[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[georgem]

STRONG! DARKCOIN!

STRONG!



I know why I love this coin.

If Darkcoin were a computer game...
...

Just yesterday I rewatched street fighter assassin's fist..
I highly recommend it, finally a street fighter movie I can enjoy.

I would though not take ryu as darkcoin representative, but rather this guy:



Click for youtube video:


Although ryu has a dark side too... I see what you did there...

[novaboy2k]

Its fucking genius

It's not fucking genius. It's potential f*cking suicide if not thought through in great detail.

Money and utility are two mutually exclusive services. You can't just stumble into a policy like this without addressing that fundamental dichotomy and work out exactly how your going to resolve it.

If demand for masternodes goes through the roof because of ROI then the coin may go out of circulation, or at least will derive all its value from a single revenue stream as opposed to a diverse micro economy. Then, along comes competition - not for the cryptocurrency but for the Dark TOR service and bang goes your revenue stream and along with it your entire cryptocurency.

On the other hand, the service aspect of the coin could act as a bootstrap mechanism in giving real value to the currency and propelling it into wider adoption and circulation....IF the fundamental dichotomy above (between monetary value and utility value) is recognised and highly controlled.

For my own part, I'm very clear. I'm investing in a currency, not an internet service provider of which there are thousands. Nor am I investing in a f*cking business.

The more utility value a currency has, the less monetary value it can have. Nothing can get round that fundamental fact and people need to have it in big neon lights in front of their noses before getting dollar signs in their eyes.

Interesting info for sure. Definitely something to take into consideration. I think the internet access is more to allow darkcoin users to interact. After all how can you anonymously send DRK across the country without being able to first give the other person your wallet address? If you just emailed your wallet address then you've totally blown any chance of being anonymous. Access to an anonymous internet allows that communication.

"If demand for masternodes goes through the roof because of ROI then the coin may go out of circulation, or at least will derive all its value from a single revenue stream as opposed to a diverse micro economy. Then, along comes competition - not for the cryptocurrency but for the Dark TOR service and bang goes your revenue stream and along with it your entire cryptocurency."

Your saying that deflation causes a currency to collapse. Id say this is wrong.

1 Darkcoin is 100,000,000 duffs. That's allot of 0s we have to get down to for darkcoin to deflate to much.
This isn't a problem imo.

More masternodes = more decentralization = more trust = more value.

[camosoul]

+1

Camosoul, Ozziecoin please read this over and over until you pass out

What the fuck this has to do with me? I've got Ozzie on ignore 100 pages before chaeplin...

[camosoul]

It's not a conspiracy to suggest that there are backdoors in computer hardware. It's a fact and we've known about it for a while.

It's still a conspiracy to people who haven't been paying attention for the past few years.

"No way the NSA is spying on everyone! That can't be possible."

so painfully true.

[RenegadeMan]

Is DarkTor the definite name? The word Tor is becoming a little synonymous with drugs and child porn. VPN and others not so much.

The thing is our concept is Tor-like rather than VPN-like

Sorry for the long post but this is very important.

I haven't posted too often in this thread but I've pretty much read all the pages (sometimes flicking rapidly down the screen to get past the less than relevant stuff and occasionally needing to miss a wad of pages to quickly catch up). I'm heavily invested in DRK. It's been the coin I've kept the bulk of my crypto value in. I'm as pleased as the next person to see the price free-fall coming to an end and I'm also excited about the possibilities Evan's latest announcement has brought.

However, I think we need to have an urgent and open discussion about the potential unintended consequences of "DarkTor" (or whatever it's going to be called). For a while now the term "dark" has been sitting uncomfortably with me. Not because the dev's intention is to create a tool for illegal money laundering and drug money to hide itself, but that the mainstream media and public in general are immediately going to assume "DarkCoin" is about illegal activity and underworld crime. Outside of the coolness of Batman who fights crime and keeps the residents of Gotham safe and a distinct type of chocolate, "dark" generally relates to a side of human nature that everyone knows exists but most don't want to investigate. One can watch a film that is "dark", one can engage in illegal activities that would be thought of as "dark", one can investigate the occult and black magic which is most definitely "dark" and one can find one's way into a whole "dark" world on the internet that's going to involve all sorts of "dark" things like the supply of illicit drugs, child pornography, terrorism and human trafficking. Like it or not, for the public and mainstream media, dark = bad/illegal/criminal.

Now, we have the remarkable opportunity to provision completely anonymous Internet access/browsing and Tor-like privacy (but even better than Tor given the likely flaws in Tor as it stands) and create an outstanding revenue stream for MN operators. As many posters on here have pointed out, this is what crypto's been missing, an immediate and powerful reason for new money to come into crypto and get immediate value (rather than it just being a purely speculative play). It opens up enormous potential for DRK to sky-rocket in value and become a much much bigger undertaking.

All good and wonderful. But (and it's a monumental BUT that I don't think anyone's truly thinking though), if DarkCoin previously had the potential to be seen as dubious because of its name and association with possible money laundering and illegality, DarkTor will 100% cement that perception. If you can pay $0.50 per day to browser the Internet completely anonymously and securely, it will become THE paedophile and terrorist tool of choice. In fact, once it becomes known as THE answer to web anonymity because the technology is so sound and so thorough, it will be THE ONLY place paedophiles and terrorists go to ply their trade.

Just how long do you think DRK is going to last under this scenario? How likely is it MN operators will just be left to carry on on their merry way, earning dollars and maintaining the network without intervention by a plethora of government entities? How long before major investigative programs like the PBS's FRONTLINE in the US and the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's 4Corners in Australia do a massive exposure of what's going on with DRK? If there's proof terrorists and paedophiles are using it, do you think the libertarian arguments many of us here know and love about the right to privacy will even feature as a counterpoint to what's potential going through the DRK network?
0
I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm bursting everyone's bubble (and please, let's be intelligent enough with this that I don't get accusations of troll and FUD hurled at me; this is a legitimate concern that needs to be addressed). We are all having a wonderful time talking about how exciting this is and how rosy the future looks. As a technologist that also has high levels of EQ, a heart, a soul and a deep level of care for my fellow man, I can see this turning into a "marketing", "damage control", "PR" disaster.

Evan, if you've truly built a better version of Tor (without all the worry of nodes being run by the NSA and potential flaws and vulnerabilities exposing users' browsing) then you have achieved something remarkable. But, you've also created something that is going to become a massive threat to law enforcement and security. It will not go unnoticed by those that have a vested interest in preventing technology like this being used by humans that want to do damage. I've mentioned something similar to this in a previous post (some weeks or month ago), the words "dark coin" or dark tor" are likely to end up with the worst of the worst connotations that will make the phrase "silk road" sound like something Disney might be involved in.

I implore every one to take off their techo propeller hat for a moment and discuss this from a human/societal perspective. We're likely to see DRK go to great heights only to become a concept so offensive and dirty that anyone who's even been remotely involved will be labelled with the same connotations as the criminals who're likely to become DRK's best customers. As for mainstream POS take-up of DRK, even at the most basic level on websites that might currently be offering Bitcoin, I think we could completely forget that possibility if DRK gets associated first and foremost with criminal activity.

I'm very concerned.

[camosoul]

Faster than tor - Tor has historically been very slow. This will be a lean version, that has much higher throughput.

I wonder if this will amplify the effectiveness of traffic analysis?

The stacking depth of DarkSend+ automatically makes timing analysis futile. But speed is inversely proportional combating this, methinks...

[coins101]

Web 3.0 is the Master Nodes.

They are not the same thing.  The Master Nodes are an infrastructure service that has to be paid for. Bandwidth is not for the currency to sort out. That's an issue over, err, bandwidth. Its not linked to mining. Its not linked to block chain bloat. Its hardware and routing speeds. If you pay enough, you get the bandwidth.

I think I'd be less worried about this if I was convinced that it wouldn't corrupt Evan's original equilibrium principle between masternode supply and demand so that the majority of the coin supply was kept in circulation.

That's partly what I meant by "highly controlled" in my little rant above.

Right now, this works because the PE ratio of a masternode is calculated (and fixed) purely in terms of DRK (at 20% of the mined supply). What that means in fiat depends on the value of DRK's role as a currency.

On the other hand, with the new service model, the PE ratio will be calculated in terms of FIAT and will have a fixed revenue in fiat (in $ per hour of service). This turns the whole thing on its head because 1 Darkcoin now becomes no more than a share unit in a fiat revenue model. The price equilibrium will now revolve around the fiat ROI on a masternode and all DRKs will go out of circulation at that price point.

That's where I see the huge banana skin in this whole idea.

The number of masternodes and the quantity of DRK in circulation could be automatically adjusted by (1) changing the qty of DRK required to operate a masternode and (2) the price of the DarkTor service in DRK. If there was a target of 10K masternodes and 50% currency in circulation, changing the cost and profitability of operating a masternode can maintain these targets.

That being said, there will always be investors who buy and hold DRK without operating masternodes. Nothing you can do about that but give them more opportunity and reason to spend their dark - by opening up a merchant network and reminding everyone of the transparency of bitcoin.

I think we need some more challenges on this. Just so we can work through them and get the principles of the economics right.

For my part, I see this main challenge as one of....but what happens if it becomes too popular?

That there is a very high level problem to have an I'll take those kind of problems any day of the week.

[tungfa]

Is DarkTor the definite name? The word Tor is becoming a little synonymous with drugs and child porn. VPN and others not so much.

The thing is our concept is Tor-like rather than VPN-like

it will become THE paedophile and terrorist tool of choice

relax relax !
paedophile and terrorists !
WTF
 
i think they are using the regular internet as much as anything else,
and that has not been shut down yet ? Correct ?
Same with TOR and all the other dark nets .... since Sinkroad went bust
all marketplaces in the dark net are booming more than ever.
There will be always bad players (paedophiles and terrorist ... if you wanna call em that)
but that does not mean that you can not open a TOR like, decentralized Marketplace !
There is more to that then just porn and drugs !

read this, maybe it helps:
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/we-talk-share-create-exchange-resolve-decentralized-autonomous-society

[camosoul]

Overall though this kind of rate of increase ain't sustainable much longer.

It's not a rate of increase, it's a correction from a whale exit.

[tungfa]

Overall though this kind of rate of increase ain't sustainable much longer.

It's not a rate of increase, it's a correction from a whale exit.

bye bye whale
time to get some fresh good into this party ! ....>

[camosoul]

DRK becomes partly backed by something - fiat, and demand for a service.

It just adds the demand for anon net to the demand for anon ecash, and uses the latter to fund the former, while being both.

I saw this coming in March and is why I went all in. I didn't know how Evan was going to do it, but I knew what he was planning.

[Terzo]

That rise felt good !

[coins101]

I'm very concerned.

Very valid concerns.

You will have noticed that I have been suggesting a name change, resulting in a compromise, from my part, of putting forward just DRK.

I have also been looking at white label options where the wallet is given a completely different branding. Who cares that there is something called DRK running the network from behind?

DRKTor

Tor is legal

https://www.torproject.org/eff/tor-legal-faq

My view is that its like people growing pot in their rented homes. You don't arrest the property owner, you arrest those that are growing.

Master Nodes are not those putting any illegal material on the network. The cops have to hunt and arrest those that do the crime.

That's how the internet works now. Illegal file sharing is illegal, you go after king dot com, not the ISP whose wires get used.

PirateBay was attacked because those running it were going after illegal content to make them money.  DRKTor would be a way to access legal content. A small percentage may use it for other things. Fine, honey trap and sting them.

For me, this is the first project that has a crypto backed by something tangible. DRK coins will have intrinsic value because you need them to use the DRKTor infrastructure.

We have always said that Bitcoin is too far ahead to beat. Now that only applies to mainstream merchant outlets.

We can have something approaching Bitcoin value, by creating the value ourselves.

For me, DRKTor is not a criminal infrastructure network, it would be a tool and the answer to being tracked to death by every single internet company.

The governments of the world make and sell weapons to criminal States. They get used for illegal purposes. They still make more weapons. We should ban this before looking to ban DRKTor before it gets going.

[camosoul]

Fundamentals got stronger.

Blood in the streets.

If you had the balls to buy, you made a fucking ton of money the last 48 hours.

Stop it with the balls!  If there is no money, no BTC, nobody buying my offers of sex, I can't buy!     (actually I didn't offer any, but if I did, I'm certain one look and they'd back out of the deal, so....??)

Want one of mine? Apparently they're far more potent than most... I really only need the one.

[Macno]

I implore every one to take off their techo propeller hat for a moment and discuss this from a human/societal perspective. We're likely to see DRK go to great heights only to become a concept so offensive and dirty that anyone who's even been remotely involved will be labelled with the same connotations as the criminals who're likely to become DRK's best customers. As for mainstream POS take-up of DRK, even at the most basic level on websites that might currently be offering Bitcoin, I think we could completely forget that possibility if DRK gets associated first and foremost with criminal activity.

I'm very concerned.

I am no techie at all, just an investor. And I am libertarian, which for me means to be opposed to child abuse and most activities referred to as "terrorism" (which includes the most common - government sponsored terrorism, by the way...).
I get your point, but what do you suggest? You can`t filter the traffic running through DarkTor can you?

[RenegadeMan]

I'm very concerned.

Very valid concerns.

You will have noticed that I have been suggesting a name change, resulting in a compromise, from my part, of putting forward just DRK.

I have also been looking at white label options where the wallet is given a completely different branding. Who cares that there is something called DRK running the network from behind?

DRKTor

Tor is legal

https://www.torproject.org/eff/tor-legal-faq

My view is that its like people growing pot in their rented homes. You don't arrest the property owner, you arrest those that are growing.

Master Nodes not those putting any illegal material on the network. The cops have to hunt and arrest those that do the crime.

That's how the internet works now. Illegal file sharing is illegal, you go after king dot com, not the ISP whose wires get used.

For me, this is the first project that has a crypto backed by something tangible. DRK coins will have intrinsic value because you need them to use the DRKTor infrastructure.

We have always said that Bitcoin is too far ahead to beat. Now that only applies to mainstream merchant outlets.

We can have something approaching Bitcoin value, by creating the value ourselves.

For me, DRKTor is not a criminal infrastructure network, it would be a tool and the answer to being tracked to death by every single internet company.

The governments of the world make and sell weapons. They get used for illegal purposes. They still make more weapons. We should ban this before looking to ban DRKTor before it gets going.

Thanks for responding coins101; I always enjoy your posts.

I know, and you know (and probably most of the people on here know) that an anonymous currency and Internet browsing tool like DarkCoin/DarkTor IS NOT to blame for people doing illegal things and committing crime any more than say a road is the cause of a fleeing bank robber. Crime will likely always exist and criminals will continue to find new and novel ways to perform their dastardly deeds.

But, the public takes years to come around to the logic of valid arguments. And in the post 9/11 world of "homeland security" governments are taking liberties that they could never have gotten away with previously. I've had to listen to numerous ignorant people talking about ISPs being responsible for illegal file downloads. That these same people would think you're mad to say the phone company is responsible for the content of criminals' conversations being conveyed across the wires, but they struggle to understand how an ISP is only a conveyance mechanism and can't be responsible for policing content. This is what we'll likely face. Mr and Mrs Joe Public (manipulated and controlled by the guv, big business and the media) will not be able to differentiate between a network that guarantees privacy (for a thousand valid democracy-based reasons) and people using it to perform criminal acts. And our protestations on this will just be lost in a sea of damnation if DRK is found to have been the conduit for communications/funds transfer for terrorists who've committed some major attack.

It's one thing to hold a purest view on how this "should" play out (and how we "should" be treated) it' another thing to prepare for the likely reality. I'm just saying we need to risk profile this as I think it's potentially a show-stopper somewhere down the track.

[RenegadeMan]

I implore every one to take off their techo propeller hat for a moment and discuss this from a human/societal perspective. We're likely to see DRK go to great heights only to become a concept so offensive and dirty that anyone who's even been remotely involved will be labelled with the same connotations as the criminals who're likely to become DRK's best customers. As for mainstream POS take-up of DRK, even at the most basic level on websites that might currently be offering Bitcoin, I think we could completely forget that possibility if DRK gets associated first and foremost with criminal activity.

I'm very concerned.

I am no techie at all, just an investor. And I am libertarian, which for me means to be opposed to child abuse and most activities referred to as "terrorism" (which includes the most common - government sponsored terrorism, by the way...).
I get your point, but what do you suggest? You can`t filter the traffic running through DarkTor can you?

Macno I don't yet know what to offer as a solution, but I'm thinking this is primarily a marketing issue. We're all here singing the praises of privacy and anonymity because many of us have come from a libertarian perspective meaning we don't need to have a "your right to privacy 101" conversation before we even start. But Average Joe is clueless about privacy and has no idea how their profile data is being used by guv and big business every day to milk them for more and more. And if something big like 9/11 (or even a smaller version) was to happen, the guv will look for any scapegoats they can find where messaging can be put out that Average Joe will fall for and DRK will be right in the firing line.

Somehow, I think we need to consider whether the term "dark" is just already too far gone in the public's mind and creates unnecessary risk for us (i.e. rather than trying to educate people on what this is really all about, which will be almost impossible, especially during a witch hunt, maybe we need to come up with different terminology altogether).

Edit: And if something big like 9/11 (or even a smaller version) was to happen, the guv will look for any scapegoats they can find where messaging can be put out that Average Joe will fall for and DRK will be right in the firing line.

[RenegadeMan]

Im in 99%

hooooohooooo, wake up, its not ello kitty world here.




For everything else you have DRK

Sorry Gay to compare you to RenegadeMan, realy.

No. I'm not in 99% otherwise I wouldn't be articulating such a concept (or even be here in this thread). I'm purely considering the risk to DRK from 99%'s reaction under mass manipulation by guv, bigbis, media. It's a very real risk and one to be considered rather than discredited like you've just done.

[doubleredrolex]

Development Update - August 19, 2014


Bug squashing and the stability of Darksend

During the last week we’ve been squashing bugs in the RC4 client and getting everything as stable as possible. As of the last update, it’s working for nearly everyone and humming along.

The next 3-6 weeks will be spent creating the RC5 client which will have a few minor updates including some known issues resolved along with a basic gui that shows the current status of Darksend.

Also, we’ll be working on improving the Darksend source code and getting it ready for other programmers to help out. It needs heavy commenting and some basic refactoring.

Kristov Atlas and the code/security review

Kristov is preparing deliverables for both the strength of anonymity and the code security of Darksend. Expect this to be released while work on RC5 is ongoing. Depending on what Kristov has found, this could delay RC5 so that we can fix important issues. As it currently stands, that doesn’t appear to be a concern.

Enforcement

Due to the delayed release of RC4, enforcement of masternode payments was not able to be extensively tested. We plan on beginning testing this feature soon. If possible, it will be turned on in mainnet before the launch of RC5.

Open Sourcing

RC5 should be solid for open sourcing. We’ll have someone else look the source over, then we’ll be open-sourcing soon after. While this is ongoing, we’ll start work on our next project.

Utilizing the Masternode network - DarkTor

One of the future goals is to turn the masternode network into a decentralized business for masternode operators. To do this we’ll add features that improve the privacy of end users and compete with centralized businesses. Our first endeavor into this is to make a completely private tor network within Darkcoin.

The Darkcoin network will begin to offer anonymous internet access via the masternode network. As a user, all you’ll have to do is pay a fee for 24 hours of access. This fee will be paid to a masternode in much the same way the masternode fees are paid, using a deterministic algorithm for distributing the payments evenly across the whole network.

There’s a few benefits to running a private tor network through Darkcoin.
Sybil resistant - Due to the cost of obtaining masternodes, it will be very difficult for any one person to view all traffic.
Anonymous Payments - Users can pay anonymously for the service
Private Network - Our tor network will be internal to darkcoin only. All traffic will be paid traffic, so the cost of running the service should be profitable for the masternode operators.
Faster than tor - Tor has historically been very slow. This will be a lean version, that has much higher throughput.

As for the cost of the service we’re thinking $0.50 per day or something to that effect.

We’re still working on the details how this will function and this isn’t a feature that we’re absolutely set on. We’re very interested to get the community’s response to see if it’s viable .

Other Future Ideas

Maybe after it’s opensource other developers can help with some of these ideas:

https://darkcointalk.org/threads/list-of-future-development-ideas.89/

thanks Ignition75! awesome!

Very cool. Extremely interested in the DarkTOR network and Quantium computer resistant algorithms. That would sure put DRK ahead of the pack on all levels. Very excited to be here on the ground floor of something so big.

[toknormal]

Your saying that deflation causes a currency to collapse. Id say this is wrong.

No, I didn't say that.

I said its economic role potentially sfifts from a monetary one to a utility one. In other words instead of investing in a potential cryptocurrency that sees adoption across many sectors of the economy, you're investing in a business with a fiat revenue stream.

The problem I see with that is not that it isn't potentially a successful revenue stream but that it changes the nature of the 'product' and makes it far easier for competitors to replicate.

Again, utility value and monetary value to NOT add. They are mutually exclusive roles in any economy. You don't add value to a monetary medium by giving it utility value - rather the utility value diminishes the monetary value by making it less efficient in a monetary role.