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[toknormal]

I don't get it.

Greece borrowed money from others, now they are keen not to pay it back?

It doesn't quite work like that. There are 3 reasons (IMO) why it's outrageous that the Greek people have to carry the can in the form of all this austerity.

[1] - lets say I have a banking license and you don't. You ask me for EU 100,000. I don't have it (in fact I don't have anything of value whatsoever to lend you). However, I can lend you your own future if you'll just sign this form. So you sign the form, I go to my garage and print up EU 100,000 and off you go to work your butt off for the next 25 years of your life to underwrite that little 5 minute printing session I did in my garage. Then you come back a quarter of a century later having managed to 'earn' your 100 grand from others who similarly "borrowed" from me, only you now owe me another 100 grand for the interest. So, off you go again.....

There is no sense whatsoever in which this process can be called "borrowing" which is a very different thing (at least the kind you're alluding to). The way borrowing works is that something of historical value changes hands so that the lender no longer has it.

[2] - the particular merry-go-round that Greece is involved in has very little to do with the people who are "on the hook". They've never seen any of this money - it was basically a bit of fancy footwork to bailout Western European banks who'd made risky loans. So "new money" was levered up out of nowhere from a capital base of around 500 Billion to form the EFSF. That was lent to Greece who promptly gave it straight back to the banks that were going to be "in trouble" if things went the least bit awry

[3] - there is a cultural background "myth" to all this that is sometimes used to justify externally imposed austerity measures. That is that the debtor countries are somehow "lazier" and haven't worked hard enough or saved and it's therefore their own fault. In fact - statistically - the "laziest" two countries in the Eurozone are Holland and Germany by a country mile. Average Greek working hours are well in excess of that of those two countries




 

[TanteStefana2]

I don't get it.

Greece borrowed money from others, now they are keen not to pay it back?

It doesn't quite work like that. There are 3 reasons (IMO) why it's outrageous that the Greek people have to carry the can for all this austerity.

[1] - lets say I have a banking license and you don't. You ask me for EU 100,000. I don't have it (in fact I don't have anything of value whatsoever to lend you). However, I can lend you your own future if you'll just sign this form. So you sign the form, I go to my garage and print up EU 100,000 and off you go to work your butt off for the next 25 years of your life to underwrite that little 5 minute printing session I did in my garage. Then you come back a quarter of a century later having managed to 'earn' your 100 grand from others who similarly "borrowed" from me, only you now owe me another 100 grand for the interest. So, off you go again.....

There is no sense whatsoever in which this process can be called "borrowing" which is a very different thing (at least the kind you're alluding to). The way borrowing works is that something of historical value changes hands so that the lender no longer has it.

[2] - the particular merry-go-round that Greece is involved in has very little to do with the people who are "on the hook". They've never seen any of this money - it was basically a bit of fancy footwork to bailout Western European banks who'd made risky loans. So "new money" was levered up out of nowhere from a capital base of around 500 Billion to form the EFSF. That was lent to Greece who promptly gave it straight back to the banks that were going to be "in trouble" if things went the least bit awry

[3] - there is a cultural background "myth" to all this that is sometimes used to justify externally imposed austerity measures. That is that the debtor countries are somehow "lazier" and haven't worked hard enough or saved and it's therefore their own fault. In fact - statistically - the "laziest" two countries in the Eurozone are Holland and Germany by a country mile. Average Greek working hours are almost twice that of those countries

As usual, you have a better understanding than I

[wozzek23]

I don't get it.
Greece borrowed money from others, now they are keen not to pay it back?

It doesn't quite work like that. There are 3 reasons (IMO) why it's outrageous that the Greek people have to carry the can for all this austerity.

[1] - lets say I have a banking license and you don't. You ask me for EU 100,000. I don't have it (in fact I don't have anything of value whatsoever to lend you). However, I can lend you your own future if you'll just sign this form. So you sign the form, I go to my garage and print up EU 100,000 and off you go to work your butt off for the next 25 years of your life to underwrite that little 5 minute printing session I did in my garage. Then you come back a quarter of a century later having managed to 'earn' your 100 grand from others who similarly "borrowed" from me, only you now owe me another 100 grand for the interest. So, off you go again.....

There is no sense whatsoever in which this process can be called "borrowing" which is a very different thing (at least the kind you're alluding to). The way borrowing works is that something of historical value changes hands so that the lender no longer has it.

[2] - the particular merry-go-round that Greece is involved in has very little to do with the people who are "on the hook". They've never seen any of this money - it was basically a bit of fancy footwork to bailout Western European banks who'd made risky loans. So "new money" was levered up out of nowhere from a capital base of around 500 Billion to form the EFSF. That was lent to Greece who promptly gave it straight back to the banks that were going to be "in trouble" if things went the least bit awry

And all that money grubbing charade that started with - surprise, surprise - the pinnacle of the Financial Crime Cartel, glorious Goldman Sachs helping "the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit," (source: Der Spiegel February 08, 2010) ended with this beautiful situation:



"A debt that can not be paid will not be paid."

[3] - there is a cultural background "myth" to all this that is sometimes used to justify externally imposed austerity measures. That is that the debtor countries are somehow "lazier" and haven't worked hard enough or saved and it's therefore their own fault. In fact - statistically - the "laziest" two countries in the Eurozone are Holland and Germany by a country mile. Average Greek working hours are almost twice that of those countries

It is not entirely accurate, that Holland and Germany are "the laziest" and, at the same token, that "average Greek working hours are almost twice that of those countries." The U.K. Office for National Statistics published data that shows that Greek workers actually put in longer hours than anyone else in Europe — 42.2 per week, compared to just 35.6 in Germany. This is hardly double.

However, there's another, to me much more valuable piece of data, Productivity index per hour worked. If EU average is 100 than:
Greece stays at 76.3
Germany stays at  123.7 i.e an average German working hour is 62.12% more efficient than an average Greek working hour.

I guess we all know, there's work and there is "work." I intimately know both nations and from a neutral standpoint (I am neither Greek nor German) if I'd be forced to apply the world "lazy" to either of these two nations, it for sure will not have been German.

Take this as my 2 cents or shrug it off entirely.

[TanteStefana2]

work smarter not harder.

Having worked in the construction trade, I can tell you there are some very smart laborers that can do things much faster simply due to skill and plan of attack.

If I chose one saying above all the millions my mother taught, it would be this one.  And for some people, it simply comes naturally.  And it's really funny how stupid some supervisors are who would rather see someone doing busy work than industrious work

[oaxaca]

...Productivity index per hour worked. If EU average is 100 than:
Greece stays at 76.3
Germany stays at  123.7 i.e an average German working hour is 62.12% more efficient than an average Greek working hour...

If I may quote your own self:  "It doesn't quite work like that."

Productivity is the amount of fiat earned per unit of work.  This is a deceptive statistic as the infrastructure in say, Germany is far more advanced than in Greece.  A German office worker can type faster on a computer than a Greek office worker can write using pencil and paper.  How much of this infrastructure is implicitly included in your 123-76 advantage?  How did Germany gain that advantage in the first place?

Imagine 2 identical twins separated at birth 20 years ago.  One flies to Berlin and the other to Athens.  They both become machinists.  The German twin has a higher productivity than his Greek sibling in 2015.  Is the Greek kid lazy?


EDIT
--------
Now they do a house swap.  Is the "original German" kid now the lazy one?

[TanteStefana2]

...Productivity index per hour worked. If EU average is 100 than:
Greece stays at 76.3
Germany stays at  123.7 i.e an average German working hour is 62.12% more efficient than an average Greek working hour...

If I may quote your own self:  "It doesn't quite work like that."

Productivity is the amount of fiat earned per unit of work.  This is a deceptive statistic as the infrastructure in say, Germany is far more advanced than in Greece.  A German office worker can type faster on a computer than a Greek office worker can write using pencil and paper.  How much of this infrastructure is implicitly included in your 123-76 advantage?  How did Germany gain that advantage in the first place?

Imagine 2 identical twins separated at birth 20 years ago.  One flies to Berlin and the other to Athens.  They both become machinists.  The German twin has a higher productivity than his Greek sibling in 2015.  Is the Greek kid lazy?


EDIT
--------
Now they do a house swap.  Is the "original German" kid now the lazy one?

Forget who is lazy or not, people are people.  Their only issue is where they live, the opportunities available and this is limited by their government's oppressive debt.  If your business is taxed to death, if it's too hard (red tape) to run a business and most small businesses fail, then you have such a disadvantage, you can't overcome it.

Question is, who do you want to make feel the pain the most?  The Greeks?  or the wealthy banks that are in bed with the wealthy countries?  

All the debt won't be forgiven, but if there were enough pressure release, I'm sure Greece could get itself off the ground.  And if the politicians were smart, they'd get rid of all the red tape small businesses have to go though, and they would have a renaissance.

[toknormal]

It is not entirely accurate, that Holland and Germany are "the laziest" and, at the same token, that "average Greek working hours are almost twice that of those countries." The U.K. Office for National Statistics published data that shows that Greek workers actually put in longer hours than anyone else in Europe — 42.2 per week, compared to just 35.6 in Germany. This is hardly double.

Thanks !   (I wrote that from memory of seeing a table of Eu working hours by country. Must've got the wrong pair).

I've fixed my previous post.

P.S. Varoufakis now locked out of the rest of the Eurogroup meeting - not invited. They don't like it when their own rules are read back to them.

[wozzek23]

...Productivity index per hour worked. If EU average is 100 than:
Greece stays at 76.3
Germany stays at  123.7 i.e an average German working hour is 62.12% more efficient than an average Greek working hour...

If I may quote your own self:  "It doesn't quite work like that."

Productivity is the amount of fiat earned per unit of work.  This is a deceptive statistic as the infrastructure in say, Germany is far more advanced than in Greece.  A German office worker can type faster on a computer than a Greek office worker can write using pencil and paper.  How much of this infrastructure is implicitly included in your 123-76 advantage?  How did Germany gain that advantage in the first place?

Imagine 2 identical twins separated at birth 20 years ago.  One flies to Berlin and the other to Athens.  They both become machinists.  The German twin has a higher productivity than his Greek sibling in 2015.  Is the Greek kid lazy?

EDIT
--------
Now they do a house swap.  Is the "original German" kid now the lazy one?

The "original German" would teach them how to work more efficiently

Hint: Ferrari was always a great Formula 1 car. Italians are also a Mediterranean nation. Ferrari had problems (10 years without world championship) until Niki Lauda arrived and turned them around. He leaves and soon-after they went nowhere. 15 years without the world championship in, Michael Schumacher arrived and turned them around in the most spectacular way. He leaves and soon-after Ferrari slumps yet again. Sebastian Vettel arrived and is already turning them around. (only this time he competes against Mercedes

Kidding aside, it seems to me you have your conclusion and than construct a premise to support it, a very clever premise granted, but it might lead to a circular argument which is not my forte. While Tante is correct, "people are people" there's nothing wrong in stating / believing that some nations are, in average, naturally better in certain activities than the others, like Kenyan runners being better in marathon than Norwegians while you'd be hard pressed to prove that Norwegians are not better sailors than Kenyans.

This is not, I hope you will grant me that, a stereotype, but acknowledgement of the fact that the climate, geography, history makes those differences ..

[Sub-Ether]

...Productivity index per hour worked. If EU average is 100 than:
Greece stays at 76.3
Germany stays at  123.7 i.e an average German working hour is 62.12% more efficient than an average Greek working hour...

If I may quote your own self:  "It doesn't quite work like that."

Productivity is the amount of fiat earned per unit of work.  This is a deceptive statistic as the infrastructure in say, Germany is far more advanced than in Greece.  A German office worker can type faster on a computer than a Greek office worker can write using pencil and paper.  How much of this infrastructure is implicitly included in your 123-76 advantage?  How did Germany gain that advantage in the first place?

Imagine 2 identical twins separated at birth 20 years ago.  One flies to Berlin and the other to Athens.  They both become machinists.  The German twin has a higher productivity than his Greek sibling in 2015.  Is the Greek kid lazy?

EDIT
--------
Now they do a house swap.  Is the "original German" kid now the lazy one?

The "original German" would teach them how to work more efficiently

Hint: Ferrari was always a great Formula 1 car. Italians are also a Mediterranean nation. Ferrari had problems (10 years without world championship) until Niki Lauda arrived and turned them around. He leaves and soon-after they went nowhere. 15 years without the world championship in, Michael Schumacher arrived and turned them around in the most spectacular way. He leaves and soon-after Ferrari slumps yet again. Sebastian Vettel arrived and is already turning them around. (only this time he competes against Mercedes

Kidding aside, it seems to me you have your conclusion and than construct a premise to support it, a very clever premise granted, but it might lead to a circular argument which is not my forte. While Tante is correct, "people are people" there's nothing wrong in stating / believing that some nations are, in average, naturally better in certain activities than the others, like Kenyan runners being better in marathon than Norwegians while you'd be hard pressed to prove that Norwegians are not better sailors than Kenyans.

This is not, I hope you will grant me that, a stereotype, but acknowledgement of the fact that the climate, geography, history makes those differences ..

Let the stats do the talking, who is at the top and who is at the bottom ?

[Rux]

bitcoin on fire? almost 250$

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

...Productivity index per hour worked. If EU average is 100 than:
Greece stays at 76.3
Germany stays at  123.7 i.e an average German working hour is 62.12% more efficient than an average Greek working hour...

If I may quote your own self:  "It doesn't quite work like that."

Productivity is the amount of fiat earned per unit of work.  This is a deceptive statistic as the infrastructure in say, Germany is far more advanced than in Greece.  A German office worker can type faster on a computer than a Greek office worker can write using pencil and paper.  How much of this infrastructure is implicitly included in your 123-76 advantage?  How did Germany gain that advantage in the first place?

Imagine 2 identical twins separated at birth 20 years ago.  One flies to Berlin and the other to Athens.  They both become machinists.  The German twin has a higher productivity than his Greek sibling in 2015.  Is the Greek kid lazy?

EDIT
--------
Now they do a house swap.  Is the "original German" kid now the lazy one?

The "original German" would teach them how to work more efficiently

Hint: Ferrari was always a great Formula 1 car. Italians are also a Mediterranean nation. Ferrari had problems (10 years without world championship) until Niki Lauda arrived and turned them around. He leaves and soon-after they went nowhere. 15 years without the world championship in, Michael Schumacher arrived and turned them around in the most spectacular way. He leaves and soon-after Ferrari slumps yet again. Sebastian Vettel arrived and is already turning them around. (only this time he competes against Mercedes

Kidding aside, it seems to me you have your conclusion and than construct a premise to support it, a very clever premise granted, but it might lead to a circular argument which is not my forte. While Tante is correct, "people are people" there's nothing wrong in stating / believing that some nations are, in average, naturally better in certain activities than the others, like Kenyan runners being better in marathon than Norwegians while you'd be hard pressed to prove that Norwegians are not better sailors than Kenyans.

This is not, I hope you will grant me that, a stereotype, but acknowledgement of the fact that the climate, geography, history makes those differences ..

Let the stats do the talking, who is at the top and who is at the bottom ?

Ay mi Madre! Mexicanos trabajando duro....

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

The joys of fatherhood...

https://twitter.com/TaoOfSatoshi/status/614844803851882498?s=09

[wozzek23]

Ay mi Madre! Mexicanos trabajando duro....

"The phrase 'The American lives to work, and the Mexican works to live', illustrates one of the many ways that the work ethic varies between the American worker and the Mexican worker. In Mexico, for example, leisure is considered essential for a full life. Does this mean that a Mexican is lazy? Absolutely not - but unlike the stereotypical American worker that tends to put work before "play", the Mexican worker takes leisure and spending time with family very seriously. Their sense of "immediacy" is not the same as the one the American adheres to. Understanding the differences in employee motivation, rewards, and sanctions between the two cultures is imperative if a business, whether in Mexico or in the USA, is to be efficient. The Mexican worker's outlook stems from their upbringing, which is formed as well by their laws."

[TanteStefana2]

Let the stats do the talking, who is at the top and who is at the bottom ?

I'm sorry, Sub-Ether, but those statistics mean nothing to me.  Just because an average Mexican spends 60 hours a week digging ditches doesn't mean anything.  Mexico's education system is beyond broken.  If you want decent grades, in most places, you have to pay your teacher a bribe.  Bribery is the main way to earn money.  Forgive me, but Mexico is messed up.  The worst thing is they actually have a peasant mentality.  Keeping them uneducated keeps that system in tact.  Please don't get me wrong, I'm talking about their society, not individual Mexicans.  And their society has a TON of great things, like family values, hard working.  But it goes back to being more productive by working smarter not harder nor easier but longer.

It comes with education, and education is not valued in all societies.  Mostly in societies where the "haves" want to keep control.  


Edit:  I have lived with Mexican and Mexican American people all my life.  Until adulthood, my neighborhood was over 50% Mexican-American.  Since childhood, I couldn't understand why Mexico wasn't the richest country in the world.  It was so green!  So beautiful, they even have rich deposits of oil!  Why?

The answer is deeply engrained corruption which is possibly impossible to excise.  And it deeply depresses me.

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

Let the stats do the talking, who is at the top and who is at the bottom ?

I'm sorry, Sub-Ether, but those statistics mean nothing to me.  Just because an average Mexican spends 60 hours a week digging ditches doesn't mean anything.  Mexico's education system is beyond broken.  If you want decent grades, in most places, you have to pay your teacher a bribe.  Bribery is the main way to earn money.  Forgive me, but Mexico is messed up.  The worst thing is they actually have a peasant mentality.  Keeping them uneducated keeps that system in tact.  Please don't get me wrong, I'm talking about their society, not individual Mexicans.  And their society has a TON of great things, like family values, hard working.  But it goes back to being more productive by working smarter not harder nor easier but longer.

It comes with education, and education is not valued in all societies.  Mostly in societies where the "haves" want to keep control.  


Edit:  I have lived with Mexican and Mexican American people all my life.  Until adulthood, my neighborhood was over 50% Mexican-American.  Since childhood, I couldn't understand why Mexico wasn't the richest country in the world.  It was so green!  So beautiful, they even have rich deposits of oil!  Why?

The answer is deeply engrained corruption which is possibly impossible to excise.  And it deeply depresses me.

I think he was trying to point out the difference between the longer working, inefficient Greeks, and the efficient, shorter work time Germans with that graph.

I just hijacked the thread a bit with my Mexican comment. Sorry!

[wozzek23]

Let the stats do the talking, who is at the top and who is at the bottom ?

In the graph Sub-Ether posted (I removed to save same space here) Greece is near the top and German near the bottom and this is his (?) point. Firstly allow me to state I am not making an argument for the Germans or against the Greeks, I just find the statistical argument (I used the same) funny.

Take this set of data: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=FTPTC_D

"You see the OECD figures do not compare like for like. They lump part-time and full time employees together without any adjustment so countries with a larger percentage of part-time employees will tend to have fewer average hours to show for it. As this OECD table will show you, part-time employment is very rare in Greece. To take the example most likely to raise eyebrows, 22% of German workers worked part-time in 2008, against 8% in Greece.The OECD also lumps together female and male employees, so any country which manages to get more women into the workforce also has fewer hours worked to show for it because women typically worker fewer hours. For background, only 56% of Greek working age women were economically active in 2008, against 71% of German working age women source: http://bit.ly/1fRYa0t. Account for that, and for all the other ways in which the two labour forces differ, and, well, it gets complicated."

The rest, a perfect example of making someone's point, is here: http://lolgreece.blogspot.com/2012/06/exploding-myth-of-exploding-myth-of.html

But, yet again, Tante was correct. Corruption (in Mexico where I used to live or in Greece I know quite well) is the main source of these, and many other, countries misery. And how the people cope? They go to "work" and just sit there. In certain poorer countries, where the low wages is a real problem, there's an expression, roughly translated as "I can always work less than you pay me."

[toknormal]

Zerohedgers...

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

Someone just sold 471 DASH on Cryptsy. With not much volume lately, it looks like a huge candle...

[TanteStefana2]

"I can always work less than you pay me."

LOL, I like that!

[Sub-Ether]

Atm run atm run!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33300543
'Eurozone finance ministers have rejected a Greek request to extend a bailout programme beyond 30 June.'

Edit: one third of ATM's ran dry today, and are being replenished, wonder how long that will last, where's helicopter Ben when you need him.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/27/eurozone-greece-banks-idUSL5N0ZD0Q820150627