[ANN] [PMC] Premine Coin | Rare | Mining Transaction Fee Proof of Concept

[EcuaMobi]

People like proof of burn... ( for whatever reason )
I also think reducing the number of PMC out there may make the original PMC work more as well...

I really think the extra media coverage from Sean's Outpost (if they agree to that) would be more beneficial for PMC than the reduction of coins.
That'd benefit PMC, PMP and Sean's.

And what about proof-of-donation for BTC-to-PMP conversion instead of giving it away completely free? Those could be 2 different ideas to discuss independently.



 

[kbroadfoot]

I was the connection to Sean's Outpost. I don;t believe they have spent their PMC yet..
They might actually trade in as well...

The proof of burn is a great marketing thing...
I am convinced all PMC will not be traded in...

[kbroadfoot]

It seems most of the questions have been answered by you guys already!

In regards to destroying PMC yes, I will be creating a burn address.
An address that is unattainable.
I've spoken with the counterparty devs on how to go about generating it. Might as well let the cat out of the bag:

1PMCxxxSWAPxxxToxxxPMPxxxXXXUfNchW


I've already sent 1.0001 PMC there as a test.

As kbroadfoot mentioned we have a swap plan in place. The details will be released in the swap ANN which will be a new thread.

PMP will be unique in that it will be the first (and as far as I know of) only PoS coin to run on transaction fees instead of stake %.

When you stake and you are selected to generate the next block, you will receive all the fees from the transactions that were included in that block.
Just like the original experiment, mining for tx fees.
Except we will be staking for tx fees.

This makes PMP unique.

Due to the distribution strategy PMP will also be scarce. No one person will have too much.
Regarding double dipping, this will be kept to a minimum by only allowing accounts with 20+ activity.
We may end up modifying the giveaway plan before we ANN though as I have some concerns.

Please do NOT send anything to the burn address yet as we are not ready to start swapping.

I took a look:  http://blockchain.premineco.in/address/1PMCxxxSWAPxxxToxxxPMPxxxXXXUfNchW

It shows only the transaction fee.... the 1 PMC went to this address: http://blockchain.premineco.in/address/169RELZjaGKcTsfN12DWDd8NADJqC4UjrE

As far as I can tell...

[Benezivas]

I just had a quick thought that I wanted to throw in so that I can see your opinion on the topic: How about we do part IPO, part giveaway? That meaning, everyone may get a certain amount of giveaway coins, let's say X coins. Those that want more coins are then able to buy more coins in an IPO which is set at a fixed price (let's say 10 cents per coin, I am just throwing numbers around).

The next step: After we have put these 250k coins into the wild, the price for the next IPO will be slightly higher and less coins are given out. This has 2 effects that the new coin would really benefit from:
a) Not too many coins are given away freely -> less automatic dumping
b) People who are interested in more coins will choose to buy from the market as long as the price is lower -> PMC price will rise to the IPO cap (best case).
c) We are building towards an initial value of PMP which isn't in the cellar from the beginning on.

Now there are some fragile variables that we would have to decide on if we chose to pick this way of distribution, these mainly being: How many coins (percentage) would be given away in which portions, which percentage held back for the ipo? What should the initial IPO price be and how should it be iterated (if at all)? And a really general but important question: What should we do with the remaining coins of each phase? Destroy them? Take them into the next phase? Something different?

It would be neat if we could start a little discussion about this, I know that there are some people around here that hate the idea to combine Preminecoin with an IPO, but it may actually be benefital for the whole start.

Also, listen to this idea: We could donate a huge portion of the IPO (if not all) to charity. I don't think any coin has done this before and it would get us some great attention.

Ideas, Opinions?

[kbroadfoot]

I just had a quick thought that I wanted to throw in so that I can see your opinion on the topic: How about we do part IPO, part giveaway? That meaning, everyone may get a certain amount of giveaway coins, let's say X coins. Those that want more coins are then able to buy more coins in an IPO which is set at a fixed price (let's say 10 cents per coin, I am just throwing numbers around).

The next step: After we have put these 250k coins into the wild, the price for the next IPO will be slightly higher and less coins are given out. This has 2 effects that the new coin would really benefit from:
a) Not too many coins are given away freely -> less automatic dumping
b) People who are interested in more coins will choose to buy from the market as long as the price is lower -> PMC price will rise to the IPO cap (best case).
c) We are building towards an initial value of PMP which isn't in the cellar from the beginning on.

Now there are some fragile variables that we would have to decide on if we chose to pick this way of distribution, these mainly being: How many coins (percentage) would be given away in which portions, which percentage held back for the ipo? What should the initial IPO price be and how should it be iterated (if at all)? And a really general but important question: What should we do with the remaining coins of each phase? Destroy them? Take them into the next phase? Something different?

It would be neat if we could start a little discussion about this, I know that there are some people around here that hate the idea to combine Preminecoin with an IPO, but it may actually be benefital for the whole start.

Also, listen to this idea: We could donate a huge portion of the IPO (if not all) to charity. I don't think any coin has done this before and it would get us some great attention.

Ideas, Opinions?

Please keep these ideas coming....  I am going to mull over the idea of a charity IPO... that is rather unique for sure...

[bluedude]

I just had a quick thought that I wanted to throw in so that I can see your opinion on the topic: How about we do part IPO, part giveaway? That meaning, everyone may get a certain amount of giveaway coins, let's say X coins. Those that want more coins are then able to buy more coins in an IPO which is set at a fixed price (let's say 10 cents per coin, I am just throwing numbers around).

The next step: After we have put these 250k coins into the wild, the price for the next IPO will be slightly higher and less coins are given out. This has 2 effects that the new coin would really benefit from:
a) Not too many coins are given away freely -> less automatic dumping
b) People who are interested in more coins will choose to buy from the market as long as the price is lower -> PMC price will rise to the IPO cap (best case).
c) We are building towards an initial value of PMP which isn't in the cellar from the beginning on.

Now there are some fragile variables that we would have to decide on if we chose to pick this way of distribution, these mainly being: How many coins (percentage) would be given away in which portions, which percentage held back for the ipo? What should the initial IPO price be and how should it be iterated (if at all)? And a really general but important question: What should we do with the remaining coins of each phase? Destroy them? Take them into the next phase? Something different?

It would be neat if we could start a little discussion about this, I know that there are some people around here that hate the idea to combine Preminecoin with an IPO, but it may actually be benefital for the whole start.

Also, listen to this idea: We could donate a huge portion of the IPO (if not all) to charity. I don't think any coin has done this before and it would get us some great attention.

Ideas, Opinions?

The only problem with the IPO is the lack of a development team.
When people want to invest in a coin, they will look for whats coming next, so that they can make money when the 'next thing' is achieved.

[yogibaer]

The only problem with the IPO is the lack of a development team.
When people want to invest in a coin, they will look for whats coming next, so that they can make money when the 'next thing' is achieved.

+1

I repeat my question from post No. 7944 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=427519.msg7363920#msg7363920 and post No. 7947 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=427519.msg7364633#msg7364633

[kbroadfoot]

Technical development may be lacking a bit at the moment, but we can find a dev for the coin itself...
I am thinking of trying to get byronP of Atomic-Trade to adopt us... ( he may be one we have to 'bribe' with some coin but we WILL discuss it first, all coins out will be accounted for )

What we do have is a web designer, we have a cold wallet and android wallet man 'equamobi' who will be helpful...

We have others who may be setting up a multipool...

We have people who are concerned deeply about the 'giveaway' systems...

I am deeply concerned about the swap and what happens to the additional coins left over...

AND we are all ears....

This coin does have one unique feature that no other POS coin has.... The transaction fees are paid to the POS blocks... in that it is completely unique....

With 1 million coins initially and 1 million more paid over 5 years of POS, we have a good shot at being relevant...
Doge proved that technical bells and whistles mean nothing... it is all perceptions.... the PMC people stuck with PMC for a heckava long time and most of us are still here for PMP....

Lets roll!

[ctenc001]

So do we have an exact target date for release? I thought it was going to be the beginning of this week but then wallet issues prevented that.
I'd gladly build a new website or convert the PMC website to PMP once the coin details are fully hashed out and launched.

[EcuaMobi]

Can I have access to the new wallet? and 1 PMP to test and then send back?

I want to have a paper wallet generator at launch time.

My idea is to have http://preminer.com/ for PMC and http://preminer.com/plus/ for PMP. Any comments?

[TheMightyX]

I don't want to sound like a greedy hoarder that is fearing for the wealth of his coins, but I am a little concerned about giving away 250k coins in a short amount of time. You have to take into account that without enough people claiming these coins, this might result in few people getting a lot of coins, thus automatically lowering the base value of the coin.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for giving away all the coins in a reasonable amount of time, but this time we should ensure a wider spread of the coins and especially aim at growing the community.

I understand your concern, my original intention was to give away equal amounts of 20% each month for 5 months. Then we moved to a halving amount similar to PoW rewards. This is why I mentioned that we may change the giveaway structure before we announce.

I think 1 month isn't that short, at least not in crypto. And we should indeed be careful about the giveaway. We need to make a system that limits the amount of 'double dippers', but still make sure it is easy to join. We could also limit the amount of coins per person on forehand, to make sure that if there aren't enough legit applicants they won't get huge amount of coins (say 1000 coins p.p. max, so at least 250 people in first giveaway). We could then move 'left over' coins to the next giveaway round.

No, 1 month is definitely a long time and if we all do our part to bump the giveaway thread and keep it up on page 1 of the forums, in one month we should be able to get several hundred applicants easily. All we need is 250 applicants to reduce the reward to 1000. if we get 500 which should be attainable, thats only 500 per person.

I like your idea though and it has been noted, we will need to discuss this some more.

I still don't get why there has to be a huge giveaway or a giveaway at all. From an investor's point of view this is pure poison.
Coin's supply would had been dramatically shortend, if there was only a swap. In Your scenario there will be even more coins.

In fact this is not the case. I didn't want to have to spell this out but look at it this way. If you are holding 4000 PMC and we start giving away a lot of PMC to a few people, thats bad. But what if we start giving away PMC to a lot of people? each person gets less, thats not as bad. What if we gave pmc away to so many people that each person only got 200 PMC?

Your initial stake is now worth 20x what their initial stake is worth. The more people we manage to give "free" PMC to, the more your PMC stake is worth. From an investors point of view that should have been obvious.

Something else to remember, you may think your PMC is worth X amount right now (it's not), but if you tried to sell it due to the low liquidity you would crash the market. You couldn't get 1/10th of the full value of your PMC. Even if we initially lower the value of your PMC, the benefit is you will actually be able to trade it.

As well, even if the first wave of recipients dump their PMC, the third, or fourth and especially fifth wave of receipients will be sharing such a small amount of PMC.

500 applicants sharing 250k seems like a lot, but 500 sharing 20k is not much, is it?

We will be creating scarcity by continually squeezing the amount of PMC to very very low amounts.

[TheMightyX]

I still don't get why there has to be a huge giveaway or a giveaway at all. From an investor's point of view this is pure poison.
Coin's supply would had been dramatically shortend, if there was only a swap. In Your scenario there will be even more coins.

Well the idea is to attract new people and new interest to PMP. It became clear that with the current amount of users we aren't able to keep the coin alive. Rarity in itself does not mean value. Rarity combined with many users (demand) does. The new PMP still has only a few coins compared to most other coins out there.

Other coins tried this, PMC included, it never worked out.

Stop poo-pooing our ideas Bergmann.
The reasons it "never worked out" could be many, but most likely they were flawed in the "give everything away all at once" model. This is a problem that plagues most PoS coins as well. You have this huge dump of coins on the market and if the price goes up, you have 100% of the market able and in most cases willing to cash out. The same goes for if the price drops, 100% of the market is able to panic and sell.

We will continue to discuss the terms of the giveaway but you can stop shitting on our donuts now. We are giving the coins away. The only thing that will change is how we do it.

[TheMightyX]

I still don't get why there has to be a huge giveaway or a giveaway at all. From an investor's point of view this is pure poison.
Coin's supply would had been dramatically shortend, if there was only a swap. In Your scenario there will be even more coins.

PremineCoin was born of the idea you 'premine em all and give them all away'. At the time 'premine' was a dirty word. Bringing on scammer accusations etc etc...

This is PreminePlus...  we carry on that original idea.. we GIVE away em all.. just like before... with the slight exception of previous PMC holders have a sort of IPO stake in this new coin ( if they desire ) with the swap.

Well said,
I think we can do it in a much better way though.
Certainly dumping 100% of the coins onto the market all at once was a bad idea in the first place.

God damn there are a lot of messages 

[TheMightyX]

I don't know if it's too late to change plans. But what if we change to a "proof-of-donation" for PMP distribution?

For example, we could ask Sean's Outpost to create special PMC and BTC addresses for us (or use current addresses).

Then we can continue with the 1-to-1 swap from PMC, sending to that address instead of 1PMCxxxSWAP... And we can set a price for BTC-to-PMP, probably something around PMC price at Poloniex.

Sean's Outpost would publish something in their site. He'll be able to help with the donations, and we'll get some media coverage.

I don't like it, partly due to the fact that it won't last. Donations all though great for initial attention always fizzle and fade away. Unless it is an ongoing charity it will die out relatively quickly.

Also what would be the point in donating PMC to seans outpost?
Who will he sell the coins to? Theres no one to buy them, and if anyone was to buy them they would just be a bagholder of a dead coin. I get the BTC to PMP but we can still do that without making that the main focus of the giveaway.
This is great discussion stuff guys. These kind of suggestions are exactly what we need to move ourselves forwards and upwards.
I'd like to hold a group discussion on this topic if we can arrange to get a majority of us together.

[TheMightyX]

It seems most of the questions have been answered by you guys already!

In regards to destroying PMC yes, I will be creating a burn address.
An address that is unattainable.
I've spoken with the counterparty devs on how to go about generating it. Might as well let the cat out of the bag:

1PMCxxxSWAPxxxToxxxPMPxxxXXXUfNchW


I've already sent 1.0001 PMC there as a test.

As kbroadfoot mentioned we have a swap plan in place. The details will be released in the swap ANN which will be a new thread.

PMP will be unique in that it will be the first (and as far as I know of) only PoS coin to run on transaction fees instead of stake %.

When you stake and you are selected to generate the next block, you will receive all the fees from the transactions that were included in that block.
Just like the original experiment, mining for tx fees.
Except we will be staking for tx fees.

This makes PMP unique.

Due to the distribution strategy PMP will also be scarce. No one person will have too much.
Regarding double dipping, this will be kept to a minimum by only allowing accounts with 20+ activity.
We may end up modifying the giveaway plan before we ANN though as I have some concerns.

Please do NOT send anything to the burn address yet as we are not ready to start swapping.

I took a look:  http://blockchain.premineco.in/address/1PMCxxxSWAPxxxToxxxPMPxxxXXXUfNchW

It shows only the transaction fee.... the 1 PMC went to this address: http://blockchain.premineco.in/address/169RELZjaGKcTsfN12DWDd8NADJqC4UjrE

As far as I can tell...

Way to fucking point out my mistake kbroadfoot  

I sent .0001 with a 1 PMC transaction fee (I forgot what my tx fee was set to).

I was just fine with not mentioning it and no one would have noticed had you not said anything.

Hope you are happy making me look like an ass.

[getmining.info]

Funny ^^   Was wondering how long it would take for someone to point that out

Hope all is going well and looking forward to PMP

[Bergmannx]

I still don't get why there has to be a huge giveaway or a giveaway at all. From an investor's point of view this is pure poison.
Coin's supply would had been dramatically shortend, if there was only a swap. In Your scenario there will be even more coins.

Well the idea is to attract new people and new interest to PMP. It became clear that with the current amount of users we aren't able to keep the coin alive. Rarity in itself does not mean value. Rarity combined with many users (demand) does. The new PMP still has only a few coins compared to most other coins out there.

Other coins tried this, PMC included, it never worked out.

Stop poo-pooing our ideas Bergmann.
The reasons it "never worked out" could be many, but most likely they were flawed in the "give everything away all at once" model. This is a problem that plagues most PoS coins as well. You have this huge dump of coins on the market and if the price goes up, you have 100% of the market able and in most cases willing to cash out. The same goes for if the price drops, 100% of the market is able to panic and sell.

We will continue to discuss the terms of the giveaway but you can stop shitting on our donuts now. We are giving the coins away. The only thing that will change is how we do it.

Watch Your language. I'm just warning You, that huge giveaways don't work. Ever heard of Faircoin? It was distributed to 50k addresses. It's dead now. And I don't think You are able to distribute PMP like Faircoin dev did.
Anyway, good luck.

[getmining.info]

"Shitting on our Donuts" <-- lol 

Why not a smart faucet? That only gives out very small amounts over a long time? etc, we could make it quite sophisticated.

[TheMightyX]

I still don't get why there has to be a huge giveaway or a giveaway at all. From an investor's point of view this is pure poison.
Coin's supply would had been dramatically shortend, if there was only a swap. In Your scenario there will be even more coins.

Well the idea is to attract new people and new interest to PMP. It became clear that with the current amount of users we aren't able to keep the coin alive. Rarity in itself does not mean value. Rarity combined with many users (demand) does. The new PMP still has only a few coins compared to most other coins out there.

I ask myself why PMP should be more attractive. What does PMP have what other coins don't - Except the free giveaway? Rarity alone doesn't mean anything any more. What is the difference between PMC and PMP? What is the innovation that should make PMP more valueable than PMC? And more users doesn't necessarily lead to more transactions or buying interest. Most if not all coins are backed by nothing but hot air (from mining ;-), and pump&dump).

PMP is pure POS.... the PMC is a bitcoin clone ( POW )  with 2 week difficulty retargeting...  people might stop mining it and the blockchain would freeze..

AND it is PMP... ( a slightly funny acronym )

Yes I know that PMP is pure POS. But this is not my question. In the value peak 1 PMC equaled 1.22$ after that it fell to 0.01 - 0.05 $.
I don't think that pure POS will give a coin a stable value of 1 - 2 $, which would be a market cap of about 1-2 Mill. for PMP.

Of course PMP will not have this value from the first day on but what does PMP have so it could reach this value within 1/2 or a year for example?

This is obviously a very complicated question with a very complex set of answers. None of which I can honestly say with absolute certainty.

PMP will be as unique as we make it. once implemented having a stake for fees system will make us stand out. As well we can innovate not in technology but in community and distribution. As well, there are ways we can ensure continued development. One of those ways is to use bounty funds to enact a block reward tax that goes to a development address.
For example we could take 1% of all block rewards and send them to a designated address which then pays out a certain amount to a developer or team of developers.
In this way we can ensure that we are adding and implementing new features.

This is not a tax on transactions, but a tax on the block rewards, so it will be unseen and unfelt. The best kind of tax is one that doesn't tax us directly. There are many other things we can do to set ourselves apart. One problem many coins face is that they are designed by programmers. Programmers are great at implementing the code but not necessarily the best at finding solutions to social problems. The one benefit we have is we are looking at this from the view of the community, thinking "ok what do we need as a community to succeed?". Rather than innovate for the sake of innovation, we are forced to innovate for the sake of reviving and benefiting the community.

[TheMightyX]

So do we have an exact target date for release? I thought it was going to be the beginning of this week but then wallet issues prevented that.
I'd gladly build a new website or convert the PMC website to PMP once the coin details are fully hashed out and launched.

As kbroadfoot mentioned a few times we are aiming for July 1st for the giveaway, the swap will happen before then.
The swap should start this week. Give us a bit more time for the new wallet.

Can I have access to the new wallet? and 1 PMP to test and then send back?

I want to have a paper wallet generator at launch time.

My idea is to have http://preminer.com/ for PMC and http://preminer.com/plus/ for PMP. Any comments?

I ninja-linked to it in a previous post.

New wallet is done and I've premined all the coins (muahuahua) 

Send me your PMP address and I'll send you some coins to play with.