughly :

if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

In my humble opinion, trading OTC will impact the market more than trading quietly on an exchange.

First, all trades impact the quantities available in the same way, if you sell 1000 MSC OTC, that will always be 1000 MSC that wont be bought on the market. There is no "if you dont trade on the exchange the price will not be impacted !".
Thats an economical fallacy; the price converges to the same value everywhere and the exchange is a part of the market in the same way that the OTC is.

Second, saying that you have X quantities to sell at Y prices is much worse than trading them little by little : As long as the market expect a bigger quantity to be traded, the price will correct itself until the price discovery process is finished. Thats like bill gates announcing that he will sell 1% of MSFT the next week. What huge holders are doing is that they pay brokers to liquidate the quantities as quietly as possible on the marketplaces.

Having said all that, I will add that this is only an opinion and that its really great that JR is commiting himself to Mastercoin full time Smiley

This is all fascinating to follow in term of economic theory

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

JR, I'm sorry to point this out, but when you made the announcement 5 days ago, you wrote:
"I hope to sell 3-6% of my total MSC holdings (5000-10000 MSC). If I haven't sold them by August 1st 2014, I'll sell more aggressively.".
First, it would appear you didn't run the announcement by the Board. Ripper had to immediately start speaking on your behalf to clarify the message. It appears you ran solo, without analyzing what kind of message your announcement sends. This shows questionable judgement on your part.

Second, could you please explain why, when you just caused a panic sell 5 days ago, you cause another drop by forgetting your promise of keeping the prices you announced until August? Kindly explain your thought process, because I'm really at a loss. The founder should act in a predictable, altruistic way.

I would also suggest you do a session similar to Reddit's AMA, where the community can send you questions, and you actually answer them. This is the only ICT project I've ever been involved in where the leader is the least visible and most unavailable person in the project. It should be the other way around.

My apologies for the harsh words, J.R., but I think we deserve answers.
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January 14, 2014, 12:10:32 AM
 #3053

Here is what I feel will happens roughly :

if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

In my humble opinion, trading OTC will impact the market more than trading quietly on an exchange.

First, all trades impact the quantities available in the same way, if you sell 1000 MSC OTC, that will always be 1000 MSC that wont be bought on the market. There is no "if you dont trade on the exchange the price will not be impacted !".
Thats an economical fallacy; the price converges to the same value everywhere and the exchange is a part of the market in the same way that the OTC is.

Second, saying that you have X quantities to sell at Y prices is much worse than trading them little by little : As long as the market expect a bigger quantity to be traded, the price will correct itself until the price discovery process is finished. Thats like bill gates announcing that he will sell 1% of MSFT the next week. What huge holders are doing is that they pay brokers to liquidate the quantities as quietly as possible on the marketplaces.

Having said all that, I will add that this is only an opinion and that its really great that JR is commiting himself to Mastercoin full time Smiley

This is all fascinating to follow in term of economic theory

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

JR, I'm sorry to point this out, but when you made the announcement 5 days ago, you wrote:
"I hope to sell 3-6% of my total MSC holdings (5000-10000 MSC). If I haven't sold them by August 1st 2014, I'll sell more aggressively.".
First, it would appear you didn't run the announcement by the Board. Ripper had to immediately start speaking on your behalf to clarify the message. It appears you ran solo, without analyzing what kind of message your announcement sends. This shows questionable judgement on your part.

Second, could you please explain why, when you just caused a panic sell 5 days ago, you cause another drop by forgetting your promise of keeping the prices you announced until August? Kindly explain your thought process, because I'm really at a loss. The founder should act in a predictable, altruistic way.

I would also suggest you do a session similar to Reddit's AMA, where the community can send you questions, and you actually answer them. This is the only ICT project I've ever been involved in where the leader is the least visible and most unavailable person in the project. It should be the other way around.

My apologies for the harsh words, J.R., but I think we deserve answers.


Sure no problem.

Yes, the board was aware I would be selling (and in fact had been urging me to do so for some time). I don't think anybody was prepared for the way people panicked though. Ron (Ripper) had to jump on reddit and calm people's fears because I was offline at that time. He and I had been discussing my planned sale just a few hours before I announced it.

August 1st is when I qualify for long-term capital gains on my Mastercoins, and therefore I'm more willing to sell when we get there. I did not mean to imply that I would never change my price between now and then.

I REALLY want to work full-time on Mastercoin, and that is what is driving me to do this, painful though it is to see how the price has fallen. The price movement is simply what happens when somebody sells into very thin volume. Hopefully the current price will be a window of opportunity for a few people who've been kicking themselves for missing out on the initial 1Exodus distribution. Smiley

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January 14, 2014, 03:42:17 AM
 #3054

Here is what I feel will happens roughly :

if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

In my humble opinion, trading OTC will impact the market more than trading quietly on an exchange.

First, all trades impact the quantities available in the same way, if you sell 1000 MSC OTC, that will always be 1000 MSC that wont be bought on the market. There is no "if you dont trade on the exchange the price will not be impacted !".
Thats an economical fallacy; the price converges to the same value everywhere and the exchange is a part of the market in the same way that the OTC is.

Second, saying that you have X quantities to sell at Y prices is much worse than trading them little by little : As long as the market expect a bigger quantity to be traded, the price will correct itself until the price discovery process is finished. Thats like bill gates announcing that he will sell 1% of MSFT the next week. What huge holders are doing is that they pay brokers to liquidate the quantities as quietly as possible on the marketplaces.

Having said all that, I will add that this is only an opinion and that its really great that JR is commiting himself to Mastercoin full time Smiley

This is all fascinating to follow in term of economic theory

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

JR, I'm sorry to point this out, but when you made the announcement 5 days ago, you wrote:
"I hope to sell 3-6% of my total MSC holdings (5000-10000 MSC). If I haven't sold them by August 1st 2014, I'll sell more aggressively.".
First, it would appear you didn't run the announcement by the Board. Ripper had to immediately start speaking on your behalf to clarify the message. It appears you ran solo, without analyzing what kind of message your announcement sends. This shows questionable judgement on your part.

Second, could you please explain why, when you just caused a panic sell 5 days ago, you cause another drop by forgetting your promise of keeping the prices you announced until August? Kindly explain your thought process, because I'm really at a loss. The founder should act in a predictable, altruistic way.

I would also suggest you do a session similar to Reddit's AMA, where the community can send you questions, and you actually answer them. This is the only ICT project I've ever been involved in where the leader is the least visible and most unavailable person in the project. It should be the other way around.

My apologies for the harsh words, J.R., but I think we deserve answers.


Sure no problem.

Yes, the board was aware I would be selling (and in fact had been urging me to do so for some time). I don't think anybody was prepared for the way people panicked though. Ron (Ripper) had to jump on reddit and calm people's fears because I was offline at that time. He and I had been discussing my planned sale just a few hours before I announced it.

August 1st is when I qualify for long-term capital gains on my Mastercoins, and therefore I'm more willing to sell when we get there. I did not mean to imply that I would never change my price between now and then.

I REALLY want to work full-time on Mastercoin, and that is what is driving me to do this, painful though it is to see how the price has fallen. The price movement is simply what happens when somebody sells into very thin volume. Hopefully the current price will be a window of opportunity for a few people who've been kicking themselves for missing out on the initial 1Exodus distribution. Smiley
you won't stop until you destroy the market? you really don't  known what  you are doing means ?  if  you relly want to sell, release a client ,give a big news ,people won't buy things that is droping price. you can check the volume of the market ,it's dying. no one dare  to buy before you finish .
bad english ,wish you can understand.
if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

very right!!!!
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January 14, 2014, 04:07:12 AM
 #3055

Clearly, there isn't enough MSC liquidity to support the price.

Compare these two coins:

5    Namecoin       $ 49,150,912   $ 6.34   7,758,492 NMC   $ 1,921,747   -2.20 %   
6    MasterCoin   $ 45,917,394   $ 81.53   563,162 MSC*   $ 66,636   -30.26 %   

Namecoin has traded over 2 million USD in one day.   Mastercoin can barely handle 66K USD in one day.

The difference between a 100% pre-mined coin and a conventional alt-coin is that the former isn't used to constant selling.

Conventional alt-coins always have sellers in the form of miners,  so the price is usually very close to equilibrium as compared to a coin like MSC.


      
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BitThink
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January 14, 2014, 04:16:57 AM
 #3056

If at last JR sold out his coins at exodus price, is it a good thing or bad thing for better distribution? Why people care the current price (when there's nothing even released) so much? I suppose Mastercoin is not developed for people to speculate in the short term. It's really ironic that people complain for high price (unfair, we need better distribution. Initial investor should not hoard and sell more in low price) and then complain again for low price (unfair, we need higher price. Initial investor should hold forever).

No matter what's the current price, in the long term the price of Mastercoin only depends on how many users are using its deprived products. How about forget about the current price and concentrate more on the progress of the project (the DEX, the wallet, ...). If there's nothing out in time, then no matter how high the current price it is, the Mastercoin will become worthless anyway.
Buratino
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January 14, 2014, 04:40:49 AM
 #3057

OK, it was happened, when will the MSC rate reach previous value (0.02 BTC)?

tantanbit
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January 14, 2014, 05:17:27 AM
 #3058

so when is this downtrend turning around?
when the man finish his show
romerun
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Bitcoin is new, makes sense to hodl.


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January 14, 2014, 05:35:06 AM
 #3059

it's just msc not listed in BTC-e

Clearly, there isn't enough MSC liquidity to support the price.

Compare these two coins:

5    Namecoin       $ 49,150,912   $ 6.34   7,758,492 NMC   $ 1,921,747   -2.20 %   
6    MasterCoin   $ 45,917,394   $ 81.53   563,162 MSC*   $ 66,636   -30.26 %   

Namecoin has traded over 2 million USD in one day.   Mastercoin can barely handle 66K USD in one day.

The difference between a 100% pre-mined coin and a conventional alt-coin is that the former isn't used to constant selling.

Conventional alt-coins always have sellers in the form of miners,  so the price is usually very close to equilibrium as compared to a coin like MSC.
marcelus
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January 14, 2014, 08:00:44 AM
 #3060

If at last JR sold out his coins at exodus price, is it a good thing or bad thing for better distribution? Why people care the current price (when there's nothing even released) so much? I suppose Mastercoin is not developed for people to speculate in the short term. It's really ironic that people complain for high price (unfair, we need better distribution. Initial investor should not hoard and sell more in low price) and then complain again for low price (unfair, we need higher price. Initial investor should hold forever).

No matter what's the current price, in the long term the price of Mastercoin only depends on how many users are using its deprived products. How about forget about the current price and concentrate more on the progress of the project (the DEX, the wallet, ...). If there's nothing out in time, then no matter how high the current price it is, the Mastercoin will become worthless anyway.

+1

The master protocol's success has nothing to do with who owns its tokens as long as its tokens are distributed. JR selling his coins is actually good for the project as he holds an unhealthy amount as it stands. 
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