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Author Topic: Eligius: 0% Fee BTC, 105% PPS NMC, No registration, CPPSRB  (Read 991394 times)
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M8BWNNRFMNdak68c
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January 05, 2016, 08:47:20 PM
 #4761

hmm okay ..  but now we have two contradicting statements:
1. The Shares are paid LIFO
2. Shares from a user without payment gain priority over shares from a user with continous payments.

it's hard to combine that in my mind.. wouldn't i get an advantage if i change my address contiously..
so my shares will always be older than the shares of the honest miners?

and still not clear why my 0.4 BTC are not listed in the payout queue?

but nevertheless, i think we can trust you and believe that the algorithm produces fair payments..
maybe there should just be some more documentation.. the FAQ does't speak about the priority gain though aging..
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wizkid057
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January 05, 2016, 08:57:24 PM
 #4762

hmm okay ..  but now we have two contradicting statements:
1. The Shares are paid LIFO
2. Shares from a user without payment gain priority over shares from a user with continous payments.

it's hard to combine that in my mind.. wouldn't i get an advantage if i change my address contiously..
so my shares will always be older than the shares of the honest miners?

and still not clear why my 0.4 BTC are not listed in the payout queue?

but nevertheless, i think we can trust you and believe that the algorithm produces fair payments..
maybe there should just be some more documentation.. the FAQ does't speak about the priority gain though aging..

Oh, no.  Let me clarify.

Your #1 point is correct.  #2 is a little off.

The payout queue only cares about shares already rewarded (or shares that would be rewarded if the pool found a block at that moment, but let's keep it simple).  Shares are rewarded regardless of balance/payout age to whatever address they go with from the share log LIFO.  The payout queue simply prioritizes full payouts of already rewarded shares based on balance age.  Generally the payout queue is kept to 1 block worth of payouts anyway, so this usually doesn't matter.

So, the shares that are in the share log but not yet rewarded (like the shares you submitted on the 3rd during that awful round we had) are not yet in the payout queue since a block has not been found that has rewarded them yet.

Unrewarded: In share log, but not yet earned.  Shelved shares waiting to be rewarded by a block.  No block has been found to reward these shares.  These are not owed payment by the pool.
Rewarded: A block has been found where the share was in the top 25 BTC of the share log and these shares are earned and are added to the user's balance due, and thus the balance that is used by the payout queue.  The pool owes the miner payment for these shares (assuming the block rewarding them remains valid, not orphaned/stale) per payout rules (minimum payout threshold, etc).
Paid: Paid to the miner on the blockchain.  Pool has no further obligation to these shares.

The shares you submitted on the 3rd are still unrewarded (shelved shares).

Hopefully that will clear things up.

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M8BWNNRFMNdak68c
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January 05, 2016, 09:17:04 PM
 #4763

ah i see.. we have three sepparate things we should not mix

1.
the purple graph shows the balance i definitely will get from the pool.
the green graphs shows the balance i could get someday with luck
the blue graph tells me, what value the purple graph would take, if a block would be found at that very moment.

2.
we have a CPPSRB payout scheme with a share log.. every rewarded share goes to the purple "unpaid balance" and every not yet rewarded share goes to the green "maximum reward". here we use LIFO: every time we have luck > 100%, old shares are digged out of the share log and get "rewarded shares"

3.
we have a sliding window of 6-7 blocks, called payment queue: every rewarded share will be paid out. maybe not in the actual block, but at the latest in 6 blocks. the priority here goes with payment ages. this structure is recalculated from time to time.

the last question for me: why do we have this windows of 7 blocks? i guess it might gain 25 BTC everytime a block gets orpahned? but how can it get smaller?
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January 05, 2016, 09:23:11 PM
 #4764

ah i see.. we have three sepparate things we should not mix

1.
the purple graph shows the balance i definitely will get from the pool.
the green graphs shows the balance i could get someday with luck
the blue graph tells me, what value the purple graph would take, if a block would be found at that very moment.

2.
we have a CPPSRB payout scheme.. every rewarded share goes to the purple "unpaid balance" and every not yet rewarded share goes to the green "maximum reward". here we use LIFO: every time we have luck > 100%, old shares are digged out of the share log and get "rewarded shares"

Correct.

3.
we have a sliding window of 6-7 blocks, called payment queue: every rewarded share will be paid out. maybe not in the actual block, but at latest in 6 blocks. the priority here goes with payment ages. this structure is recalculated from time to time.

the last question for me: why do we have this windows of 7 blocks? i guess it might gain 25 BTC everytime a block gets orpahned? but how can it get smaller?

Each time a block is found by the pool, one of two things happens.

Normally the block contains payouts to miners directly in the coinbase transaction.  In the case, the payout queue remains at relatively the same state (doesn't increase in size) and is normal operation since the payout queue contains estimated payout for the current round.

Sometimes things cause the pool to not have a definite payout list available to include in the coinbase transaction for one reason or another.  Generally this happens when the pool finds a block very quickly after another pool or miner finds a block and Eligius hasn't had time to build a block template that includes the full coinbase transaction yet.  Historically this is only a few % of blocks.  When this happens, the payout queue will grow by the value of that block's reward since the shares for that block have been rewarded to miners, but no payout based on that block's reward has been made yet.  Since it wasn't able to pay miners directly immediately, it pays Eligius's offline wallet and I use those funds to pay towards the payout queue once the block fully confirms and I have time to get the funds out of offline storage.  When that happens (manual payout) miners get paid and the payout queue gets reduced by the amount of the manual payout, generally back down to 1 block (the current round's estimates).

Orphaned/stale blocks don't affect the payout queue because they essentially just never happened in the eyes of the reward system (shares rewarded by a block that becomes stale/orphaned are simply unrewarded).

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M8BWNNRFMNdak68c
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January 05, 2016, 09:34:27 PM
 #4765

great. now i got it. thank you for this great lesson. maybe you should put these lines in the FAQ? so more people could read it.

i will joyfully stay at your pool.
i recommend everybody to donate some percent to the pool for the great support here!
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January 06, 2016, 07:09:37 AM
 #4766

I have always struggled to understand what that particular graph meant. Your explanation was simple and easy to understand and I thank you for it.
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January 07, 2016, 08:27:29 PM
 #4767

Just an advise to newbies, with the pool low hashrate and rising difficulty it is now time to say good bye to your green graph.
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January 07, 2016, 08:58:11 PM
 #4768

Just an advise to newbies, with the pool low hashrate and rising difficulty it is now time to say good bye to your green graph.
Newbies like you probably shouldn't be giving advice to other newbies. Pool hashrate is not relevant to earnings.

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January 08, 2016, 07:06:18 AM
 #4769

Variance is get wider, bad lucky is getting longer too. The shelved share is not going to be paid soon or ever, being a LIFO. While u are waiting for good luck... the difficulty has changed.
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January 08, 2016, 02:20:02 PM
 #4770

Hi guys,
My shares rewarded is 76.83%.. Thats very low..
Does my miner have troubles or the pool??
http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/17drDa6aL9QXBdmPMUfB6Boryk3NkQqNfm
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January 08, 2016, 02:51:11 PM
 #4771






posted this in the moving from slush thread.. seems all the public facing pools are having issues except a couple.  when i look at the fact that i cant put my farm over all these public pools and the best i can do is 95 % - fees.. Id say thats a bit of a concern for miners.  Your pool hasn't been doing that bad when compared to slush , but you do have an orphan problem! .. Another problem all pool operators have is that not all miners  understand variance.. So if i put my machine on your pool in theory you would like me to keep it there for whatever length of time it takes to find a block. whether its 1 year or 10 years .. but if i keep hopping pools due to piss poor earnings then i may end up popping a block for another pool and the one that would have made up my earnings that i took from your pool now went to another pool.. Now your out that btc.. Thus in long term it will start to show.. as some pool will get a crazy high luck %... Slush went three months in a row with less than 80% payout of expected.. So it doesn't take long before people get antsy(especially when diff is increasing 20-30% a month!).  Maybe if we start forcing miners that start from here on out to solo mine they will then appreciate what a pool can or is supposed to do.. Ill bet sales of asics would drop to near 0 then lmao..  need a bit over 172 ths now to hope to find a block in a months time(100%luck) to pay your bills.  WOW  lets not even talk about a block that takes 5 - 10 times as long.. You be in rough waters then.. Looking like barrier for entry into the bitcoin world is starting to hit the petahash mark.. Its very disheartening!

Edit well looks like i overlooked the fact that you are doing a bit worse than slush for the 26 wk and 1 year stats. seems in general you avg about 90 % expected.. which is odd that its consistent over a years time..

Edit  what if its the private pools hopping onto the public  run their machines to 100% of expected shares to find a block and if they havent found a block then put them back to their private pool. with the hopes that maybe they hit one sooner than later.(i know everyone says that you cant predict future luck with past luck..but if im expected to hit a block after x amount of shares then my chances to find one after ive submitted x amount get better over time). and you wouldnt need a ton of hash to do this .. with the amount of hash that can be easily thrown on with a flick of a switch i dont see how block with holding attacks aren't going to become more common with public facing pools.. use many small accounts together so that its not noticeable till it is too late.. or maybe never be detected . and whats worse is we dont know if its just bad luck and will turn around.... I sure wish i knew the stats of the private pools.. far as cdf and luck goes over the last year..

i feel this is a real concern and the only way i know to combat it is to go back private solo.. Any thoughts to this??


edit and one more thing  let us not forget all the obsolete hw that mined btc from pools that never found a block.. so they took from the system without every contributing so to speak.. And most are sitting now off and will never find a block.. that to must have some effect on pools..

Best Regards
d57heinz

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January 08, 2016, 10:55:51 PM
 #4772

Hi guys,
My shares rewarded is 76.83%.. Thats very low..
Does my miner have troubles or the pool??
http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/17drDa6aL9QXBdmPMUfB6Boryk3NkQqNfm

Can anyone give me an answer please??
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January 09, 2016, 04:35:48 AM
 #4773

First, a little anecdote: A child did not speak until he was four. Sitting at the dinner table, he suddenly blurts: "Pass the salt, please!".
Parents, happy and bewildered, ask: "Little Johhny, why you did not talk to us before?" Johnny says: "Before, everything was as expected".

Back to Eligius...people keep asking: why sometimes (actually, quite often to be more accurate) there is a delay in payments?

Default is 0.04 BTC, so why it (G-type payment, which, I assume, means automatic) keeps creeping up from 0.08 to 0.15 to 0.17 and now to 0.22 and still does not trigger a payment? Why can't it be like this: draw a line after each block is confirmed, then AUTOMATICALLY pay everyone who chose default and are above 0.04?
Or make 0.06 a default, i don't care about the exact number, just pay it once the default is exceeded on a confirmed block.
What can go wrong? I am curious, but maybe I am not understanding something here again.
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January 10, 2016, 02:18:56 PM
 #4774

Hi guys,
My shares rewarded is 76.83%.. Thats very low..
Does my miner have troubles or the pool??
http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/17drDa6aL9QXBdmPMUfB6Boryk3NkQqNfm

Can anyone give me an answer please??
btcmner
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January 10, 2016, 05:19:10 PM
 #4775

Hi guys,
My shares rewarded is 76.83%.. Thats very low..
Does my miner have troubles or the pool??
http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/17drDa6aL9QXBdmPMUfB6Boryk3NkQqNfm

Can anyone give me an answer please??
Apparently you've just started to mine on the pool, and you're starting in the middle of a bad luck period. Just wait it out, variance should bring back luck to better levels soon.

Mining for fun.
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January 10, 2016, 07:38:48 PM
 #4776

Hi guys,
My shares rewarded is 76.83%.. Thats very low..
Does my miner have troubles or the pool??
http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/17drDa6aL9QXBdmPMUfB6Boryk3NkQqNfm

Can anyone give me an answer please??
Apparently you've just started to mine on the pool, and you're starting in the middle of a bad luck period. Just wait it out, variance should bring back luck to better levels soon.

You are prescient, sir!  From a 29 hour round to one that was only 9 minutes (5526.2% luck!). Just had a pile of shares rewarded ... Everything is working fine.  Not that anyone needs a noob like me to tell them that. :-)
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January 12, 2016, 03:14:51 PM
 #4777

Recently most bock rewards go to the Eligius wallets instead of miners' wallets:

Those wallets already accumuleted more than 500 BTC:

The first block in the payout queue has a boundary of more than a week because of that.

What is going on?
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January 12, 2016, 03:44:41 PM
 #4778


Good question!
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January 12, 2016, 07:04:05 PM
 #4779


Relax, it's a failsafe. It just means that Wizkid will have to do a manual payout, which he does fairly regularly. The failsafe settings are pretty far to the right of paranoid, which is a good thing in this business.

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January 13, 2016, 04:47:52 AM
 #4780

I may be overthinking the payout method of the pool, I started mining yesterday and it seemed fairly straight forward but with bad luck it does not anymore. 
To make it simple, if I am mining with 1% of the pool hash rate , will I get 1% of the block?  I am asking because with Capped Pay per share it seems as though it is not really a PPS pool unless the pool luck is at close to 100% and as a miner I would get paid less than I would if I mined straight PPS or PPLNS.

I must admit I am a kano.is guy but I am having some electrical work done and using the opportunity to try out other pools.  I just cannot see how this is as profitable as others, not to mention if something happen to the pool operator he could have a very nice payday.

I am not here to crap on the thread but ask questions about the best place to use my hardware (for my protection).

Thanks in advance.

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