Economic Devastation

[STT]

The Yankees are already in the UK with military bases, thats part of NATO and I dont think anyone wants that to change.  UK is in cyprus and Germany though less so since the wall fell.  I thought the reference was Russia invading Europe but its not going to do that as its no longer strong enough or likely to benefit.
   Drastic measures like this is unlikely on all sides, the devastation I foresee would be a natural phenomena as a consequence to the hollowing out of value in national debt and notes.   The alternate view is we stagnate like Japan has for over twenty years, I dont see that occurring worldwide and there should be more friction.   In a few countries now the population is in majority under thirty years old and it requires growth not just as a policy or ideal but to live.  So there is a force for change perfectly natural probably just a repeat in history is at that some point everything much change

And they are good at manufacturing crises.

never attribute to malice that which is adequately described by incompetence . 

[CoinCube]

I can't find a single European who doesn't believe there should be at least some social contract with honest governance. The idea of total individual sovereignty is alien to every single European I have ever encountered.

America is basically split into the idiotssimpletons that don't really believe in socialism for idealistic reasons but just want to suck the tit of debt-consumerism and welfare, and the Constitutionalists who are fiercely individually sovereignty minded. There are other subsets, but basically it boils down to that major split.

Whereas, Europeans are ideologically invested in the concept of a social fairness and contract. Fairness is Marxism and it is very ingrained in European psychology. Whereas, Americans are bribed but they don't really for the most part believe in Marxism ideologically (well some have been indoctrinated and repeat the words but I think they are too stupidpreoccupied/uninterested to even understand what they are saying in any ideological sense, in reality they just love their Walmart and food stamps and rent assistance).

Look there is no way to remove the fact that government will never take care of anyone. The only purpose of government is a racket to steal for the powerful. That is way an anarchy minded American thinks. Whereas, a European would not want a chaotic outcome. They'd want some reasoned society. Americans are "don't tread on me". No other predominant consideration, just "don't tread on me". It is not a theoretical, rather it is "I have a gun and you are not going to tread on me, except via my cold dead hand".

I would point out you appear to be undervaluing the benefits of collectivism. You have correctly highlighted how modern form collectivism is unsustainable, but you appear to jump from there to the conclusion that all form of collectivism, the social contract, and the concept of social fairness itself is undesirable. This jump appears logically flawed.

Humans are collectivist by nature. We have been hardwired this way by generations of natural selection. Each human interaction can viewed as a choice between cooperation, and defection. Cooperation involves a mutually beneficial exchange that improves the wellbeing of both participants. Defection is an interaction that benefits one party at the expense of another. Defection implies violence, the threat of violence, ignorance, or forced interaction.  

Society as a whole is better off if its members choose cooperation over defection. However, for an individual defection is sometimes the optimal choice. Defection comes in many forms but theft and rape are probably the most clear cut examples. Cooperation likewise comes in many forms and shades of gray exist.

Collectivism is the evolved response to limit defection. The desire to pool some resources for the greater good, establish basic governance and the creation a social contract arises naturally in response to the need to combat defection and maximize cooperation and group survival. Merely pointing out the admittedly significant flaws in the modern form of scaled up collectivism is not a compelling argument for a return to pure anarchism.

I have noted on several occasions that you associate pure individualism and anarchism with a return to nature.

Nature is a whole. You either ban it, or love it. I rationally chose the latter.
I don't hate nature when certain actors do heinous acts. I hate those actors. I accept nature as a beautiful system.

 
However, you do not seem to accept that collectivism and a social contract are not only a part of nature but play a critical and natural role in limiting defection and maximizing cooperation in groups. A rejection of the social contract in particular leads to an acceptance of defection as “natural” and perhaps even leads to a glorification of violence and theft as natural and right as part of “evolutional fitness”. I have seen some signs of this line of thinking in your prior posts.

...
I am repulsed by people who are repulsed by human trafficking, because they are anti-competition, anti-resilience, and thus pro-eugenics (your links to junk science supporting genetic filtering of society was very Nazi-like scary underlying subconscious). Afaik, you are genuinely repulsed by human trafficking. Rather I see it as nature's way of competition and evolution, i.e. survival-of-the-fittest. I see it as a beautiful system of maximizing resilience. I think more like a native in this aspect, i.e. I want to live in harmony with nature. I am not referring to the Marxism of the Mexican Aztec society which did human sacrifice to purify the society.
...

Now it is certainly true that modern collectivism in conjunction with fiat economics appears to be vulnerable to many new types of defection. Abuse of the welfare and disability system is a form of defection with the victim being the multitude of taxpayers. Fractional reserve lending is a much larger form of defection with the victims being those forced to conduct commerce in fiat economies. However, I believe the answer to these problems is not a call for the collapse of the collectivist order and a return to anarchic individualism but rather to develop solutions that limit these new forms of defection while allowing collectivism to continue in its proper role of promoting cooperation over defection.

[TPTB_need_war]

CoinCube, perhaps my elucidation wasn't entirely clear (perhaps because I wrote that at 1am my time and should have been sleeping instead).

My primary point was not whether collectivism is right or wrong, but that some millions of Americans have the attitude that individualism is superior to collectivism and that I know of no natively born European who has that attitude. Actually I know of one 30-something man from this forum who was I assume was born and lives in Sweden, and he seems to favor some individualistic themes but I doubt he would sacrifice his life with a gun in his cold dead hand for individualism. Also I know of bigtimespaghetti who is younger, immigrated to Europe from apparently a peripheral area, and who has some good logic regarding some individualistic rights but if I am not mistaken he also sympathizes with the social contract as well. These guys also appear to be influenced by what ever culture and environment they are in, but it might also be already ingrained if they tried to move to an environment of rugged individualism. I am not sure. But also consider these 2 guys to be exceptional and that is why they are my recent new friends. I know of another younger European who I don't know too well, except that he is very astute about crypto investing and what is going on in the crypto world, so I assume he may be very individualist focused in his philosophy of social organization, but I haven't really gotten to know that side of him well. So again I am open to learning about exceptions and how prevalent these exceptions are. I would love to know there are European brothers who are fighting for the ideals of individualism as some Americans are.

I also said America has many subsets of attitudes, but that a major fault line divides those that embrace collectivism from those who are staunchly individualistic. Most of the latter (including myself) favor collectivism only on the local community level (e.g. the white Sunday church on the hill where needy people can ask their pastor to help them find a sympathetic community member to offer them some work or helping hand). In short, there are some millions of Americans who absolutely hate the big government social contract. But Europeans embrace a consultation about the EU and nation-state social programs, whereas there are some few millions of Americans who abhor ObamaCare and any involvement of big government in daily life of the individual. And willing to hold their gun in their cold dead hand to defend this philosophy.

So I am claiming (not proven) an observation of a fundamental difference between some millions of Americans as compared to what I think I know about Europe. But if any European wants to offer himself as a counter-example, I love to know of him. Rpietila maybe but every time I think he is really hard core individualist, I get some doubt because he seems sometimes to think in terms of good and evil authority. Whereas, I think all authority is evil. In a local community style collectivism, there really isn't any overriding authority. It is a complex balance of reputations and interworkings that humans have innately worked out over the centuries, and we are prewired to deal with this local defacto style politics where isn't any election and people of positive actions naturally gain more trust in the community. This is entirely different from structures where there is voting, power is granted, etc.. These are always subject to the iron law about power vacuums in that the most corrupt will always rise to control them because power can only be sustained with the most power.

My philosophy is power is inherently corrupting. But my prior posts yesterday were not about arguing my philosophy is correct, but rather arguing about the differences between Europe and America in terms of the number of people who share my philosophy. Europeans appear to believe in PLANNED social organization. Some millions of Americans seem to believe in UNPLANNED social organization.

It is basically a decentralized versus centralized philosophical difference.

I would point out you appear to be undervaluing the benefits of collectivism...

Humans are collectivist by nature. We have been hardwired this way by generations of natural selection...

Society as a whole is better off if its members choose cooperation over defection...

Collectivism is the evolved response to limit defection. The desire to pool some resources for the greater good, establish basic governance and the creation a social contract arises naturally in response to the need to combat defection and maximize cooperation and group survival. Merely pointing out the admittedly significant flaws in the modern form of scaled up collectivism is not a compelling argument for a return to pure anarchism.

I have noted on several occasions that you associate pure individualism and anarchism with a return to nature.

...

However, you do not seem to accept that collectivism and a social contract are not only a part of nature but play a critical and natural role in limiting defection and maximizing cooperation in groups. A rejection of the social contract in particular leads to an acceptance of defection as “natural” and perhaps even leads to a glorification of violence and theft as natural and right as part of “evolutional fitness”. I have seen some signs of this line of thinking in your prior posts.

...

Now it is certainly true that modern collectivism in conjunction with fiat economics appears to be vulnerable to many new types of defection. Abuse of the welfare and disability system is a form of defection...

I am going to write some profound statements which I never before wrote in this thread or else where with such clarity of focus.

What I believe is that the level of power vacuum we get due to collectivism is driven entirely by what is most economically efficient. The level of power vacuum we've seen since the Athenian empire has been driven by two facts:

1. Agricultural Age required aggregation of capital in the form of land and the State to protect the land.

2. Industrial Age required the aggregation of capital to fund the large fixed capital investment of the factory.

Humans are hard-wired for tribal structure which has nothing to do with granting a power vacuum to a collective but rather a naturally annealed set of complex social interactions that form spontaneously. Smooth had recently pointed out that there may be genetic differences and some people may be innately programmed to prefer a collectivist philosophy. Perhaps this was an evolutionary adaption given the reality of the two epochs I enumerated. Note when I arrived in the Philippines in the early 1990s, they didn't have abundant nails in most places, and still very much tribal structured at the local baragay level. So there may be genetic differences, which is why I alluded to that many Americans have native American ancestry and this could plausibly influence their genetics on this issue but I know of no statistical or scientific evidence thereof.

Humans have (at least culturally and environmentally, if not also genetically but surely not homogeneous genetics) adapted to the economic reality of where the power naturally ended up in the power-law distribution of wealth and the critical importance of aggregating capital in those prior two epochs enumerated above. Both the capitalists and labor needed to serve this power vacuum of the collective in order for the economic system of redistribution (from labor to the capitalists but while buying off labor with debt and welfare) to avoid continuous war and chaos that would have been less economic.


And now we enter the Knowledge Age which will decentralize nearly everything.

What you or I believe is irrelevant. Nature will determine what is. Nature has moved to a new paradigm called the Knowledge Age. It is Just Time (for the change in epochs).

I know which economic gravy train I am boarding. You CoinCube seem to be more European in your philosophy and thus should share their fate if I am correct about the economic fundamentals.

The best future for big government socialism appears to be Asia where there is a low of level of government as a share of GDP and the immigrant demographics are very favorable, so the socialism can grow with lots of social promises and debt causing temporal growth to be stimulated and the liabilities failure thereof will come some decades hence. Asia might trend or bifurcate into more decentralization, I am not yet sure. I am in Philippines which is historically is a tribal and decentralized country with very low taxation and government spending as a share of GDP. But this appears to be under intense pressure to trend towards a big government model. I believe the decentralists will reap the huge economic gains regardless where they are physically residing.

I have no desire to create enemies with my statements. I am merely trying to understand where society is now and where it is going. Whether I am wrong or correct about the future, we shall find out. I wish for a world that is meritorious without power vacuums (Coasian barriers to maximum fitness). We know from our up thread discussions that nature finds a balance between completely undamped chaos and some organizational structure. I believe the Knowledge Age is a radical shift to more decentralization of power.


Edit: interestingly we can see Europeans will prefer to focus on reforming the State and repeat their pattern of revolutions which do nothing to eliminate the power vacuum and just install a new head of the same monster paradigm:

http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/38109 (The Coming French Revolution of 2020?)

http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/38311 (Why We Are Doomed To Repeat History?)


Whereas Armstrong's model of the USA is it will break up into regions. I think this is because some Americans don't care what happens to the State or for reforming the State. They just want their individual place/peace:

http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/16967

224 Year Collapsing Wave Structure Points to Breakup of USA

...

There are two types of waves on the 224 Year Cycle – the Collapsing Wave and the Protracted Wave. It appears that the USA is in the Collapsing Wave formation meaning that the 224 year runs from the birth to the peak with the total duration running minimum 296 years with the optimum being 309.6 years meaning the society splits and does not remain intact. A Protracted Wave is a society view where the wave is measured peak to peak totaling 224 years. The second Protracted Wave formation is where governments come and go, but society survives and reforms remaining intact. In the Collapsing Wave structure where it is 224 year from birth to peak, the overall duration appears to be is 296-309 years. for the conclusion whereby society breaks apart and fragmentation emerges..In the case of Rome, 309 years from the assassination of Julius Caesar in 44BC is 265AD where Rome broke apart and the Gallic Empire emerged under Postumus (259-268AD).

This Collapsing Wave structure that the United States appears to be in means it is a one-time-wonder and that the United States will break-up and the there will be no more “united” union. This is becoming self-evidence in the polarization of politics with tremendous differences in culture on a regional basis. The Obamacare is just one aspect revealing the undercurrent whereby one segment of society believes it has a right to force their views upon another group.

So unfortunately, the USA does not appear to be destined to remain intact otherwise we would have seen and overall structured wave of 224 years. We seem to be in the Collapsing Wave with the 224 years was from birth to peak with an overall duration of 309.6 years at best. This appears to be like the Collapsing Wave in Imperial Rome itself whereas from the assassination of Julius Caesar in 44BC to the peak in the glory of Rome and population in the city took place under Marcus Aurelius that was 224 years later in 180AD. The decline that followed brought total chaos, sovereign debt crisis, massive government seizure of capital, fragmentation of the Empire, and in the end, Rome was no longer the Capitol and that became Constantinople followed by the split of East and West. We are much more akin to the this type of Collapsing Wave formation whereby society collapses and breaks apart.

http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/23356 (Will the USA Also Break-up Into Regions?)

http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/17972

MADMAX v Restructure

...

So the collapse of the British Empire resulted in the collapse in purchasing power of the currency, the devaluation of debt, and the loss of territory. It was NOT a MADMAX event such as the fall of Rome. That takes placed when government attacks its citizens, hunts down capital as they are all starting to do now, and keep raising taxes PREVENTING economic growth. That is the substantial difference.

So what are we looking at with the fall of the American Empire? There should be a loss in unification (territory) just as we saw in Britain and the collapse of Russia or even that of Charlemagne. Look at the full history of Britain, you see the tribal Celtic pre-Roman Period, the collapse of Britain back into tribal states post-Rome, this is followed the Anglo-Saxson period of numerous states where we see kings of such places as Kings of Northumbria, Kings of Kent, Archbishops of Canterbury and at York, Kings of Mercia such as Offa who introduces the English Penny, Kings of East Anglia (Viking Coinages), Kings of Wessex, yet it was not until Alfred The Great  (871-899) that we begin to see the unification of the island emerging as  one nation being England and it took until 1707 to create the United Kingdom with Scotland joining.

The future course of the United States will follow the same pattern. Pre-Revolution, you had separate states. That became the UNITED states in 1789. We will see a breakup of the states most likely banding together in regions because of the difference in cultural views such as the Bible Belt. The fight over Obamacare illustrates the stark differences and this is fundamentally wrong for it is forcing one groups interests upon another. There is no such thing as equal rights but money is the exception. We are all treated the same even in law (no exception for politicians and bankers) or we are not a nation of equal rights. You can’t be just a little be pregnant! The US will break up, but it should not go into a MADMAX event as long as we reach resistance from the people. If the people keep just watching their sports and never notice what the governments are doing to their future until it is too late, then it can go too far and that in the MADMAX event the ended the Roman Empire.

There is a danger of a MADMAX event because of the stubborn insistence upon Marxism and we have a crisis in philosophy that is even infecting Britain to this day. I may be the gadfly. Thankfully, I am not 23 and do not have to live my life under this kind of nasty government. If they want to execute me like Socrates, fine. I do share his view it is either the migration of the soul where I will see all my old friends or it will be a peaceful sleep from which I will never be disturbed again. So as he said – go ahead. Do your best. The future that lies ahead I have no desire to participate in.

The above explains why Europe is much more likely to go into MADMAX again (Hitler) than the USA.

I disagree with Armstrong's point in the following blog post, because although Europe has different cultures, it has a common ingrained commitment to the social contract and reforming the State instead of individualism. Europeans want to have a perfect society even if they have varying cultural practices and languages. So Europe will descend into megadeath again.

http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/33872

[Jimmy Russell]

Have no fear Europe!  Have no fear Britain!  The Yankees are NOT coming!  Rest easy!

The yankees are not, but the mohammeds are.. 

[STT]

They are already there, UK has quite a few Muslims from Pakistan and Somalia as former territories in the British empire.  Its not such a problem if people stay within their faith not the radical extremes

junk science supporting genetic filtering of society

Eugenics is a strong belief by quite a few intelligent people, that killing off the perceived weak can only improve the average available to the general population, was not an idea defeated in war.  Unfortunately even a genetically perfect individual can be an idiot and a waste to society

[suda123]

there are no income taxes below $15,500   which is very low money but at least its something

Ditto in the USA and you even can get an Earned Income Credit and other tax rebates for taxes you never paid if you have a couple of dependent kids, so you get paid roughly $4000 from the government for not paying any taxes. I told you many Americans are in love with the bribes in the welfare system.

But all poor people are taxed with gasoline taxes, sales and VAT taxes, cigarette and alcohol taxes, etc..

And the poor are "taxed" by debt and 20% interest rates on credit cards.

Look there is no way to remove the fact that government will never take care of anyone. The only purpose of government is a racket to steal for the powerful. That is way an anarchy minded American thinks. Whereas, a European would not want a chaotic outcome. They'd want some reasoned society. Americans are "don't tread on me". No other predominant consideration, just "don't tread on me". It is not a theoretical, rather it is "I have a gun and you are not going to tread on me, except via my cold dead hand".

We don't pity poor people in the USA as much. I mean we will help out individual cases of genuine hardship on a community level, but the Patriots have the attitude that poor people create their own poverty by being lazy and unmotivated by the welfare system.

But not all Americans are liberty focused. So I am saying there is a very big split in the society. This will come out as civil war soon...

I just noticed all the popular youtube content I watch says the same things days after tptb announces something. I'ts not even funny anymore.

[rpietila]

Your comment is the first I have ever seen discussing a US invasion of Europe.  There is no way that would/will ever happen.  As you point out, the continent is far away from US shores.  And, we trade with Europe, our tourists visit Europe and we buy German cars.  Why would we want to invade?  Europe doesn't even have any natural resources we would like to seize...

The thought of Russians coming to the aid of Europe during a US invasion, now THAT makes me smile. 

Nor does Europe have any guns we would like to seize, we have our own.

Have no fear Europe!  Have no fear Britain!  The Yankees are NOT coming!  Rest easy!

By sentence:

As you point out, the continent is far away from US shores.

As such, this has not repelled successful US invasions to Japan and Europe, against committed defence. US High Seas fleet is sovereign.

And, we trade with Europe, our tourists visit Europe and we buy German cars. 

And you did in WWI as well, nevertheless declared war.

Why would we want to invade?

War, in general, is rarely in the interest of the people. All major wars starting from Napoleon have been fomented, instigated and financed by zionists whose agenda does not equal happiness of people.

Europe doesn't even have any natural resources we would like to seize...

Europe is producing quite a lot of natural resources but since its population is almost double that of North America, and land area is smaller, the consumption situation is net negative.

The thought of Russians coming to the aid of Europe during a US invasion, now THAT makes me smile.

Yes people smile at things they don't understand.

If you would read history, the general sentiment among US population as late as 1916 was to stay away from the war despite large sympathy to the German cause. Going to war allied with the British, the Archenemy since the war of independence, was a ridiculous idea. The Europeans have no reason to think of Russia as their Archenemy and even if they did, remember: one year. Hmm... ominous, what is the year we are living...  

Nor does Europe have any guns we would like to seize, we have our own.

Yes, that is correct. Modern NATO weapons systems are dependent on software upgrades from the US. The generals in Europe try to buy some such weapons to pay homage to the bankers whose front NATO is, while maintaining independent defence. The problem is that the weapons are only effective in shooting civilians from the air (main NATO activity since the fall of Soviet Union). They are disabled against the US. They are inferior to the Russians. Subduing a country if the attacker has high tech and inferior culture, does not work (see list of all NATO ground invasions and their results).

Also, no, you are incorrect. Civilian gun ownership in the US is about 250 million units, in France and Germany combined about 50 million. Per capita US is 2x higher but in absolute values, both are "enough" against an invader who is not welcome. Unlike in 1944, there is no popular support for increasing US/NATO presence anywhere in Europe, even jewmedia cannot hide it.

[TPTB_need_war]

Civilian gun ownership in the US is about 250 million units, in France and Germany combined about 50 million. Per capita US is 2x higher but in absolute values, both are "enough" against an invader who is not welcome. Unlike in 1944, there is no popular support for increasing US/NATO presence anywhere in Europe, even jewmedia cannot hide it.

Contrary to Wikipedia's claim of 30 guns per 100 people in Germany, the national registry only counts 5.5 million guns in a population of 81 million. Also only 1.4 million people have guns contrasted against apparently nearly 50% of the population in the USA. Also Germany's gun laws are very restrictive, so these are not predominately AR-15s that are necessary to fight in war environment, but rather useless handguns and almost useless sporting rifles.

I think you will find similarly is true of France, but better than Germany.

The number of guns in USA by some estimates exceeds 400 million. And USA Patriots have been stocking up on AR-15s and hollow point ammunition. They are even 3D printing/milling their own fully automatic lower part of the gun in some cases since you can construct such a gun legally I think.

I don't think core Europeans are into community militias (perhaps in eastern Ukraine) and preparing for a war against the government or an outsider Communist/Muslim invader. Americans actually prepare for that. There were some who were prepared if the "Japs" wanted to invade.

It seems to that Europeans instead want a political "solution". And combining their lofty socialist idealism with the desire for economically intractable/insoluble political "solution" is the usual recipe for "revolution gone amok", e.g. post-Wiemar Germany.

I hope I am wrong and Europeans fight to destroy the EU and strive for smaller governments, not bigger, loftier "solutions".

[rpietila]

both are "enough" against an invader who is not welcome

Contrary to Wikipedia's claim of 30 guns per 100 people in Germany, the national registry only counts 5.5 million guns in a population of 81 million. Also only 1.4 million people have guns contrasted against apparently nearly 50% of the population in the USA. Also Germany's gun laws are very restrictive, so these are not predominately AR-15s that are necessary to fight in war environment, but rather useless handguns and almost useless sporting rifles.

I think you will find similarly is true of France, but better than Germany.

The number of guns in USA by some estimates exceeds 400 million. And USA Patriots have been stocking up on AR-15s and hollow point ammunition. They are even 3D printing/milling their own fully automatic lower part of the gun in some cases since you can construct such a gun legally I think.

My quoted part shows the essential. In the Warsaw ghetto there was a real shortage of weapons and ammunition, yet it was spent wisely. It is irrelevant if the number of rifles (and yes, hunting rifles work as sniper rifles) is 1, 10 or 100 million. It is anyway asymmetric warfare when civilian guns play any role.

If the number is only a few thousand, the armed resistance is more difficult. But you can manufacture more if needed. And unarmed resistance is also very potent.

I don't think core Europeans are into community militias (perhaps in eastern Ukraine) and preparing for a war against the government or an outsider Communist/Muslim invader. Americans actually prepare for that. There were some who were prepared if the "Japs" wanted to invade.

Eastern Ukraine was completely ordinary guys until their "own" Kiev government (the puppets installed nominally by US, actually by banksters in a coup) started persecuting and killing them. Now they are holding very well against the aggression. I have no belief they are intrinsically more heroic than the rest of Europeans. Also Serbians were just ordinary guys before the NATO felt it was needed to destroy their cities in the heart of Europe!

You are writing sweeping generalizations which have no basis in anything except your ignorance! In Europe, my friends easily know more about military strategy and history than I, let alone you, do - despite being not the least militarist themselves. Any European country if isolated, can hold equally well as Serbia or Republic of Donbass. My prior claim that Europe as a whole can fend off NATO invasion is not that difficult to believe when you realize that each attempt against the smallest of the countries isolated, has failed.

I am not quitting the forum but this thread is done for a while.

[TPTB_need_war]

rpietila,

I read that East Ukraine was being funded, trained, supported, and infiltrated by Russian paramilitaries.

Hitler sliced through many nations of Europe with ease.

I am writing about the will, means, and philosophy to turn away from socialism and toward individualism. Europe is not doing that. How can you accuse me of generalizations when I write factually.

Europeans are not fighting for gun rights for example. They don't mind the overly restrictive gun laws. Some Americans are fighting every day about this. Instead they are fighting over political organization of socialism, such as fairness, taxing the rich or not, and austerity.

You even said yourself that Europe is more socialist. The part we disagreed about is you think Europe has equivalent numbers of individualist-minded people as the USA and ask you to please prove that to me, because I haven't seen it yet.

Even Eastern Ukraine was not an individualist result. Eastern Ukrainians are fighting over whether they join Kiev or Russia. They are not fighting for their sovereignty. All the Europeans want to join some bigger political system to gain what they perceive to be advantages that come from larger collectives.

[TPTB_need_war]

As to weapons, we're also aware that a means of paying for them is the hard part and the problem of finding someone to buy them from sorts its self out...

Americans have already stockpiled and you are theorizing about what you could do later. Exactly how I described the difference in the two cultures up thread. Yet rpietila gets his nose bent out-of-joint wjen I summarize the reality I have observed.

Why quit searching for the truth. Although your statement is true about some individuals perhaps, it is largely fiction (about dedication to collectivism being on equal footing to individualism and unprogrammed Americans) and also it misses the point of my post which was about the collective fate. That is not to argue that most Americans are unprogrammed (and perhaps roughly at least 50% of them subscribing to collectivism), but we do have some true individualists amongst us.

I meant collectively. Europeans are collectivists and thus are more enslaved. We don't have slides shaped like penises for our 5 years to slide down at the parks. We don't have skirt days for boys. We don't even have fully implemented socialized medicine (ObamaCare) yet and many people fighting against it. We have our guns. Europe is fucked. Get over it. That such "unprogrammed" Europeans aren't willing to sacrifice their life over not having the Constitutional right to bear arms, exemplifies a fundamental distinction.

...

From his observations in meeting with similarly ranked NATO military officers, my former Air Force Lt. Colonel best friend once basically said to me something like Europeans do consultations and Americans roll up their sleeves and "Just Do It" (Nike slogan). Americans are thus perceived to be much more crude, haphazard (unorganized), unsophisticated and uncultured. We don't really worry about the implications of not consulting and not organizing. We just get something done. Sort of the low-hanging fruit approach. If you have enough independent actors attempting solutions, then eventually one of them is the solution. Whereas, consultation is either gridlock or the lowest common denominator result.

For example, you can see this occur now in the USA, where the people suddenly don't care who they elect as long as they elect someone who is not the political class. They just get something done and don't really care about the implications of anything except the low hanging fruit of "get 'er done, elect anyone but the politically correct". It is a vote for what is not wanted (logical nor or joint denial), not a vote for the common denominator of what is wanted (logical conjunction).

...

Meanwhile in Europe we have more political consultations. Ya' know you have to consider everything and do what is best for all and all for one.

This explains why Martin Armstrong's models predict the USA breaking up in regions. For Europe I expect them to collectively go down the tubes together, one for all and all for one.

[klee]

rpietila,

I read that East Ukraine was being funded, trained, supported, and infiltrated by Russian paramilitaries.

Hitler sliced through many nations of Europe with ease.

I am writing about the will, means, and philosophy to turn away from socialism and toward individualism. Europe is not doing that. How can you accuse me of generalizations when I write factually.

Europeans are not fighting for gun rights for example. They don't mind the overly restrictive gun laws. Some Americans are fighting every day about this. Instead they are fighting over political organization of socialism, such as fairness, taxing the rich or not, and austerity.

You even said yourself that Europe is more socialist. The part we disagreed about is you think Europe has equivalent numbers of individualist-minded people as the USA and ask you to please prove that to me, because I haven't seen it yet.

Even Eastern Ukraine was not an individualist result. Eastern Ukrainians are fighting over whether they join Kiev or Russia. They are not fighting for their sovereignty. All the Europeans want to join some bigger political system to gain what they perceive to be advantages that come from larger collectives.

Maybe because they are burned, sick and tired of ALL these centuries of conflict, war, blood, GUNS, discord etc?

Mind that Europe (especially Balkans) and Middle East are the places with the biggest historical depth and most bloody ethnic/politistical/religious conflicts (China was far more homogenous).

Also, when you say Europe you have to understand that there are many Europes - like Balkans and Mediterranean countries, former Easter block, Teutonic, etc etc

Finally don't be naive that Europeans don't have guns - they have maybe more than US citizens in certain places. Do you really think that in Balkans not 1 out of 2 people don't have AT LEAST one shot gun?

Kalashnikov's are abundant too I can assure you.

Europeans don't need to 'fight' like naive Americans for laws regarding guns - they either have in secrecy or not. Try a trip to Crete and you will be convinced. It is almost an independent state.

You are a google search polymath (like in medicine/biology & probably maths, cryptography, programming etc). Same applies for your knowledge in Europe.

 

[klee]

Long story short, in European lands people are ALWAYS in war - in US after civil war there is no blood in the land.

Go figure who has more Kampfbereit attitude..

[klee]

And before you post some more BS make a google search (that you love) to find when Greece was last at war.

Also, when we had the last victims from hostile Turkish action even if in 'peace' time...

[rpietila]

I read that East Ukraine was being funded, trained, supported, and infiltrated by Russian paramilitaries.

I heard that they say so in jewmedia  

Sorry, we can have intelligent conversations in subjects where both have experience level somewhat in the ballpark.

As for mine, regarding the Ukrainian conflict:
- I funded the main Finnish independent news outlet for a whole year since the start of the conflict, during which time the reporters visited both Kiev/Maidan and Donbass many times and I was offered firsthand info (which I turned down because I could not utilize it anyway, just wanted the info to be available for all as a counterweight to the jewmedia that controls every single national outlet in Finland).
- I have also had personal dinner with cigars with the owner of a manor in Estonia in his place, which was even decorated with NATO symbols, this person was instrumental in the independence of Estonia from Soviet Union and the NATO influence here 25 years ago (Estonia was couped to NATO in the same way that was attempted in Ukraine, with the difference that Russia could not fight back in 1991). Since then he has served as NATO intelligence chief in known conflict areas, Estonian parliament and many other places I am not inclined to find out.
- I know current and former MP's and cabinet members and Euro-MP's, in many countries, some personally. (Not to mention CEOs of public companies etc. etc.)
- These provide interesting insight which can be amended to the knowledge received from google search (which completely feeds you what they think is best).

So please, I don't find it funny that you are trolling with this any longer: I am not even asking if you have any of the credentials above because your writing so glaringly reveals the answer.

All I want, as a result of finding out all this, is to have the wisdom that enables me to design a better system: see Crypto Kingdom for my latest attempt.

[TPTB_need_war]

klee the attitude of gun rights advocates in the USA is that the correct way to prevent conflict is to arm the citizenry because it is very difficult to attack a land with a AR-15 under every blade of grass. It was the unarmed citizenry that allowed the Yugoslavian massacres for example. Afair, once the USA military threatened to bomb the shit out the Serbs, they finally came to the negotiating table.

I think I read recently about there is still some small portion that is effectively controlled by Turkey because Turkey installed its settlers there during a prior occupation.

I agree that the USA's relative isolation in terms of only a blue Navy can really threaten it and then adversaries have no way to project enough power for a land invasion against a gun under every blade of grass, means the USA has a favorable circumstances under which Americans can feel guns are more for protection against their own government than from a foreign power.

It is funny to observe that you are so perceptibly angry yet all you wrote agrees with what I wrote. Indeed the Europeans strive for a political and socialist harmony for numerous historical reasons apparently. I never stated the reasons don't exist, rather I just stated what I observed to be the case, which you have not refuted.

How many times have I stated that Americans just want to be left to their own devices. Whereas, Europeans see a need for a collective solution (organized consultations instead of individual disorganized action). In fact in past posts (long ago) I have mentioned geography as as a strong reason for differences between Europe and the USA.

My purpose has been to analyze where I would invest and where I would choose to relocate too. And the conclusion I came to is any where but Europe, because they are caught between intractable socialism economics (a bribe to try to hold the peace, e.g. Turkey's entrance into the EU supported by Greece), insoluble demographics (feminism and humanism to the max), or ethnic/religious war.

My suggestion has been to get the hell out of Europe if you can. I don't see how it can get better. Do you?

[TPTB_need_war]

I read that East Ukraine was being funded, trained, supported, and infiltrated by Russian paramilitaries.

I heard that they say so in jewmedia  

Sorry, we can have intelligent conversations in subjects where both have experience level somewhat in the ballpark.

...

I base my findings off of photos of Russian paramilitaries in Eastern Ukraine that Armstrong's on-the-ground sources provided.

Why must you continue to be so condescending?

I am digging for the Armstrong blog posts. Adding them here as I find them:

http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/20450




http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/19030

[rpietila]

I funded the main Finnish independent news outlet for a whole year since the start of the conflict, during which time the reporters visited both Kiev/Maidan and Donbass many times and I was offered firsthand info (which I turned down because I could not utilize it anyway, just wanted the info to be available for all as a counterweight to the jewmedia that controls every single national outlet in Finland).

I base my findings off of photos of Russian paramilitaries in Eastern Ukraine that Armstrong's on-the-ground sources provided.

Why must you continue to be so condescending?

Because other people are reading this thread and they can learn from productive and detrimental ways of doing things.

[TPTB_need_war]

I funded the main Finnish independent news outlet for a whole year since the start of the conflict, during which time the reporters visited both Kiev/Maidan and Donbass many times and I was offered firsthand info (which I turned down because I could not utilize it anyway, just wanted the info to be available for all as a counterweight to the jewmedia that controls every single national outlet in Finland).

I base my findings off of photos of Russian paramilitaries in Eastern Ukraine that Armstrong's on-the-ground sources provided.

Where are your photos?

People milking newbie naive millionaires is quite common.

What I believe is that Russia and US/NATO are using Ukraine as a proxy war and the people are caught in the middle and powerless to stop it.

Also when you appeal to authority that is less convincing to me than logic that makes sense holistically and on the ground experience. To blame it all on US/NATO shows a colorful authority had influence on you.

[TPTB_need_war]

Well stan, I hope the Knowledge Age will represent another path for Europeans in that transformation than the clusterfuck that appears to be foisted on it now with a proxy way and the EU and religion/ethnic issues sandwiching Europe in.

But Europeans made that choice to swallow socialism whole. Maybe they had no other better choices for sustaining peace. Or maybe "you are just making excuses". I don't know which.

I wish for my friends there to be safe and prosperous. I am just trying to analyze reality, and not the fiction of our various shades of rose colored glasses. Please do feel free to point out to me the wonderful opportunities in Europe over the next 20 years? I don't want to be ignorant.