[ActiveMining] Official Shareholder Discussion Thread [Moderated]

[minerpart]

To Ken, if you read this please do the following:

- Make it clear on the packaging and the website that the cards need cooling and must have some amount of assembly. Do this to avoid any customers litigating based on false advertisment.
- Make sure the cards by default are not blazing at highest power that will cause high thermal stress after a year. This way the users can offer tutorials on the forum about how to reclock the cards to make them run faster.

+1

And the manual (including the website) needs to say something like:

'The chip should not be overclocked and doing so will void all warranties'.
'All assembly must be carried out by a competent and experienced PC assembler or all warranties are void'.
'All cooling must be appropriate for the chip and be applied correctly otherwise all warranties are void'
'All manufacturing defects are under warranty and faulty equipment will be replaced.'

Could a clause also be put in along the lines of:

'Faulty equipment beyond it's financial lifespan will be reimbursed at the value of it's total expected future earnings.'

In other words in a years time with a board only able to make $100 in the following 12months  (taking the cover to the 2 years max) then $100 would be paid out for the return of the equipment should it become faulty. Also returned goods are shipped at the consumers expense. This wold make the return of the equipment a waste of time for a scamming customer.

[Mabsark]

minerpart, take a look at this page.

So how does the EU rule change things?

The EU directive in question is 1999/44/EC. The full wording is contained here (open the word documtent and scroll to page 7) but the important bit is this: 'A two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU. In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.'

As with UK law, a seller is not bound by the guarantee 'if the (fault) has its origin in materials supplied by the consumer'. But the EU rule does not require the buyer to show the fault is inherent in the product and not down to their actions.

The EU rule also says buyers need to report a problem within two months of discovering it if they want to be covered under the rule.

[Bargraphics]

Alright I purchased one of these cards because I'm curious (And it went down $1,000 still making it a little high in price but much better). Let's see how long it takes to get to Florida.

Post a review when you get it!

Sure thing, I'll post some pictures and link to Eligius so you guys can all see the Hashrate. I won't be doing anything ridiculous with it, just slapping thermal paste on it, putting the Corsair i80 on, hooking it up to a Corsair 650W PSU and probably a spare laptop. I've been sent a PM that stated that they will get my order right out to me.

My main points of the review will be ease of setup and if it hashes at specified hashrate.


These are currently what I've been recommended to purchase for this card:

Corsair RM Series 650 Watt ATX/EPS 80PLUS Gold-Certified Power Supply - CP-9020054-NA RM650
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EB7UIRS/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Corsair Hydro Series Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler H80i
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009ZN03AA/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Unless I misunderstood, thermal paste will come with the card. However I know a few people with a lot of HashFast products and will ask them what type of thermal paste they recommend.

[Ozymandias2]

Alright I purchased one of these cards because I'm curious (And it went down $1,000 still making it a little high in price but much better). Let's see how long it takes to get to Florida.

Post a review when you get it!

Sure thing, I'll post some pictures and link to Eligius so you guys can all see the Hashrate. I won't be doing anything ridiculous with it, just slapping thermal paste on it, putting the Corsair i80 on, hooking it up to a Corsair 650W PSU and probably a spare laptop. I've been sent a PM that stated that they will get my order right out to me.

My main points of the review will be ease of setup and if it hashes at specified hashrate.

Do you have a Kill-a-watt or something along those lines? Power usage would be interesting as well!

[Bargraphics]

Alright I purchased one of these cards because I'm curious (And it went down $1,000 still making it a little high in price but much better). Let's see how long it takes to get to Florida.

Post a review when you get it!

Sure thing, I'll post some pictures and link to Eligius so you guys can all see the Hashrate. I won't be doing anything ridiculous with it, just slapping thermal paste on it, putting the Corsair i80 on, hooking it up to a Corsair 650W PSU and probably a spare laptop. I've been sent a PM that stated that they will get my order right out to me.

My main points of the review will be ease of setup and if it hashes at specified hashrate.

Do you have a Kill-a-watt or something along those lines? Power usage would be interesting as well!

I do not, but I'll pick one up on Amazon. I'm sure it will come in handy anyways.

Picked this one up -
P3 International P4460 Kill A Watt EZ Electricity Usage Monitor
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RGF29Q/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[klondike_bar]

it does NOT ship with cooling solution (it suggests the H80i), but has absolutely no warranty because the units are 'tested' - how can you not offer a basic warranty for a product that has an exposed chip and ask that the customer apply the heatsink/WC themselves? its begging for the chip to be scratched or the heatsink mounted poorly

In the EU, a 2 year warranty is standard regardless of what the manufacturer or reseller says.

This is true, but if the product requires user 'installation' and they fudge it, the warranty would not apply.

Warranty covers defects that lay within scope of the product design. If the product requires cooling to operate (similar to a electric kettle needing water inside so it doesn't burn out) and the user opts to not cool or install the product correctly then they lay outside the scope of the warranty.

I would urge Ken to make the demands of the product explicitly clear on the packaging AND the product description on the website. Leaving this information off of the specifications will allow the consumer to litigate based on false advertising.

your example is a bit incorrect - its more like selling a kettle that cannot handle tap water and MUST be primed and operated with reverse-osmosis water to prevent failure due to calcium scaling that could easily be caused by a careless user. (not to mention most kettles have a form of temperature or fuse fail-safe)

law tends to side with the victim, and generally views the case in a way similar to an untrained individual or child-like  naivety to determine whether fault lies with the buyer or with the seller. If this product fails catastrophically (fire) or is simply damaged (capacitor leaks or chip melts) because the 'average person' thought it was plug-and-play at a cursory glance, then most courts would enforce a warranty. Reasonable efforts to prevent this are necessary in this sort of law, which means that at a minimum there should be a big warning sticker on the chip or sealing the antistatic bag shut that says 'do not use without cooling --- website.com/how-to-cool'

[Ozymandias2]

Alright I purchased one of these cards because I'm curious (And it went down $1,000 still making it a little high in price but much better). Let's see how long it takes to get to Florida.

Post a review when you get it!

Sure thing, I'll post some pictures and link to Eligius so you guys can all see the Hashrate. I won't be doing anything ridiculous with it, just slapping thermal paste on it, putting the Corsair i80 on, hooking it up to a Corsair 650W PSU and probably a spare laptop. I've been sent a PM that stated that they will get my order right out to me.

My main points of the review will be ease of setup and if it hashes at specified hashrate.

Do you have a Kill-a-watt or something along those lines? Power usage would be interesting as well!

I do not, but I'll pick one up on Amazon. I'm sure it will come in handy anyways.

Picked this one up -
P3 International P4460 Kill A Watt EZ Electricity Usage Monitor
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RGF29Q/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks! I'm sure everyone here is excited for your review! Do you plan on overclocking and/or undervolting it as well to test the range of function?

[minerpart]

minerpart, take a look at this page.

So how does the EU rule change things?

The EU directive in question is 1999/44/EC. The full wording is contained here (open the word documtent and scroll to page 7) but the important bit is this: 'A two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU. In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.'

That's a 4 year old article and this Directive is still not de facto recognized in the UK. If you had kept on reading this same article you would have seen this:

'You may manage to get your refund on the basis of the EU directive, however, shops are within their rights to use the Sale of Goods Act as the definitive guideline instead.'

The UK's Sale of Goods Act is the definitive source here and that is not going to change, it is quoted by every retailer you could find and the UK has decided at the consumer and the legislative level to ignore the time limit stated in the EU Directive.

[Bargraphics]

Thanks! I'm sure everyone here is excited for your review! Do you plan on overclocking and/or undervolting it as well to test the range of function?

Not currently, just an out of box normal review.

[Mabsark]

Okay then, let's just pretend that EU law doesn't override UK law and let's just pretend that taking your issue to the EU courts would not see them override the UK's decision, how would this relate to a US company flaunting EU laws?

I don't even know why you're arguing about voiding warranties and such because these miners have "no warranty". It just sounds to me like you are advocating for Ken to break EU law and risk ActM getting massive fines that would destroy ActM.

This is a serious problem that Ken needs to deal with before he sells any miners.

[Ozymandias2]

Thanks! I'm sure everyone here is excited for your review! Do you plan on overclocking and/or undervolting it as well to test the range of function?

Not currently, just an out of box normal review.

Cool, I'm looking forward to it!

This is a serious problem that Ken needs to deal with before he sells any miners

So, in your opinion, would DTS's solution to underclock the miner and include a provision in the TOS that modifying the clock speed would void the warranty work?

[Mabsark]

So, in your opinion, would DTS's solution to underclock the miner and include a provision in the TOS that modifying the clock speed would void the warranty work?

If I was Ken, I'd just throw a cooler on it and treat it like a graphics card as far as warranty - modifications void it. You can't really say that though if you need to mod the product to get it to work in the first place.

[minerpart]

would DTS's solution to underclock the miner and include a provision in the TOS that modifying the clock speed would void the warranty work?

This is good advice and it would indeed void all Statutory warranties if breached. However when we get sent back a dead chip how do we prove it has been overclocked?

Someone ask the other mining companies how they deal with this issue there must be a solution that protects us.

Mabsark chill man we are all trying to come up with good ideas.

[klondike_bar]

So, in your opinion, would DTS's solution to underclock the miner and include a provision in the TOS that modifying the clock speed would void the warranty work?

If I was Ken, I'd just throw a cooler on it and treat it like a graphics card as far as warranty - modifications void it. You can't really say that though if you need to mod the product to get it to work in the first place.

it would likely require selling the product as 420GH/400W in order to be manageable with a copper heatsink and fan. You could say modification to an H80i voids warranty but can allow 20% of overclocking. (however, this simple mod woulod be employed by most buyers rendering the heatsink a waste of funds. I think clear warnings about heatsink installation would be sufficient reasonable effort in a civil (common-sense) situation.

failure rates should be pretty low, but there will always be that one person whose only tools are a tiny phillips or a pocket knife or that globs on thermal paste

[elmwar]

I've been advised that the best first step we as shareholders could make is to have the company audited by an independent third party, if necessary funded by us as a group.

I can see no reason why Ken should not allow this unless he has something to hide - it would cost the company nothing, the information would only be provided to actual shareholders and not released into the public domain. IT would prove once and for all if our situation is a result of a scam or just simple mismanagement and incompetence and would provide us with physical evidence one way or the other.  There are 3-4 members of staff that are just twiddling their thumbs at the moment and have been for the last 6 months at least, I'm sure they can find time to pull up whatever documents the auditor requires.

@Ken - will you allow an independent third party chosen by shareholders to do a full audit of the company? The shareholders will agree to collectively fund the audit and reimburse the company for any staff hours lost due to the audit.


I suggest we all continue to ask this question from Ken until we get a definitive response. If he refuses to allow this I think we have our answer as to whether or not this is an outright scam or not.

I have no problem with that; however, I don't think it is necessary as we will be releasing financials for last year by the end of the month.

Ken.  It's now April in your timezone.  You've not released financials for 2013.  We have no idea what you've done with our money.

Luckily, bitcoin is a fantastic tracking system.  You'll be able to account for every satoshi of our money (with blockchain proof).  You've already agreed to 3rd party review.  Lets make this happen.

[chsados]

Ken,

I requested a refund 3 months ago, you eventually sent me a cheque but my bank returned it because you did not sign it. I have emailed you via the store and via PM here. I need you to update my address detals and reissue the refund cheque ASAP.

Please contact me to confirm the details.

This is not the first person to say that this has happened.  That article also described another person in a similar situation.  

Ken, why is this happening?

Im not trying to start another trollfest but it seems suspicious.

[JoTheKhan]

I've been advised that the best first step we as shareholders could make is to have the company audited by an independent third party, if necessary funded by us as a group.

I can see no reason why Ken should not allow this unless he has something to hide - it would cost the company nothing, the information would only be provided to actual shareholders and not released into the public domain. IT would prove once and for all if our situation is a result of a scam or just simple mismanagement and incompetence and would provide us with physical evidence one way or the other.  There are 3-4 members of staff that are just twiddling their thumbs at the moment and have been for the last 6 months at least, I'm sure they can find time to pull up whatever documents the auditor requires.

@Ken - will you allow an independent third party chosen by shareholders to do a full audit of the company? The shareholders will agree to collectively fund the audit and reimburse the company for any staff hours lost due to the audit.


I suggest we all continue to ask this question from Ken until we get a definitive response. If he refuses to allow this I think we have our answer as to whether or not this is an outright scam or not.

I have no problem with that; however, I don't think it is necessary as we will be releasing financials for last year by the end of the month.

Ken.  It's now April in your timezone.  You've not released financials for 2013.  We have no idea what you've done with our money.

Luckily, bitcoin is a fantastic tracking system.  You'll be able to account for every satoshi of our money (with blockchain proof).  You've already agreed to 3rd party review.  Lets make this happen.

+1, If he does not release it then I am willing to donate my back log of dividends to helping pay for an external auditor. (Though it is a very small sum I'm definitely willing to throw in some more if this gets some traction).

[drawingthesun]

Someone ask the other mining companies how they deal with this issue there must be a solution that protects us.

Well Avalon and ASICMINER exit in a quasi legal state, I'm not sure if you would succeed in filing claims against them. KNC has so much money they probably don't mind refunding a card or two.

[Flashman]

To Ken, if you read this please do the following:

- Make it clear on the packaging and the website that the cards need cooling and must have some amount of assembly. Do this to avoid any customers litigating based on false advertisment.
- Make sure the cards by default are not blazing at highest power that will cause high thermal stress after a year. This way the users can offer tutorials on the forum about how to reclock the cards to make them run faster.

+1

And the manual (including the website) needs to say something like:

'The chip should not be overclocked and doing so will void all warranties'.
'All assembly must be carried out by a competent and experienced PC assembler or all warranties are void'.
'All cooling must be appropriate for the chip and be applied correctly otherwise all warranties are void'
'All manufacturing defects are under warranty and faulty equipment will be replaced.'

Could a clause also be put in along the lines of:

'Faulty equipment beyond it's financial lifespan will be reimbursed at the value of it's total expected future earnings.'

In other words in a years time with a board only able to make $100 in the following 12months  (taking the cover to the 2 years max) then $100 would be paid out for the return of the equipment should it become faulty. Also returned goods are shipped at the consumers expense. This wold make the return of the equipment a waste of time for a scamming customer.

Don't forget the $50 a minute support line in order to authorise an RMA

[Stuartuk]

Don't forget the $50 a minute support line in order to authorise an RMA

And a cassette tape of some 80's era Motley Crue for the 'you are on hold' session.