8th Alt coin thread. Or what to do now that asics are all over the place.

[philipma1957]

Not sure if this is the right board to ask, but anybody knows how exactly Bitmain's order works when you pay 50% for pre-order?

1. Are you being locked in into half btc (or other crypto) now, half later or it is being adjusted based on btc price later on (this would be more fair, of course, but probably too much to expect)?
2. Do you pay second installment into the same btc/bch/ltc address or they would give you another address?

Great questions  I don't know the answers to them and chose to not place an order for that item for those reasons.

[1714495517]

1714495517

[1714495517]

1714495517

[hawkfish007]

Not sure if this is the right board to ask, but anybody knows how exactly Bitmain's order works when you pay 50% for pre-order?

1. Are you being locked in into half btc (or other crypto) now, half later or it is being adjusted based on btc price later on (this would be more fair, of course, but probably too much to expect)?
2. Do you pay second installment into the same btc/bch/ltc address or they would give you another address?

Great questions  I don't know the answers to them and chose to not place an order for that item for those reasons.

1. You are locked into the rate at the time order was placed. When you place an order, it shows the minimum amount needed to be paid. Order stays in pending status after min payment is made until full amount is paid.
2. Same address.

[Biodom]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

[QuintLeo]

L3+ from bitmain down to $289.

I’ve read a lot of speculation they have a more powerful scrypt miner to hit the shelves next.

they may  I think the l3 is a 28nm  too maybe they can boost a 16 or 10nm  to do 900mh at 700 or 800 watts

1500 at somewhere between 1000 and 1300 watts, on a 14/16 nm node process (possibly that "12nm" that's really an upgraded 16nm process).

900 wouldn't be worth it for them with the Innosilicon stuff around.

[philipma1957]

L3+ from bitmain down to $289.

I’ve read a lot of speculation they have a more powerful scrypt miner to hit the shelves next.

they may  I think the l3 is a 28nm  too maybe they can boost a 16 or 10nm  to do 900mh at 700 or 800 watts

1500 at somewhere between 1000 and 1300 watts, on a 14/16 nm node process (possibly that "12nm" that's really an upgraded 16nm process).

900 wouldn't be worth it for them with the Innosilicon stuff around.

well 500 at 725 is about the best it can do with 28nm

if moving to 10 or 12 or 14 or 16nm  

is  as good as the s9 jump it would do

1250 at 725/800   that is a 2.5 factor   which is the s7 to s9 jump

no one touches that efficiency

innosilicon  does   1230 at 1500  that is 1.219 watts a mh
bitmain      does     500 at 725    that is 1.45 watts  a mh

if they put an L5  out at 0.725 watts an mh it would be a big jump.

bitmain  became huge with the S9   from s7 jump

14000 at 1400
4700  at 1300

they have not really done much since that huge jump

right now innosilicon beats them with every single piece of gear in terms of efficiency

[VyprBTC]

Sometimes you get complacent when you become the big dog. No longer hungry. No longer innovating. Bitmain is raking in so much they just stopped innovating. With things the way they are, they might ease out of their slumber and try to cobble something together. Who knows.

[philipma1957]

Sometimes you get complacent when you become the big dog. No longer hungry. No longer innovating. Bitmain is raking in so much they just stopped innovating. With things the way they are, they might ease out of their slumber and try to cobble something together. Who knows.

And innosilicon now has an ETH miner asic far better then bitmain in terms of watts per hash

[nsummy]

Sometimes you get complacent when you become the big dog. No longer hungry. No longer innovating. Bitmain is raking in so much they just stopped innovating. With things the way they are, they might ease out of their slumber and try to cobble something together. Who knows.

IMO they are just focusing on diversifying their business portfolio.  They are opening offices in San Francisco and Sao paulo, and have been actively investing in other businesses, not to mention their AI chips.  In 2019 they will be traded on the Hong Kong stock exchange.  They have made a lot of money on mining equipment but that is just peanuts compared to other ventures.  Its kind of like Nvidia, we can complain about no new GPUs, but their main income is coming from AI and HPC. not geforce graphics cards. 

And lets just say Bitmain could magically double the efficiency of their S9, which would be huge, it would still only be making a $1 a day.  With current prices I don't think asic miners are flying off the shelves.

[philipma1957]

Sometimes you get complacent when you become the big dog. No longer hungry. No longer innovating. Bitmain is raking in so much they just stopped innovating. With things the way they are, they might ease out of their slumber and try to cobble something together. Who knows.

IMO they are just focusing on diversifying their business portfolio.  They are opening offices in San Francisco and Sao paulo, and have been actively investing in other businesses, not to mention their AI chips.  In 2019 they will be traded on the Hong Kong stock exchange.  They have made a lot of money on mining equipment but that is just peanuts compared to other ventures.  Its kind of like Nvidia, we can complain about no new GPUs, but their main income is coming from AI and HPC. not geforce graphics cards.  

And lets just say Bitmain could magically double the efficiency of their S9, which would be huge, it would still only be making a $1 a day.  With current prices I don't think asic miners are flying off the shelves.

28th  at 1400 watts makes 10 a day with free power

28th at 1400 watts makes   6.64  a day with 10 cent power

You are correct in that they are drifting from mining  look at this:

Innosilicon  now beats bitmain for efficiency with every product they have.

Why hasn't bitmain built more efficient gear for sale?

Btc

T2  is 1430/17200 =   83 watts per 1 th  or +10% = 91 watts a th
S9 is  1400/14000 =  100 watts 1th  or -2%  =  98 watts a th









Zec  

A9  is 620/ 50000 =  12.4 watts 1000 sols
Z9  is 266/ 10000 =  26.6 watts 1000 sols


LTC

A6   1500/1230 =      121 watts 100 mh
L3+  800/505    =     160 watts 100 mh


Cryptonight

A8   480 watts /248 =  193 watts  100kh  
x3    550 watts/220 =   250 watts 100kh    

DASH

A5 750 watts/32500  =  23.07 watts   1gh
D3 970 watts/17000  =  57.05 watts   1gh

 Sia

S11 1380 watts/4300gh   = 320.9 watts 1000gh
A3   1275 watts/815gh     = 1564 watts 1000gh



I am not sure about a bitmain  decred miner

and Innosilicon does not have an Eth miner  or a B3 miner


but bitmain  is a clear cut loser in efficiency to everything  you can buy listed above.

This is not about service of the gear
This is not about price of the gear
This is not gear working or being durable

This is about  efficiency  and bitmain  either sucks at that (I don't think so)

Or bitmain  has  better gear they don't release

or something else

At moderators.

I only listed  the entire list of gear byc and alt because the pattern is very clear  and that is the way to show it.

So will bitmain  put a better miner out or continue the price war with the s-9?

I can believe that bitmain  loses  in every model  listed above  so whats up here?

Update  innosilicon   releases a far superior eth machine

so they beat bitmain  in efficiency yet again!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4722666.0


innosilicon

A10  

 850 watts 485mh  = 1.75 watts a mh
740  watts 432mh  = 1.71 watts a mh
650  watts 365mh = 1.78 watts a mh


bitmain
E3

800 watts  180 mh = 4.444 watts a mh

[citronick]

https://www.ccn.com/crypto-mining-decline-expected-to-slash-gpu-prices/

The recent decline in cryptocurrency mining has eroded demand for graphics cards, with card suppliers planning to slash prices to clean out their inventories.
The softening market has snagged demand for ASIC mining equipment, supply chain sources have indicated. Graphics card prices are expected to fall about 20% this month, suppliers noted,  according to Digitimes.

Manufacturers Feel The Heat
Large mining companies have reduced mining equipment orders while many small and medium-sized mining companies are leaving the market altogether. The global market for graphics cards is currently estimated at several million units.

The falling demand is expected to hurt sales for the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) and for IC design service companies like Global Unichip.

Nividia, meanwhile, has approximately 1 million GPUs available, sources confirmed. Next-generation GPUs from Nividia that use TSMC’s 7nm and 12 nm processes will be put on hold until inventory levels improve, pushing processes to the late fourth quarter

Miners are expected to sell their used graphics cards, forcing retailers to slash prices in order to remain competitive.


A Reversal Of Fortunes
The trend has switched significantly since the last couple of months when share prices for AMD and Nividia reportedly gained. AMD’s share prices jumped by 30% in May, while in late June, 13 company analysts had buy ratings for AMD, 12 had hold ratings and six had sell ratings, according to MarketWatch. The companies’ rising fortunes was attributed in part to demand from cryptocurrency miners.

Last year’s surge in crypto mining resulted in a GPU shortage, as crypto miners purchased 3 million GPUs in 2017, translating into about $776 million.

AMD, a computer processor producer, sold out of its new graphics card within five minutes of its release in online marketplaces last year. Demand from Ethereum miners also caused Radeon RX 580 and RX 570 GPUs to sell out.

[Marvell2]

https://www.ccn.com/crypto-mining-decline-expected-to-slash-gpu-prices/

The recent decline in cryptocurrency mining has eroded demand for graphics cards, with card suppliers planning to slash prices to clean out their inventories.
The softening market has snagged demand for ASIC mining equipment, supply chain sources have indicated. Graphics card prices are expected to fall about 20% this month, suppliers noted,  according to Digitimes.

Manufacturers Feel The Heat
Large mining companies have reduced mining equipment orders while many small and medium-sized mining companies are leaving the market altogether. The global market for graphics cards is currently estimated at several million units.

The falling demand is expected to hurt sales for the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) and for IC design service companies like Global Unichip.

Nividia, meanwhile, has approximately 1 million GPUs available, sources confirmed. Next-generation GPUs from Nividia that use TSMC’s 7nm and 12 nm processes will be put on hold until inventory levels improve, pushing processes to the late fourth quarter

Miners are expected to sell their used graphics cards, forcing retailers to slash prices in order to remain competitive.


A Reversal Of Fortunes
The trend has switched significantly since the last couple of months when share prices for AMD and Nividia reportedly gained. AMD’s share prices jumped by 30% in May, while in late June, 13 company analysts had buy ratings for AMD, 12 had hold ratings and six had sell ratings, according to MarketWatch. The companies’ rising fortunes was attributed in part to demand from cryptocurrency miners.

Last year’s surge in crypto mining resulted in a GPU shortage, as crypto miners purchased 3 million GPUs in 2017, translating into about $776 million.

AMD, a computer processor producer, sold out of its new graphics card within five minutes of its release in online marketplaces last year. Demand from Ethereum miners also caused Radeon RX 580 and RX 570 GPUs to sell out.

Asics did this , they eroded large amounts of the mining profitability but basically removing Zcash, Lyra and , blakeb2, mrgro , qubit and more algorithms I can care to name from GPUs mining ability profit wise.

I can't see Nvidia having 1 million of the current 3 year old generation 10x cards though.  Why would they keep pamping out models when they have a next gen right around the coerner.

Something seems off in this story

[JaredKaragen]

My small take:

I think what is really biting TSMC is the fact that nvidia screwed up and thought they could milk the 10 series for more than they could imagine;    instead of holding to their usual product release strategy they attempted to milk it....  Th process on the dies was already down.   Its usually cheaper for a second batch of chips.  So;  why did the price keep going up?    That's right.... "artificial inflation" due to "demand".

it all backfired.  and they are hurting TSMC by pushing back and trying to recoup on their stupid mistake;  instead of chalking it as a loss and moving forward.

If they had taken that mistake, and:
1) released a 1080ti with less ram
or
2) sold the overstocked chips at a cut-rate price to sell and drain inventory for the next round

TSMC would have not had such a huge problem. (this aside from the fact that they must plan for the eventuality of these problems in their business model)



In the end;


All of it.... is people fighting to have the biggest slice of the pie.   Some people gotta lose.... and when you risk it big, you can loose it big.

us peons;  just get to ride the waves.

[philipma1957]

My small take:

I think what is really biting TSMC is the fact that nvidia screwed up and thought they could milk the 10 series for more than they could imagine;    instead of holding to their usual product release strategy they attempted to milk it....  Th process on the dies was already down.   Its usually cheaper for a second batch of chips.  So;  why did the price keep going up?    That's right.... "artificial inflation" due to "demand".

it all backfired.  and they are hurting TSMC by pushing back and trying to recoup on their stupid mistake;  instead of chalking it as a loss and moving forward.

If they had taken that mistake, and:
1) released a 1080ti with less ram
or
2) sold the overstocked chips at a cut-rate price to sell and drain inventory for the next round

TSMC would have not had such a huge problem. (this aside from the fact that they must plan for the eventuality of these problems in their business model)



In the end;


All of it.... is people fighting to have the biggest slice of the pie.   Some people gotta lose.... and when you risk it big, you can loose it big.

us peons;  just get to ride the waves.

Pretty much spot on.  I miss October November December of 2017 and Jan of 2018

I made  more coin in those 4 months then the previous 24 months.

Asic companies went after gpus. = stupid
Nvidia pushed a lot of non gaming cards = stupid

And they pretty much hurt the game big time.

The game only works well when gpus do well.  Simple reason is the gear adaption is widespread.

Gamers do mine as a rebate on gear.  So if gpus can turn a profit many people have interest .

Kill it off system crashes.

Same thing happened in 2014 ltc was smacking hot.  Asics were built and both btc and ltc crashed.

For now I am bored. The solar end is bogged down in red tape and delays. So I can’t use lots of excess gear.l have six idle s9s and 9 idle l3+

So slow it is boring as heck.

Getting a new bathroom remodel paying a guy hope it works out.



But would anyone think bitmain would have less efficient gear the innosilicon in every category?

[Elder III]

Anyone make a Bitmain dartboard to hang on their wall yet?  I'm pretty sure most of us could vent some frustration throwing darts/sticks/stones/old_hardware at it once in awhile. :/

[philipma1957]

Anyone make a Bitmain dartboard to hang on their wall yet?  I'm pretty sure most of us could vent some frustration throwing darts/sticks/stones/old_hardware at it once in awhile. :/

well  maybe it should be an innosilicon dartboard

[Biodom]

inno maybe have better chips/design, but bitmain beats them on price.
Miners are very price sensitive and inno needs better marketing (no f-g $10K items, OK?).
Personally, I see much struggle for anyone to sell btc miners from now on (unless btc price goes up to 20-50K).
Even with twice as potent chip per J, twofold increase in difficulty over 6 mo will finish it for $0.1/kwh folks.

[KaydenC]

Miners are very price sensitive and inno needs better marketing (no f-g $10K items, OK?).

This. They needed to have an A9 mini that's 1/5 the hash for 1/5 the price.
Bitmain was smart to do the Z9 mini for 2k at launch, rather than a big Z9 for 8k.

It means a lot psychologically, I was on the trigger for batch 1 A9, but was worried the A9 will break and skipped it.

[philipma1957]

Today inno puts out a new beast  the best  btc miner ever


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4729254.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4729254.msg42740338#msg42740338

18.1 th at 1360 watts at the wall  0.075 this number is very good
20.5 th at 1681 watts at the wall  0.082
22.1 th at 1946 watts at the wall  0.088
25.2 th at 2180 watts at the wall  0.086


When I run a T1  at slow speed it does 14.1th at 1297 watts

about 0.092  and it is not crazy loud

I can think  that you may get 18th at 1400 = 0.077 and not be that loud.

the question is what will be your service from them when they break.

I also think this will force more pools to do asic boost

assuming they use asic boost.

as 0.075- 0.077  is really good.

the chinese have kicked japans ass

this will hit market ahead of japans  gmo.

and this will do more efficient 0.075 vs 0.082

japan better look at some tweaking to the software

I placed an order for 1  it is 17.531 ltc    all shipping and psu

that is a locked in price  I have 2 hours to pay.

So  I am hoping  for a sharp LTC price drop

say from 83 usd to 70 usd

I will then get it.

[Elder III]

We have never owned an asic, but it seems to be worth considering at that price point.  I'd kind of like to buy one and just sit on the BTC it generates for the next decade.  Decisions... decisions...

[philipma1957]

Today inno puts out a new beast  the best  btc miner ever


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4729254.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4729254.msg42740338#msg42740338

18.1 th at 1360 watts at the wall  0.075 this number is very good
20.5 th at 1681 watts at the wall  0.082
22.1 th at 1946 watts at the wall  0.088
25.2 th at 2180 watts at the wall  0.086


When I run a T1  at slow speed it does 14.1th at 1297 watts

about 0.092  and it is not crazy loud

I can think  that you may get 18th at 1400 = 0.077 and not be that loud.

the question is what will be your service from them when they break.

I also think this will force more pools to do asic boost

assuming they use asic boost.

as 0.075- 0.077  is really good.

the chinese have kicked japans ass

this will hit market ahead of japans  gmo.

and this will do more efficient 0.075 vs 0.082

japan better look at some tweaking to the software

I placed an order for 1  it is 17.531 ltc    all shipping and psu

that is a locked in price  I have 2 hours to pay.

So  I am hoping  for a sharp LTC price drop

say from 83 usd to 70 usd

I will then get it.

that is not the correct T2  it is the plain T2


 the T2 turbo is not released

I fortunately caught the error by looking at the thread an biota pointed out it was the older T2 not the new T2 Turbo.

The T2 Turbo   could be worth using.  When it releases.