[ANN][SCRYPT] KlondikeCoin ★ Cryptsy.com ★ Prepaid VISA Cards ★ 0% Premine [KDC]

[BitcoinStacker]

i dont understand why cryptsy didnt add KDC till now?

[G440T]

i dont understand why cryptsy didnt add KDC till now?

They still haven't...

[Klondikesupporter]

It doesn't really matter how many coins per day or what percentage there is... it really only matters what you can do with them.  Mining 1 coin worth 1,000,000 satoshis or 1,000,000 coins worth 1 satoshi, it really doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  And that's what matters - as far as Klondike goes it still is one of the MOST profitable coins out there and has been since it has been introduced - consistently in the top ten in daily profitability for mining per megahash.

No, you are not right.

It is only profitable if you are mining!
A lot of the trades are done by people who are NOT MINING. They see a lot of value evaporate through inflation.

That's what's really the matter with most of the PoW coins: people only care about profitability of mining, but they tend to forget that they are very likely selling to people who do not mine!

Why do you think the amount of oil pumped up is being controlled and regulated by the cmpanies? That's to prevent that the prices will drop.
There has to be a balance in profitability for miners and for buyers (look at them as investors who also want to make a profit).

If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?

To date, KlondkideCoin has been one of the most ideal coins out there.  The only thing it's seriously lacking is community support in terms of vendors and sponsors.  I'll say it until I'm blue in the face y'all:  The dev ain't responsible for making that happen.  YOU ARE.

For those who are just reading these last posts, be weary of taking heed of Kheg's advice. All this guy talks about is mining and given the nature of this message (and the messages starting from a bit back on this topic of halving) he seems to be a huge dumper, and in it for the short run.

A couple little points; He keeps stating the obvious , that having places to use the coin is going to increase the value (trying to make us feel guilty as if it's our responsibility to control the price of the coin). The reality is that mining 100,000+ coins per day out of ONLY 20 MILLION is ludicrous, as we can open JUST AS MANY AVENUES to spend the coin REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY COINS ARE MINED.

A coin with 100 places to spend it and 5 million/20 million mined theoretically will be 4x the value of a coin with 20 million mined with 100 places to spend it, no?

I'm probably wrong, although this is just a warning to take posts with a grain of salt because we never know if for example this guy is just striving to keep his mining op nice and profitable at the expense of our wallets.

Thank god someone posted while writing this because upon scrolling up I missed the main point:

"Kheg: If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?"

ACTUALLY, the coin is only one month old, and "coin investors" <----(notice how he says "coin investors", sounds like what a miner would say, further indicating that he is a miner in it for a quick profit) will have generally lost as just 2-3 weeks ago the price actually surpassed 40,000 satoshi with stable trading at well over 20,000 for a while. We are therefore talking about a 5x decrease in price in 3 weeks, where these "30-40% gains over the past couple months" are coming from is beyond me...

[Mayhem007]

It doesn't really matter how many coins per day or what percentage there is... it really only matters what you can do with them.  Mining 1 coin worth 1,000,000 satoshis or 1,000,000 coins worth 1 satoshi, it really doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  And that's what matters - as far as Klondike goes it still is one of the MOST profitable coins out there and has been since it has been introduced - consistently in the top ten in daily profitability for mining per megahash.

No, you are not right.

It is only profitable if you are mining!
A lot of the trades are done by people who are NOT MINING. They see a lot of value evaporate through inflation.

That's what's really the matter with most of the PoW coins: people only care about profitability of mining, but they tend to forget that they are very likely selling to people who do not mine!

Why do you think the amount of oil pumped up is being controlled and regulated by the cmpanies? That's to prevent that the prices will drop.
There has to be a balance in profitability for miners and for buyers (look at them as investors who also want to make a profit).

If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?

To date, KlondkideCoin has been one of the most ideal coins out there.  The only thing it's seriously lacking is community support in terms of vendors and sponsors.  I'll say it until I'm blue in the face y'all:  The dev ain't responsible for making that happen.  YOU ARE.

For those who are just reading these last posts, be weary of taking heed of Kheg's advice. All this guy talks about is mining and given the nature of this message (and the messages starting from a bit back on this topic of halving) he seems to be a huge dumper, and in it for the short run.

A couple little points; He keeps stating the obvious , that having places to use the coin is going to increase the value (trying to make us feel guilty as if it's our responsibility to control the price of the coin). The reality is that mining 100,000+ coins per day out of ONLY 20 MILLION is ludicrous, as we can open JUST AS MANY AVENUES to spend the coin REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY COINS ARE MINED.

A coin with 100 places to spend it and 5 million/20 million mined theoretically will be 4x the value of a coin with 20 million mined with 100 places to spend it, no?

I'm probably wrong, although this is just a warning to take posts with a grain of salt because we never know if for example this guy is just striving to keep his mining op nice and profitable at the expense of our wallets.

Thank god someone posted while writing this because upon scrolling up I missed the main point:

"Kheg: If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?"

ACTUALLY, the coin is only one month old, and "coin investors" <----(notice how he says this as if the "others" are coin investors, further indicating that he is a miner in it for a quick profit) will have generally lost as just 2-3 weeks ago the price actually surpassed 40,000 satoshi with stable trading at well over 20,000 for a while. We are therefore talking about a 5x decrease in price in 3 weeks, where these "30-40% gains over the past couple months" are coming from is beyond me...

Your constant screaming is annoying.  Go get a calculator and do some basic math.  If you like it so much, put a buy wall for 10 btc. 

By next weekend there will be approx another newly mined 800,000 KDC coins.  Look at the buy volume, there is none?  Who is going to buy all those new coins?  This coin will be down to 2,000-3,000 by next weekend I'm sure. No amount of screaming or yelling will stop this train.

[Klondikesupporter]

It doesn't really matter how many coins per day or what percentage there is... it really only matters what you can do with them.  Mining 1 coin worth 1,000,000 satoshis or 1,000,000 coins worth 1 satoshi, it really doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  And that's what matters - as far as Klondike goes it still is one of the MOST profitable coins out there and has been since it has been introduced - consistently in the top ten in daily profitability for mining per megahash.

No, you are not right.

It is only profitable if you are mining!
A lot of the trades are done by people who are NOT MINING. They see a lot of value evaporate through inflation.

That's what's really the matter with most of the PoW coins: people only care about profitability of mining, but they tend to forget that they are very likely selling to people who do not mine!

Why do you think the amount of oil pumped up is being controlled and regulated by the cmpanies? That's to prevent that the prices will drop.
There has to be a balance in profitability for miners and for buyers (look at them as investors who also want to make a profit).

If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?

To date, KlondkideCoin has been one of the most ideal coins out there.  The only thing it's seriously lacking is community support in terms of vendors and sponsors.  I'll say it until I'm blue in the face y'all:  The dev ain't responsible for making that happen.  YOU ARE.

For those who are just reading these last posts, be weary of taking heed of Kheg's advice. All this guy talks about is mining and given the nature of this message (and the messages starting from a bit back on this topic of halving) he seems to be a huge dumper, and in it for the short run.

A couple little points; He keeps stating the obvious , that having places to use the coin is going to increase the value (trying to make us feel guilty as if it's our responsibility to control the price of the coin). The reality is that mining 100,000+ coins per day out of ONLY 20 MILLION is ludicrous, as we can open JUST AS MANY AVENUES to spend the coin REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY COINS ARE MINED.

A coin with 100 places to spend it and 5 million/20 million mined theoretically will be 4x the value of a coin with 20 million mined with 100 places to spend it, no?

I'm probably wrong, although this is just a warning to take posts with a grain of salt because we never know if for example this guy is just striving to keep his mining op nice and profitable at the expense of our wallets.

Thank god someone posted while writing this because upon scrolling up I missed the main point:

"Kheg: If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?"

ACTUALLY, the coin is only one month old, and "coin investors" <----(notice how he says this as if the "others" are coin investors, further indicating that he is a miner in it for a quick profit) will have generally lost as just 2-3 weeks ago the price actually surpassed 40,000 satoshi with stable trading at well over 20,000 for a while. We are therefore talking about a 5x decrease in price in 3 weeks, where these "30-40% gains over the past couple months" are coming from is beyond me...

Your constant screaming is annoying.  Go get a calculator and do some basic math.  If you like it so much, put a buy wall for 10 btc. 

By next weekend there will be approx another newly mined 800,000 KDC coins.  Look at the buy volume, there is none?  Who is going to buy all those new coins?  This coin will be down to 2,000-3,000 by next weekend I'm sure. No amount of screaming or yelling will stop this train.

Forgive me yeah I don't mean to come across like that - and what you just said is exactly what I am saying.. that anyone in favour of keeping the coin as it is is in this for the short run to make a quick buck. Way too many coins are being mined.

[bentmar]

It doesn't really matter how many coins per day or what percentage there is... it really only matters what you can do with them.  Mining 1 coin worth 1,000,000 satoshis or 1,000,000 coins worth 1 satoshi, it really doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  And that's what matters - as far as Klondike goes it still is one of the MOST profitable coins out there and has been since it has been introduced - consistently in the top ten in daily profitability for mining per megahash.

No, you are not right.

It is only profitable if you are mining!
A lot of the trades are done by people who are NOT MINING. They see a lot of value evaporate through inflation.

That's what's really the matter with most of the PoW coins: people only care about profitability of mining, but they tend to forget that they are very likely selling to people who do not mine!

Why do you think the amount of oil pumped up is being controlled and regulated by the cmpanies? That's to prevent that the prices will drop.
There has to be a balance in profitability for miners and for buyers (look at them as investors who also want to make a profit).

If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?

To date, KlondkideCoin has been one of the most ideal coins out there.  The only thing it's seriously lacking is community support in terms of vendors and sponsors.  I'll say it until I'm blue in the face y'all:  The dev ain't responsible for making that happen.  YOU ARE.

For those who are just reading these last posts, be weary of taking heed of Kheg's advice. All this guy talks about is mining and given the nature of this message (and the messages starting from a bit back on this topic of halving) he seems to be a huge dumper, and in it for the short run.

A couple little points; He keeps stating the obvious , that having places to use the coin is going to increase the value (trying to make us feel guilty as if it's our responsibility to control the price of the coin). The reality is that mining 100,000+ coins per day out of ONLY 20 MILLION is ludicrous, as we can open JUST AS MANY AVENUES to spend the coin REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY COINS ARE MINED.

A coin with 100 places to spend it and 5 million/20 million mined theoretically will be 4x the value of a coin with 20 million mined with 100 places to spend it, no?

I'm probably wrong, although this is just a warning to take posts with a grain of salt because we never know if for example this guy is just striving to keep his mining op nice and profitable at the expense of our wallets.

Thank god someone posted while writing this because upon scrolling up I missed the main point:

"Kheg: If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?"

ACTUALLY, the coin is only one month old, and "coin investors" <----(notice how he says this as if the "others" are coin investors, further indicating that he is a miner in it for a quick profit) will have generally lost as just 2-3 weeks ago the price actually surpassed 40,000 satoshi with stable trading at well over 20,000 for a while. We are therefore talking about a 5x decrease in price in 3 weeks, where these "30-40% gains over the past couple months" are coming from is beyond me...

Your constant screaming is annoying.  Go get a calculator and do some basic math.  If you like it so much, put a buy wall for 10 btc.  

By next weekend there will be approx another newly mined 800,000 KDC coins.  Look at the buy volume, there is none? Who is going to buy all those new coins?  This coin will be down to 2,000-3,000 by next weekend I'm sure. No amount of screaming or yelling will stop this train.

Chill out with the invalid arguments pleeeez..
The FUD you spread must be with some intention.. Or youre just a random bloke that randomly dislikes the idea of kdc rising (wich it will, IM SURE), if thats so you are rare my friend.

[MysticDOGE]

So when is the Dev update?

Today. The day isn't over.

Do you have a dayjob? I recon the dev's have. Just sit tight

[Klondikesupporter]

It doesn't really matter how many coins per day or what percentage there is... it really only matters what you can do with them.  Mining 1 coin worth 1,000,000 satoshis or 1,000,000 coins worth 1 satoshi, it really doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  And that's what matters - as far as Klondike goes it still is one of the MOST profitable coins out there and has been since it has been introduced - consistently in the top ten in daily profitability for mining per megahash.

No, you are not right.

It is only profitable if you are mining!
A lot of the trades are done by people who are NOT MINING. They see a lot of value evaporate through inflation.

That's what's really the matter with most of the PoW coins: people only care about profitability of mining, but they tend to forget that they are very likely selling to people who do not mine!

Why do you think the amount of oil pumped up is being controlled and regulated by the cmpanies? That's to prevent that the prices will drop.
There has to be a balance in profitability for miners and for buyers (look at them as investors who also want to make a profit).

If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?

To date, KlondkideCoin has been one of the most ideal coins out there.  The only thing it's seriously lacking is community support in terms of vendors and sponsors.  I'll say it until I'm blue in the face y'all:  The dev ain't responsible for making that happen.  YOU ARE.

For those who are just reading these last posts, be weary of taking heed of Kheg's advice. All this guy talks about is mining and given the nature of this message (and the messages starting from a bit back on this topic of halving) he seems to be a huge dumper, and in it for the short run.

A couple little points; He keeps stating the obvious , that having places to use the coin is going to increase the value (trying to make us feel guilty as if it's our responsibility to control the price of the coin). The reality is that mining 100,000+ coins per day out of ONLY 20 MILLION is ludicrous, as we can open JUST AS MANY AVENUES to spend the coin REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY COINS ARE MINED.

A coin with 100 places to spend it and 5 million/20 million mined theoretically will be 4x the value of a coin with 20 million mined with 100 places to spend it, no?

I'm probably wrong, although this is just a warning to take posts with a grain of salt because we never know if for example this guy is just striving to keep his mining op nice and profitable at the expense of our wallets.

Thank god someone posted while writing this because upon scrolling up I missed the main point:

"Kheg: If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?"

ACTUALLY, the coin is only one month old, and "coin investors" <----(notice how he says this as if the "others" are coin investors, further indicating that he is a miner in it for a quick profit) will have generally lost as just 2-3 weeks ago the price actually surpassed 40,000 satoshi with stable trading at well over 20,000 for a while. We are therefore talking about a 5x decrease in price in 3 weeks, where these "30-40% gains over the past couple months" are coming from is beyond me...

Your constant screaming is annoying.  Go get a calculator and do some basic math.  If you like it so much, put a buy wall for 10 btc.  

By next weekend there will be approx another newly mined 800,000 KDC coins.  Look at the buy volume, there is none? Who is going to buy all those new coins?  This coin will be down to 2,000-3,000 by next weekend I'm sure. No amount of screaming or yelling will stop this train.

Chill out with the invalid arguments pleeeez..
The FUD you spread must be with some intention.. Or youre just a random bloke that randomly dislikes the idea of kdc rising (wich it will, IM SURE), if thats so you are rare my friend.

He is right though about the fact that less coins must be mined. Significantly less. We need 100 uses for this coin by the time 10 million are mined rather than by the time 20 million are. Better yet get some legit places to use it before we hit 5 million and combined with a significant reward drop we will be in much better shape in the long run.

There is nothing wrong with tinkering with things one time to get it right.

[Mayhem007]

It doesn't really matter how many coins per day or what percentage there is... it really only matters what you can do with them.  Mining 1 coin worth 1,000,000 satoshis or 1,000,000 coins worth 1 satoshi, it really doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  And that's what matters - as far as Klondike goes it still is one of the MOST profitable coins out there and has been since it has been introduced - consistently in the top ten in daily profitability for mining per megahash.

No, you are not right.

It is only profitable if you are mining!
A lot of the trades are done by people who are NOT MINING. They see a lot of value evaporate through inflation.

That's what's really the matter with most of the PoW coins: people only care about profitability of mining, but they tend to forget that they are very likely selling to people who do not mine!

Why do you think the amount of oil pumped up is being controlled and regulated by the cmpanies? That's to prevent that the prices will drop.
There has to be a balance in profitability for miners and for buyers (look at them as investors who also want to make a profit).

If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?

To date, KlondkideCoin has been one of the most ideal coins out there.  The only thing it's seriously lacking is community support in terms of vendors and sponsors.  I'll say it until I'm blue in the face y'all:  The dev ain't responsible for making that happen.  YOU ARE.

For those who are just reading these last posts, be weary of taking heed of Kheg's advice. All this guy talks about is mining and given the nature of this message (and the messages starting from a bit back on this topic of halving) he seems to be a huge dumper, and in it for the short run.

A couple little points; He keeps stating the obvious , that having places to use the coin is going to increase the value (trying to make us feel guilty as if it's our responsibility to control the price of the coin). The reality is that mining 100,000+ coins per day out of ONLY 20 MILLION is ludicrous, as we can open JUST AS MANY AVENUES to spend the coin REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY COINS ARE MINED.

A coin with 100 places to spend it and 5 million/20 million mined theoretically will be 4x the value of a coin with 20 million mined with 100 places to spend it, no?

I'm probably wrong, although this is just a warning to take posts with a grain of salt because we never know if for example this guy is just striving to keep his mining op nice and profitable at the expense of our wallets.

Thank god someone posted while writing this because upon scrolling up I missed the main point:

"Kheg: If you haven't been following along, KlondikeCoin has dipped into the sub-6000 range several times since launch, and rebounded into the 9000 range several times since launch as well.  Tell me exactly how coin investors wouldn't possibly be loving this coin getting multiple 30-40% gains over the course of a couple months as well?"

ACTUALLY, the coin is only one month old, and "coin investors" <----(notice how he says this as if the "others" are coin investors, further indicating that he is a miner in it for a quick profit) will have generally lost as just 2-3 weeks ago the price actually surpassed 40,000 satoshi with stable trading at well over 20,000 for a while. We are therefore talking about a 5x decrease in price in 3 weeks, where these "30-40% gains over the past couple months" are coming from is beyond me...

Your constant screaming is annoying.  Go get a calculator and do some basic math.  If you like it so much, put a buy wall for 10 btc.  

By next weekend there will be approx another newly mined 800,000 KDC coins.  Look at the buy volume, there is none? Who is going to buy all those new coins?  This coin will be down to 2,000-3,000 by next weekend I'm sure. No amount of screaming or yelling will stop this train.

Chill out with the invalid arguments pleeeez..
The FUD you spread must be with some intention.. Or youre just a random bloke that randomly dislikes the idea of kdc rising (wich it will, IM SURE), if thats so you are rare my friend.

Ive been mining and buying KDC since day one and evrday it goes down.  Just pissed is all.  I hope the devs have some good news so there is a price spike and I can sell.  Im sure everyone is waiting for a price spike to sell too.  But look at the sell wall...and 800K more coming by weekend.  ugh frustration

[dizzyflamingo]

Anyone else noticing how people defend their favorite cryptocurrency like many defend their religion? People always have an agenda, remember that...

[ZeroAsANumber]

How do you know the market has gone mad? - BTC is falling and Doge rising. crazy day.

[heartthew]

Anyone else noticing how people defend their favorite cryptocurrency like many defend their religion? People always have an agenda, remember that...

Was just thinking about that as I read.

I dabble in about a dozen coins, mostly focused in Prospercoin now.

*plug*

Had some poorly utilized time with the hacks over at lottocoin, and sold all my week one Doge well too early.

Learned not to be overzealous. (sitting on a lot of devalued RPC right now!)

If you can't consider the idea that a coin you love may have problems, you will soon have problems.

This is a tricky game, alertness and adjustment skills are rewarded.

Hope things work out here, folks.

...definitely gotta do something about production volume, though - it IS pretty obvious.

[Zeraful]

Gotta agree, too many coins being minted too fast.

[mikesbmw]

Anyone else noticing how people defend their favorite cryptocurrency like many defend their religion? People always have an agenda, remember that...

My agenda? Same as anyone else: profit.

The thing is, it is very clear that mining is way to fast for this coin.
Fun to start and get things going, but the difficulty should have been a lot higher by now.

If you want this coin to keep growing you need new buyers, but remember this: almost all (if not all) buyers are in it for the profit and as long as the price keeps falling more than BTC, users will stay away.

Simple as that.

[MysticDOGE]

Breaking News

New KDC MERCHANT ADDED !!!

Who?
- Me!

Website?
- You're looking at it

What product?
- Very inspirational, personal and custom made "feel-good" reply in this topic.
- Hand made by me

Delivery?
- As a reply in this topic

Price?
- only 25 KDC

Payment?
- Sent 25 KDC to my wallet

Code:

LFxLdhzQMSFe5zDqW6q5MMFANEDMU5471x

and reply with the tx code here. You will receive your inspiration text as a reply.

FAQ
Q: Are you for real?
A: No, 100% digital

Q: Why decide to become a merchant?
A: To make you be able to spent your KDC and receive a great inspirational text!

Q: What happens if I sent more or less then 25 KDC?
A: Sent less? Nothing happens. Sent more? Poem will be more extended.

On topic: im here for a profit too, just like anyone else. What could make me different is that im not in it for a quick buck. I don't feel the urge to make millions in 1 week. Thats just utter BS. If you want to make a nice profit, all you need is patience and a sharp eye towards the market.

My advice to all: listen to yourself and don't try to be manipulated by FUD or exeptional positive news.

The two "wisdoms" I always have in mind are:

"Listen to all, Follow NONE"
"Cui Bono?" Cui Bono explained - click

[Klondikesupporter]

The good thing about having a store and other uses for a coin is that it literally secures that there are people who will be consistently utilizing the currency rather than just looking to profit.

[Squeegie]

Anything new from today or are we still debating about the fork? 

[Jilixi]

Voting +1 for a lower block reward, 10-20 coins /block

[brother3]

How do you know the market has gone mad? - BTC is falling and Doge rising. crazy day.

Word!!!

[Squeegie]

How do you know the market has gone mad? - BTC is falling and Doge rising. crazy day.

Word!!!

I find it fucking awsome,it's funny if you see it as a hobby not just as fun if you see it as your payment