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Author Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $500 — Butterflylabs, is it a scam?  (Read 116561 times)
bulanula
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November 07, 2011, 09:32:42 PM
 #241

i was told i will be banned by an admin of this site unless i put up $10,000 in escrow. please trust the other kc member who runs eclipse mc mining as i am about to be banned.

i would give 10k to a trusted escrow site but i wont give $10 to the admin "maged" who will ban me!

I think you mean Inaba guy ?
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P4man
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November 07, 2011, 09:46:26 PM
 #242

Place your bet here goat:
http://betsofbitco.in/

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November 07, 2011, 09:52:37 PM
 #243

You can create your own bets.

RandyFolds
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November 07, 2011, 10:11:05 PM
 #244

You can create your own bets.

Who would trust that site to hold $20,000 and still be there when the score is settled? Wordpress ftw.

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P4man
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November 07, 2011, 10:19:08 PM
 #245

Yeah, I wouldnt bet $20.000 there either (or anywhere else for that matter), but Id be surprised Goat would actually put up 100 BTC, let alone 1000 or 10000 and I suspect the butterfly lab guys will gladly match a few 100. Well worth the risk IMO.

Anyway, Ill formulate a bet. How is this as bet:

The Butterfly Labs "Bitforce miner" shown here:
http://butterflylabs.com/
is just a scam, not a real product under development.

Butterfly Labs will not ship a single self designed bitcoin mining "bitforce 256" product in the next 6 months to paying customers

If they ship a single BitForce SHA256 board to a paying customer within this time, and its verified to produce more than 500MH/s while consuming less than 50 Watt, the above statement is deemed false, and Butterfly labs is not a scam.

Butterfly labs will also not let anyone independently verify their custom hardware is real and works. If they do let someone independent, recommended by bitcointalk forum, test and verify their claims, and this person acknowledges the hardware is real and produces results that are roughly inline with the performance claims made on Butterfly's website, it is also not considered a scam and this statement is considered false.



Yes, i cut their projections by half, underdelivering on promises is not the same as being a scam.

ElectricMucus
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November 07, 2011, 11:03:03 PM
 #246

Well, it could just be a fancy fpga miner, delivering a fraction of the said performance, but I would still consider myself scammed if I were a paying costumer.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
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November 07, 2011, 11:10:53 PM
 #247

Show me a fancy FPGA solution that provides >1 MH/$ (and better than 10MH/W). If you call that a scam, I want to be scammed Smiley

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November 07, 2011, 11:19:21 PM
 #248

Show me a fancy FPGA solution that provides >1 MH/$ (and better than 10MH/W). If you call that a scam, I want to be scammed Smiley

The greater than 10MH/W is easy.  Ztek's current board pushes 190MW using 8.5W so that is ~22MH/W.  As far are 1 MH/$.  If it gets 50% of their claimed performance it would be $1 per MH for pre-orders and $1.20 per MH for regular orders which would be good but not amazing performance for FPGA.

I would say it is a scam if they don't deliver the performance claimed.
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November 07, 2011, 11:29:01 PM
 #249

The greater than 10MH/W is easy.  Ztek's current board pushes 190MW using 8.5W so that is ~22MH/W.  

I know, its just to make sure they wouldnt sell a GPU based solution, which could easily achieve 1MH/$, but at far higher power consumption obviously.

Quote
As far are 1 MH/$.  If it gets 50% of their claimed performance it would be $1 per MH for pre-orders and $1.20 per MH for regular orders which would be good but not amazing performance for FPGA.

I would say it is a scam if they don't deliver the performance claimed.

If Butterfly wants to take the bet with the performance as currentlyclaimed, thats their choice, but assuming they havent gotten their software ready and fully optimized yet, think its fair to give them some leeway without labeling it a scam. Remember, half this thread is about fake photo's, non existing business registration what not. If it turns out everything is legit but they miss their performance estimates by 20% or whatever, thats something entirely different as them never shipping a single product and running of with the money never to be heard of again (which is what most here expected).

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November 07, 2011, 11:32:38 PM
 #250

The greater than 10MH/W is easy.  Ztek's current board pushes 190MW using 8.5W so that is ~22MH/W.  

I know, its just to make sure they wouldnt sell a GPU based solution, which could easily achieve 1MH/$, but at far higher power consumption obviously.

Quote
As far are 1 MH/$.  If it gets 50% of their claimed performance it would be $1 per MH for pre-orders and $1.20 per MH for regular orders which would be good but not amazing performance for FPGA.

I would say it is a scam if they don't deliver the performance claimed.

If Butterfly wants to take the bet with the performance as currentlyclaimed, thats their choice, but assuming they havent gotten their software ready and fully optimized yet, think its fair to give them some leeway without labeling it a scam. Remember, half this thread is about fake photo's, non existing business registration what not. If it turns out everything is legit but they miss their performance estimates by 20% or whatever, thats something entirely different as them never shipping a single product and running of with the money never to be heard of again (which is what most here expected).


A lot would depend on how far off their claims our.  If company doesn't know the performance they shouldn't report the performance but I agree any product is better than just disappearing with the cash.   Then again I doubt we will be seeing a product.
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November 07, 2011, 11:36:03 PM
 #251

  Why'd my picture of 'Ninja Queen' get removed?  It was a publicly posted pic of theirs and was posted here to show that there was someone in a 'professional' looking environment working on BFL components....

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
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November 08, 2011, 12:00:46 AM
 #252

  Why'd my picture of 'Ninja Queen' get removed?  It was a publicly posted pic of theirs and was posted here to show that there was someone in a 'professional' looking environment working on BFL components....

I was wondering this too... it was from off their website...

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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November 08, 2011, 12:43:23 AM
 #253

I'll escrow any bets, if anyone wants. 

BFL just has to give me the word and I'll test a unit out the same day, both on the live pool and on my development site which is not open to the internet (and thus couldn't be pulling any hanky panky as far as hashrate goes.)  If it delivers anywhere close under those conditions, I'd say it's pretty conclusive. 



If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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November 08, 2011, 12:51:59 AM
 #254

underdelivering on promises is not the same as being a scam.

Yeah, it is. Maybe not in every case, but with regards to a product that fails to perform to advertised standards, it most definitely is.

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November 08, 2011, 06:06:25 AM
 #255

I will pay 10% of any ones costs to buy any of this guys products just for the fucking lulz.

This means for you dumb asses who might buy this shit, I will give you 10% back if you prove you buy his product in this thread!

I will pay in bitcoin!!!! buy buy buy!!!!

put up or shut the fuck up

send $51.70 in bitcoin to: 1JEwBWFzoeTBb5D6uamF4UMSVLhgb3wfgJ

i'm waiting.

| In Default we Trust | Need gold/silver for btc? | Buy bitcoins |
ydenys
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November 08, 2011, 06:09:52 AM
 #256

Whatever the outcome of this interesting thread - there is a simple truth most of you are ignoring. The current mining landscape would not be changed much (if at all) by such a product (unless sold far below manufacturing costs, which is highly improbable). The most current dedicated (non-bot) miners are from Russia/Eastern Europe/ex-USSR, and are, frankly, artless opportunistic criminals (the worst sort IMO). They use streetlight/communal blocks’/schools’/gov. buildings’/etc. electricity due to lax laws/detection/enforcement/etc. and the only entry barrier for them is getting high hash rate hardware. (just check adoption levels/deepbit’s teams/IP spectre/ exchange use/sell off rates/etc.) As it stands, a specialised mining product with no other use and <considerably> lower resale value than a graphics card would not be an attractive investment for those individuals, but only for less than a quarter of total miners, who are in fact ‘legit’ (want to/believe in the idea for whatever reason, but with consequences). Out of those, i’d think, only half can really afford such a setup, regardless of investment considerations/bitcoin price. So all-in-all scam or not – this is nothing to be so excited about.
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November 08, 2011, 07:19:26 AM
 #257

Yeah, it is. Maybe not in every case, but with regards to a product that fails to perform to advertised standards, it most definitely is.

No it isnt, not for an unreleased product. There are a million ways butterfly labs could handle it, by offering rebates or refunds.  But think about it, how many people do you think would cancel their preorder if this turns out to be real, but with 10% lower than projected performance? My guess: no one. Im pretty sure most will in fact order more,  thats how scammed they would feel. Lets keep in mind, if BFL only  achieve 50% of their claimed performance at double the powerconsumption, this will still be about the best mining product in the market. It would be nonsensical for BFL to undermine (no pun intended) their credibility by deliberately overpromising like that, if they are indeed actually sitting on by far the best product in the market. It makes no sense. 

So either butterfly labs is a real scam and has nothing (or a 486 under that heatsink with bogus software making fake proofs), or they are legit. Something inbetween, like were I drew the line for the bet,  just is not  gonna happen.

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November 08, 2011, 07:37:36 AM
 #258

The most current dedicated (non-bot) miners are from Russia/Eastern Europe/ex-USSR, and are, frankly, artless opportunistic criminals (the worst sort IMO). They use streetlight/communal blocks’/schools’/gov. buildings’/etc. electricity due to lax laws/detection/enforcement/etc. and the only entry barrier for them is getting high hash rate hardware. (just check adoption levels/deepbit’s teams/IP spectre/ exchange use/sell off rates/etc.)

Evidence? (more specific than the "just check" bit, which sounds interesting but vague)

To mine you need both electricity and a network connection.  I don't think a streetlight is going to cut it unless it happens to be right outside the window of your house... in which case the odds of getting noticed might be low, but the personal consequences are a lot higher than simply having your gear confiscated.  Same goes for mining at a university you attend or office building of the entity you work for.

I mean, I'm sure this happens all over the place on a one-or-two-GPU-per-site basis, but I just can't imagine the risk/reward calculation making sense for serious multi-gigahash installations.

The printing press heralded the end of the Dark Ages and made the Enlightenment possible, but it took another three centuries before any country managed to put freedom of the press beyond the reach of legislators.  So it may take a while before cryptocurrencies are free of the AML-NSA-KYC surveillance plague.
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November 08, 2011, 08:52:24 AM
 #259

Why not let everyone have some fun betting this? Im creating the bet, and as a start Ill bet a whopping one bitcoin on this being legit Wink
You will earn more if you bet early, so Im sure you will gladly put 100 BTC against mine and others are free to join if they are certain this is a scam (or isnt)
.
IF BFL is unwilling to match those bets, I think you will have proven your point and whatever you bet ought to be a safe win.

Ill post the bet when my transaction clears. Since I cant vouch for the betting site being safe, I recommend people not bet large sums of money. Lets keep it fun.

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November 08, 2011, 10:12:15 AM
 #260

Everyone knows that ASICs and FPGAs are coming and are going to change the game. These guys are the first ones out the door with a nice clean package (not to detract from the other projects, but they all look like experiments in progress). It is a must buy at that price. 20 - yes, twenty - 10+10 - 5+5+5+5 watts. That beats the hell out of the 670w that I am drawing from the wall for the same speed. You do understand that electricity is the prohibitive cost in mining, right?
Well, it has a payback period of 7 months at current prices if I'm doing my calculations right, so if you're still mining and you're sure it'll still be worth mining in a year it makes sense. (Remember that unlike a GPU you're probably not going to be able to sell these second-hand should the bottom drop out of the mining market.) If the price was 4 times what they're charging it'd be more expensive than the X6500 boards for the hashrate you get and have a payback time of over 2 years, by which point Bitcoin may be dead or such a wild success that new generations of FPGA or ASIC have driven down your profitability.

Quad XC6SLX150 Board: 860 MHash/s or so.
SIGS ABOUT BUTTERFLY LABS ARE PAID ADS
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