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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761537 times)
joefox
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February 27, 2014, 03:26:33 PM
 #38561

Current source code (with comments) should be shared to a select group of people.

I am assuming the actual source has comments.

CFB, does it?

Very little.

This is bad communication.

I admin the Nxt Wiki at http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/ Please support my work by donating to Nxt account #1234567740944417915
Damelon
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February 27, 2014, 03:27:19 PM
 #38562

CfB, is this the case? Was this part of your contract with BCNext?

I know that Cunicula proposed to use ur scheme but BCNext went another way and there was a reason for that.

What was the reason?
Transparency please...
otherwise it is a very good example why people get frustrated: they try to improve things, but then you say that things are done the way they are done, because BCNext decided to do it that way. But why?

U'll get the reason if u dive deeper. I won't reveal it, sorry.

Perfect... Thanks.
How do you expect the community to take over, when you hold back informations...?

It seems that I am the only one having issues with this.
So maybe it's the best to lean back and watch as none of my initiatives have gthered attention so far.

No.  I am right there with you and so are many others.  But leaning back to watch what happens next seems to be the only "action" we can take until the source code is released and becomes OURS, not THEIRS.

I am on board with you, too.
Sorry, but Yoda-talk is not helping at all.
As I said: people are actively reaching out here. So move a bit, too, BCNext.

I can understand if CfB is contractually obliged not to tell anything, but BCNext is reading this, too.

And I would like to appeal to change your way of wanting to go ahead by sharing more information with the people who are developing here.
I don't need this info myself, so even do it via PM if need be, but change!

It's a simple matter of changing your mind, because the circumstances have changed.


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ChuckOne
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February 27, 2014, 03:30:59 PM
 #38563

I am on board with you, too.
Sorry, but Yoda-talk is not helping at all.
As I said: people are actively reaching out here. So move a bit, too, BCNext.

I can understand if CfB is contractually obliged not to tell anything, but BCNext is reading this, too.

And I would like to appeal to change your way of wanting to go ahead by sharing more information with the people who are developing here.
I don't need this info myself, so even do it via PM if need be, but change!

It's a simple matter of changing your mind, because the circumstances have changed.

Could you describe the nature of these changes?

I am still very satisfied with the development.
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February 27, 2014, 03:32:18 PM
 #38564

I proposed a simpler method, but CIYAM said it was impossible.
Do you think using current method (without the random factor) we can simply reduce the time between blocks to 50 seconds? 30 seconds? 10 seconds?

James

We can reduce. But if u set gap between blocks to 10 sec then u'll need 6 times more confirmations to get the same reliability.
CIYAM
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February 27, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
 #38565

We can reduce. But if u set gap between blocks to 10 sec then u'll need 6 times more confirmations to get the same reliability.

Exactly what I was trying to explain (perhaps you'll accept it when it comes from CfB rather than me).

This is exactly the problem that so many of the "alts" have - they think that you can just reduce the confirmation time and everything is fine.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
bitcoinpaul
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February 27, 2014, 03:35:36 PM
 #38566

Sorry, but Yoda-talk is not helping at all.

I think you are dead on with this sentence.

I love this little guy
chanc3r
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February 27, 2014, 03:35:48 PM
 #38567

I think if we had two phases of block creation where new transactions are queued for the next block while the hallmark servers achieve consensus on the previously queued transactions and then broadcast to all the non-hallmarked nodes, then 10 seconds is very achievable.

And once again - James goes of into "fantasy land" where real things like "network latency" don't exist.

You were told the reasons - if you just want to ignore them that's fine - but you can't change facts with statements.


Traditional transaction processors generate 1 record per account transaction and confirm it.
Existing card/ATM networks cheat because they do 'authorise' and then confirm/clear the transaction later, and they can only do this because they can reverse and everyone is identifiable.. This model has always been flawed and what is being suggested sounds like it.
The above sounds like its going in that direction by segmenting network/node functions and creating special nodes, this will end up like the above I suspect and flawed.

This is a hard problem - if it was easy to solve the bank networks would not be like they are, they were built when latency was a much bigger problem than it is today, and while its much less of a problem, I agree with CIYAM we ignore it at our peril.

Existing transaction processing systems create a transaction or a block on demand for a single transaction when it arrives, the record is linked to the account and in most systems the TPS limit (H/W not withstanding) it based the time to confirm the transaction (checks, business rules etc) by a single Transaction processor and the account (which is normally locked for the duration of a live transaction) but other than that the systems are inherently asynchronous and process as many transactions in parallel are there are processors.

There are millions of mobiles in Africa sending transactions, via GSM SMS + VPN back to servers in Europe, at over 300tps with confirmation times of less than 10s and these transactions are fully authorised and cleared, and this number is going to grow and the systems exist to service it.

In NXT as I understand it we have a record that is going to be formed whether there are transactions are not, and a single transaction processor - the node that has been chosen to forge.
At 100 tps, with one block every minute that means 6000 records in a block - or have I got that wrong?
So this node needs to confirm all the transactions in the block and then broadcast the results to the rest.
So we have all these nodes available to do work but only one of them at anyone time processes the transactions.
And all those transactions need to go to the right node irrespective of the latency from the client to the forging node.

Depends what your market is, if you never want to get into the physical retail environment - this is not an issue and you can drop it it can be handled in client software, the website takes your payment, completes the purchase and later you get final confirmation or a rejection - just like any other credit card and bitcoin!

If you want it used in shops, then when you are standing at a till, with a queue of people behind you, there needs to be a guaranteed transaction performance - this is hard and this is why the card companies technically cheat and have built the business model to ensure other people carry the liability e.g. retailer / customer.

Solving this is a combination of node, network and the ability to marshall the work, get it to the right place in the network in advance of execution and then execute it in a guaranteed timeframe - when you know the best timeframe you can achieve then communities like retail will look at it and decide whether its ok, do you need to be sub-second - no, can you take minutes - no.

I can see the issue but I cannot tell you the answer - if I knew the answer I would be building it Smiley perhaps between us we will find it.

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February 27, 2014, 03:39:24 PM
 #38568

Someone add Nxt to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency#Notable_cryptocurrencies

joefox
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February 27, 2014, 03:39:58 PM
 #38569

CfB, is this the case? Was this part of your contract with BCNext?

I know that Cunicula proposed to use ur scheme but BCNext went another way and there was a reason for that.

I'd love to hear his reasoning. Another example of bad communication.

I've flogged this horse enough. We all know about the smoke and mirrors involved at Nxt's core. We will overcome it. But the COST is large, and BCNext has NO RIGHT to express frustration at this community's inability to read his paranoid mind.

Thank god for the wiki. Otherwise we'd be nowhere.

I admin the Nxt Wiki at http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/ Please support my work by donating to Nxt account #1234567740944417915
CIYAM
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February 27, 2014, 03:40:13 PM
 #38570

I can see the issue but I cannot tell you the answer - if I knew the answer I would be building it Smiley perhaps between us we will find it.

Unfortunately there is no "easy answer" - basically retailers will still have to take "risks" on blockchain confirmations the same as they do when accepting credit cards (that could be stolen) or even cash (that could be fake).

Things like "green addresses" are a another possibility but once again end up being "centralised" ideas.

Personally I think the 1000+ TPS "hype" is pretty much just that (if we are talking about properly "secured" txs).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
ChuckOne
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February 27, 2014, 03:41:50 PM
 #38571

We can reduce. But if u set gap between blocks to 10 sec then u'll need 6 times more confirmations to get the same reliability.

I understand that, when it comes to finding consensus, we should have at least a large number of blocks (1440) to trust the NXTs in someone's account.

But for simple transactions?
Damelon
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February 27, 2014, 03:42:50 PM
 #38572

I am on board with you, too.
Sorry, but Yoda-talk is not helping at all.
As I said: people are actively reaching out here. So move a bit, too, BCNext.

I can understand if CfB is contractually obliged not to tell anything, but BCNext is reading this, too.

And I would like to appeal to change your way of wanting to go ahead by sharing more information with the people who are developing here.
I don't need this info myself, so even do it via PM if need be, but change!

It's a simple matter of changing your mind, because the circumstances have changed.

Could you describe the nature of these changes?

I am still very satisfied with the development.

The nature would be giving answers to developers who are obviously stuck when trying to figure out if the current TF will be the TF we will be dealing with in April.

There is much unclear about this, so I see developers asking questions whether or not things will be implemented or if they will be working with the current set of "rules".

If you operate under the assumption that "full" TF will be implemented in April and then you get an ambiguous message that says "you have to develop it yourselves, maybe" that creates an atmosphere were no one is certain of what to do anymore.

If then people ask clarification and all they get back is "maybe" or "you need to dig deeper" that doesn't help. A simple "yes" or "no" isn't that hard.

If you also get the message  that BCNext is "disappointed" that would top it for me. You can't pronounce judgment without providing the parameters on which that judgement is based. That's like telling someone he failed a test without also telling him the system of scoring. It just makes people feel bad and at the same time you don't hand them the tools to work at it or to decide the actual judgement isn't even valid in the first place.

So basically what I am asking is for BCNext to abandon his policy of vagueness and just give clear answers if qualified people ask them.

I ask this not from my expertise in computers, but from my expertise as a group worker and out of concern. Several people have already expressed extreme frustration. This is something to take seriously, especially because these are people who have proven to be committed and not lazy.

Edit: I would like to add that CfB may be contractually obliged to not share. I do not know this. I am describing what I am seeing here and hoping it will be taken to heart. As said: all this vagueness comes at a huge cost. I add that it isn't needed.

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Labteck
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February 27, 2014, 03:44:10 PM
 #38573


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CIYAM
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February 27, 2014, 03:45:01 PM
 #38574

But for simple transactions?

That's where we have to work out "trade offs".

IMO having lots of forks is not a great idea (a fork of > 2 rarely happens in Bitcoin).

Remember the "average Joe" going into a 7-11 to purchase a "can of soda" probably isn't even "capable" of trying to do a "double spend" so is it any more likely to occur than if they "slipped the soda can into their pocket"?

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
redsn0w
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February 27, 2014, 03:45:42 PM
 #38575

I proposed a simpler method, but CIYAM said it was impossible.
Do you think using current method (without the random factor) we can simply reduce the time between blocks to 50 seconds? 30 seconds? 10 seconds?

James

We can reduce. But if u set gap between blocks to 10 sec then u'll need 6 times more confirmations to get the same reliability.

So... more nodes ?
CIYAM
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February 27, 2014, 03:47:51 PM
 #38576

So... more nodes ?

It doesn't *change* the *latency* to have more nodes.

The latency is due to the physical hardware of the internet itself and some of the software (in particular things like the GCF) that sit at the fairly low levels above that.

Adding "more hops" can actually only make things *slower*.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
bitcoinpaul
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February 27, 2014, 03:49:46 PM
 #38577



Best post of the day.
landomata
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February 27, 2014, 03:50:08 PM
 #38578

I proposed a simpler method, but CIYAM said it was impossible.
Do you think using current method (without the random factor) we can simply reduce the time between blocks to 50 seconds? 30 seconds? 10 seconds?

James

We can reduce. But if u set gap between blocks to 10 sec then u'll need 6 times more confirmations to get the same reliability.

Would Nxt be slower or faster?

mcjavar
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February 27, 2014, 03:50:45 PM
 #38579

image

I lold very hard Smiley
Come-from-Beyond
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February 27, 2014, 03:51:15 PM
 #38580

It doesn't *change* the *latency* to have more nodes.

The latency is due to the physical hardware of the internet itself and some of the software (in particular things like the GCF) that sit at the fairly low levels above that.

Adding "more hops" can actually only make things *slower*.

GCF is good for developing schemes that will work in interplanetary environment... Let's thank the China govt.
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