Bitcoin Forum
December 09, 2016, 06:15:56 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 [55] 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 »
  Print  
Author Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $500 — Butterflylabs, is it a scam?  (Read 116572 times)
P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 30, 2011, 12:09:32 PM
 #1081

This may not seem like a big deal to you, but it certainly is. Putting "© 2011 Butterfly Labs Inc." on the website when there is no company called Butterfly Labs Inc. is very sloppy on their part. How can they enforce that copyright if they are actually BF Labs Inc.? Furthermore, who should a customer file a lawsuit against? That's the whole point of a registered business name, and they seem to miss it completely or are doing it intentionally.

The people behind BFL seem dispersed over the US, France, and perhaps even other countries; they claim to have engineers fluent in French, Italian, Spanish and even Farsi.  It seems like sales is done from the US, but its entirely possible there is a "butterfly labs" registered elsewhere. If I were to guess, Id say the engineering is done elsewhere, and "BF labs" is only created to handle the commercialization from the US.  Quite possibly Butterfly labs exists in one of those other countries.

Thats not to say I disagree with you they should put the contact info of the legal entity you are dealing with on the website, I do find that a serious oversight, but that they may go by different names is not that weird.

BTW, it seems they registered other names too:
http://digicomlabs.com

Quote
The website clearly says: "Butterfly Labs has more than a decade of experience in FPGA & ASIC stand alone system design." To me, that's very different than saying that some people that work at this company have worked on this type of stuff for a while.

As a hypothetical assume a couple of french engineers have worked on these things for 10+ years under the name "jean marechal SPRL". Some bloke in the US wants to market their product for bitcoin and comes up with a fancier name, registers the website and does all the marketing specifically for bitcoin. Does that make the above statement incorrect? Maybe, but its not that different from AMD claiming to have 10+ years experience designing GPUs. Technically its not AMD, but ATi, but thats really semantics.

That said, its still possible Butterfly Labs as such has existed for that long somewhere in Europe, but I guess only BFL can explain that. My point is merely that its not proof of a scam, its just one of several unanswered questions.


1481264156
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481264156

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481264156
Reply with quote  #2

1481264156
Report to moderator
1481264156
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481264156

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481264156
Reply with quote  #2

1481264156
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481264156
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481264156

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481264156
Reply with quote  #2

1481264156
Report to moderator
1481264156
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481264156

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481264156
Reply with quote  #2

1481264156
Report to moderator
fizzisist
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 720



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2011, 12:21:27 PM
 #1082

My point is merely that its not proof of a scam, its just one of several unanswered questions.

You hit the nail on the head here. It's impossible to prove right now that it's a scam, just like it's impossible to prove that there isn't a god. The best we can do is speculate, and all we have to go on are these strange and inconsistent details, which DeathAndTaxes nicely summarized.

P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 30, 2011, 12:48:02 PM
 #1083

You hit the nail on the head here. It's impossible to prove right now that it's a scam, just like it's impossible to prove that there isn't a god. The best we can do is speculate, and all we have to go on are these strange and inconsistent details, which DeathAndTaxes nicely summarized.

Fair enough, but in order to make a judgment you have to wheigh those questions (which IMO are really lightweight) against the evidence that points in the other direction. To name a few, the fact those people clearly have some related technical skills, have already spent a serious amount of money on this, dont seem to hide their identities from Inaba, so far apparently have no problems refunding canceled orders etc.

When I put the risk, effort and lost opportunity against the potential profits from a scam like this; Id say its incredibly stupid. If you want to scam bitcoiners I can think of a 100 easier, safer and more lucrative ways.

fizzisist
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 720



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2011, 01:11:42 PM
 #1084

k, effort and lost opportunity against the potential profits from a scam like this; Id say its incredibly stupid. If you want to scam bitcoiners I can think of a 100 easier, safer and more lucrative ways.

I agree! That's what's so perplexing about it all. They've gone to so much trouble, but couldn't get little things like the business name right.

I'm not jumping all the way to either side of the fence yet, but there are a lot of things that don't make sense to all of this. I have the feeling that most people in this thread feel the same way. All we can do is wait and see.

bittenbob
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 560


View Profile
November 30, 2011, 01:12:44 PM
 #1085

k, effort and lost opportunity against the potential profits from a scam like this; Id say its incredibly stupid. If you want to scam bitcoiners I can think of a 100 easier, safer and more lucrative ways.

I agree! That's what's so perplexing about it all. They've gone to so much trouble, but couldn't get little things like the business name right.

I'm not jumping all the way to either side of the fence yet, but there are a lot of things that don't make sense to all of this. I have the feeling that most people in this thread feel the same way. All we can do is wait and see.

Yeah all of a sudden its a BitForce product? Are they BitForce Labs or Butterfly Labs. Im confused.
P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 30, 2011, 02:11:57 PM
 #1086

I agree! That's what's so perplexing about it all. They've gone to so much trouble, but couldn't get little things like the business name right.

Or they have several businesses (engineering and sales & marketing) with their own name, or they cant agree on the public name. Its really the kind of thing you see when a bunch of engineers start their own company and they havent hired anyone with commercial and marketing experience (or given him the authority to make those decisions). Believe it or not, Ive seen it before with a startup.

heavyb
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 217



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2011, 02:44:50 PM
 #1087

I really hope this is legit!

DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


Gerald Davis


View Profile
November 30, 2011, 02:54:20 PM
 #1088

I agree! That's what's so perplexing about it all. They've gone to so much trouble, but couldn't get little things like the business name right.

Or they have several businesses (engineering and sales & marketing) with their own name, or they cant agree on the public name. Its really the kind of thing you see when a bunch of engineers start their own company and they havent hired anyone with commercial and marketing experience (or given him the authority to make those decisions). Believe it or not, Ive seen it before with a startup.

Then when asked about corporate registration in this thread they should have indicated WHERE Butterfly Labs Inc is actually incorporated.  Calling yourself "butterfly labs" is one thing calling yourself "Butterfly Labs Inc." without an legal entity incorporated in that name (or fictitious business licenses akak DBA license) is unlawful. 
heavyb
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 217



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2011, 03:06:15 PM
 #1089

If this is legit, I would imagine it would greatly change the mining game. If it really does cost $600 for 1ghash than this will essentially force GPU mining out of the game would it not? I would probably continue to run my GPU miners since I already spent the money on them, but any additional capacity would be done with the BFL products.

What effect do you think these products would have on difficulty? Do you think it would raise difficutly because the majority of miners would add capacity with these new toys, or would they just replace the GPU mining that is already occuring?

Will the simplified technology promote the casual miners who seemed to have left with the price colapse back in? Would this in turn raise the dollar value.

If this technology IS real, I think it would open the door for a lot of questions going forward.

bittenbob
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 560


View Profile
November 30, 2011, 03:07:14 PM
 #1090

I agree! That's what's so perplexing about it all. They've gone to so much trouble, but couldn't get little things like the business name right.

Or they have several businesses (engineering and sales & marketing) with their own name, or they cant agree on the public name. Its really the kind of thing you see when a bunch of engineers start their own company and they havent hired anyone with commercial and marketing experience (or given him the authority to make those decisions). Believe it or not, Ive seen it before with a startup.

Then when asked about corporate registration in this thread they should have indicated WHERE Butterfly Labs Inc is actually incorporated.  Calling yourself "butterfly labs" is one thing calling yourself "Butterfly Labs Inc." without an legal entity incorporated in that name (or fictitious business licenses akak DBA license) is unlawful. 

Before I have said what they are doing is illegal however, who would you deal with? Clearly this is not a police matter.

I have been saying for a long time there needs to be a corporate police force. One that polices corporations and one that we can file complaints to and will actually be investigated by. Alas I am not sure such an organization exists and if they do they are so underfunded (on purpose) I am sure that they do not exist. Corporate criminals are the worst kind.
bittenbob
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 560


View Profile
November 30, 2011, 03:09:08 PM
 #1091

If this is legit, I would imagine it would greatly change the mining game. If it really does cost $600 for 1ghash than this will essentially force GPU mining out of the game would it not? I would probably continue to run my GPU miners since I already spent the money on them, but any additional capacity would be done with the BFL products.

What effect do you think these products would have on difficulty? Do you think it would raise difficutly because the majority of miners would add capacity with these new toys, or would they just replace the GPU mining that is already occuring?

Will the simplified technology promote the casual miners who seemed to have left with the price colapse back in? Would this in turn raise the dollar value.

If this technology IS real, I think it would open the door for a lot of questions going forward.

You are making the assumption that people only buy GPUs solely for mining. I bought my GPU for gaming with mining in the back of my mind. Still at $200 for roughly 400Mhash I still beat it in cost per Mhash. GPU mining will never die as long as there are gamers.
bittenbob
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 560


View Profile
November 30, 2011, 03:17:33 PM
 #1092

The main reason to buy stuff like BFL is trying to sell is because of the low electric usage. That is the main selling point.


Which is irrelevant if you live in an apartment. Also in my case my apartment gets cold in the winter so my rig doubles as an electric heater.
ngzhang
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 592


We will stand and fight.


View Profile
November 30, 2011, 03:18:07 PM
 #1093

The main reason to buy stuff like BFL is trying to sell is because of the low electric usage. That is the main selling point.


how many free power miners ? Grin

CEO of Canaan-creative, Founder of Avalon project.
https://canaan.io/
Business contact: love@canaan.io
All PMs will be unread.
sadpandatech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 30, 2011, 03:25:37 PM
 #1094

The main reason to buy stuff like BFL is trying to sell is because of the low electric usage. That is the main selling point.


Which is irrelevant if you live in an apartment. Also in my case my apartment gets cold in the winter so my rig doubles as an electric heater.

  That works great for the <10Gh people. But what about the 20, 50 or even 100Gh? That is not going to happen on free elc with GPU..  Atleast not on any scale that would impact global hash..

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
Inaba
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2011, 03:28:41 PM
 #1095

The point of this is absolutely about the power, not about the rate.  The rate is really irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.  If these were half the price with half the potential hashrate at 20w, it would still be a good product, simply because the W:MH ratio would be so low.

Yes, there are some people that are mining with "free" electricity, but the majority of miners pay in some fashion for electricity.  Being able to achieve the same hashrate at 1/5th or better the power consumption is a major selling point and puts your "magic number" much, much lower than mining with GPUs.

You can effectively discount the minuscule portion of miners that have free electricity, as their aggregate hashrate is likely within any margin of error of the global hashrate estimate.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
bittenbob
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 560


View Profile
November 30, 2011, 03:42:22 PM
 #1096

The main reason to buy stuff like BFL is trying to sell is because of the low electric usage. That is the main selling point.


Which is irrelevant if you live in an apartment. Also in my case my apartment gets cold in the winter so my rig doubles as an electric heater.

  That works great for the <10Gh people. But what about the 20, 50 or even 100Gh? That is not going to happen on free elc with GPU..  Atleast not on any scale that would impact global hash..

I think corporate level mining like that goes against what Bitcoin stands for anyways. The idea is to decentralize so that not one party holds all the cards. A bunch of low level miners (GPU miners such as myself) are better for bitcoin in the long run. I would actually be curious to find out how much % of the global hashing are from people such as myself and corporate level miners such as goat (no offence). I think those that do it at that level are taking a much higher gamble and I just wouldn't advise it.
P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 30, 2011, 03:50:29 PM
 #1097

I have a poll on "free" electricity mining and farm size here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=52756.0

Much too few responses to draw firm conclusions but it may give an idea.

DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


Gerald Davis


View Profile
November 30, 2011, 03:51:56 PM
 #1098

The main reason to buy stuff like BFL is trying to sell is because of the low electric usage. That is the main selling point.


Which is irrelevant if you live in an apartment. Also in my case my apartment gets cold in the winter so my rig doubles as an electric heater.

  That works great for the <10Gh people. But what about the 20, 50 or even 100Gh? That is not going to happen on free elc with GPU..  Atleast not on any scale that would impact global hash..

I think corporate level mining like that goes against what Bitcoin stands for anyways. The idea is to decentralize so that not one party holds all the cards. A bunch of low level miners (GPU miners such as myself) are better for bitcoin in the long run. I would actually be curious to find out how much % of the global hashing are from people such as myself and corporate level miners such as goat (no offence). I think those that do it at that level are taking a much higher gamble and I just wouldn't advise it.

There is decentralized and then there is decentralized.  VISA is centralized because it is a single entity which sets the rules.
If Bitcoin mining was done by 100 or so high wealth individuals and corporations it may be more centralized than today (maybe not if they all "solo" mined) but it would still be massive less centralized than say VISA or Paypal.

As time goes on mining will become a smaller and smaller margin business.  Looking forward 20 or 30 years most users will not be mining.  They will be users of the system not miners.  That is an inevitability.

Lots of people buy Gold coins almost nobody mines their own gold.  I would say global gold mining is decentralized given no company controls more than about 10% of annual production.  Still 90% of production is done by 20 or so companies.
bittenbob
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 560


View Profile
November 30, 2011, 04:28:30 PM
 #1099

The main reason to buy stuff like BFL is trying to sell is because of the low electric usage. That is the main selling point.


Which is irrelevant if you live in an apartment. Also in my case my apartment gets cold in the winter so my rig doubles as an electric heater.

  That works great for the <10Gh people. But what about the 20, 50 or even 100Gh? That is not going to happen on free elc with GPU..  Atleast not on any scale that would impact global hash..

I think corporate level mining like that goes against what Bitcoin stands for anyways. The idea is to decentralize so that not one party holds all the cards. A bunch of low level miners (GPU miners such as myself) are better for bitcoin in the long run. I would actually be curious to find out how much % of the global hashing are from people such as myself and corporate level miners such as goat (no offence). I think those that do it at that level are taking a much higher gamble and I just wouldn't advise it.

No offense taken, but I am not really corporate. I did a few weeks ago start selling shares in a company I just formed but I did the 10 GHash/S as a hobby and because I believe in bitcoin. I am selling no more than 30% of my company and am only selling so I can support the Global Bitcoin Stock Exchange. I am doing this as a hobby, soon I hope to be selling gold and silver over GLBSE as well. Computers and Business is where my main interests are in. Bitcoin is my sorta game. I have spent 1000's of hours setting up my rigs and getting things right and could have made more money doing other things. I just want to get into the bitcoin business world first. I have a good reputation so far and hope to keep this up.

I am not the only person who runs 10Ghash/S plus just for the hell of it.




I just used the word corporate for the lack of a better word. I am sure if I made enough on mining and was into it I would reinvest into hardware. The fact you are selling shares to your company kind of proves my point though lol. It takes massive investment and Im just not sure thats what the creator(s) had in mind when they created. 10 Ghash could be done by 1 person but not 100Ghash. At least not without being partially insane lol.
P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 30, 2011, 04:31:25 PM
 #1100

I have spent 1000's of hours setting up my rigs and getting things right



Pages: « 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 [55] 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!