Bitcoin Forum
December 04, 2016, 10:39:34 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 [44] 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 »
  Print  
Author Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $500 — Butterflylabs, is it a scam?  (Read 116492 times)
legolouman
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448


Decent Programmer to boot!


View Profile
November 26, 2011, 10:34:21 PM
 #861

Not only have they not demoed a working miner. They also demoed a miner, plugged into a computer, and powered up, but not connected to the open mining software.

If you love me, you'd give me a Satoshi!
BTC - 1MSzGKh5znbrcEF2qTrtrWBm4ydH5eT49f
LTC - LYeJrmYQQvt6gRQxrDz66XTwtkdodx9udz
1480891174
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480891174

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480891174
Reply with quote  #2

1480891174
Report to moderator
1480891174
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480891174

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480891174
Reply with quote  #2

1480891174
Report to moderator
1480891174
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480891174

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480891174
Reply with quote  #2

1480891174
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1480891174
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480891174

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480891174
Reply with quote  #2

1480891174
Report to moderator
malevolent
can into space
Staff
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624



View Profile
November 26, 2011, 11:06:35 PM
 #862

Quote
Find us at

Address: 25E 12th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
United States of America
Phone: 816 226 6966
Fax: 816 226 6966
e-mail: contact@butterflylabs.com
Skype: butterflylabs

Anyone from Kansas or around could verify this 'company'?
Raoul Duke
aka psy
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1442



View Profile
November 26, 2011, 11:27:20 PM
 #863

Quote
Find us at

Address: 25E 12th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
United States of America
Phone: 816 226 6966
Fax: 816 226 6966
e-mail: contact@butterflylabs.com
Skype: butterflylabs

Anyone from Kansas or around could verify this 'company'?

WTF
lol?

Turbor
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1008


BitMinter


View Profile WWW
November 26, 2011, 11:29:42 PM
 #864

 Cheesy wheres Inaba ?!

sadpandatech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 26, 2011, 11:30:54 PM
 #865

Quote
Find us at

Address: 25E 12th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
United States of America
Phone: 816 226 6966
Fax: 816 226 6966
e-mail: contact@butterflylabs.com
Skype: butterflylabs

Anyone from Kansas or around could verify this 'company'?

WTF
lol?
 Hehe, what your friend Psy here meant to say was, "This has been covered to death in this thread already" and furthermore, "They have met with Inaba who lives in the area last night, also covered in this thread." ;p


If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 26, 2011, 11:32:34 PM
 #866

Die shrink will ultimately delivery 2x the performance both per $ and per Watt.  That is the whole reason for die shrinks.   Grin  

Per dollar, hmm  you should get ~twice the transistor density, so for a given size you would get twice the performance, but thats ignoring the exponential higher fixed costs for these new process nodes. Just compare wafer prices at 65nm with 40/45nm at TSMC. Good luck getting 2x better performance per $!.

Per watt, 2x from just a shrink is more than just optimistic. In reality its always a lot less, and its not likely anything like moving to s-asic (particularly with little to no IO and RAM):


Sorry, an extra process shrink just isnt going to make up for that.

sadpandatech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 26, 2011, 11:32:53 PM
 #867

Cheesy wheres Inaba ?!

  Ayee, maybe they kidnapped him so he couldn't reveal their evil scam. ;p  Or he could have gotten a unit and is too busy drooling over it to report in.

  Inabaaaa

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
Inaba
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile WWW
November 26, 2011, 11:38:59 PM
 #868

As I said yesterday, we'd either be doing the demo Saturday or Sunday.  Right now, we have it planned for Sunday evening here in CST, probably around 18:00.  I've been pretty swamped today, but tomorrow is mostly open.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
sadpandatech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 26, 2011, 11:49:51 PM
 #869

As I said yesterday, we'd either be doing the demo Saturday or Sunday.  Right now, we have it planned for Sunday evening here in CST, probably around 18:00.  I've been pretty swamped today, but tomorrow is mostly open.

  Thanks for the updates. So what is the demo plan exactly? Are they coming to your place with a unit or two to demo them?

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
bulanula
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518



View Profile
November 27, 2011, 12:19:54 AM
 #870

Thank you for the updates Inaba. Hope you stay out of the "dark side" Grin and avoid the temptation.

Looking forward to Sunday 18:00.
Inaba
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile WWW
November 27, 2011, 12:37:19 AM
 #871

The demo plan is that I will:

A) connect it to a non-routable development side of the pool, so that the box is unable to communicate with the internet.  I will then let it submit shares to the pool and I will have one of the getwork servers in debug mode and I will see what is sent out and what's sent back.  As I found no evidence of any wireless communications on the board, and since the computer it's connected to will not be on the internet, it won't have any way of falsifying the shares submitted.

B) I will take a unit home that evening, disassemble and take more robust pictures.  I will NOT be removing any heat sinks, however. 

C) I will do further testing that evening on my own with a packet analyzer to see  what packets are being transmitted, when and where they are going and coming from.

That's the plan as of right now, at any rate.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
worldinacoin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 658



View Profile WWW
November 27, 2011, 12:42:52 AM
 #872

The demo plan is that I will:

A) connect it to a non-routable development side of the pool, so that the box is unable to communicate with the internet.  I will then let it submit shares to the pool and I will have one of the getwork servers in debug mode and I will see what is sent out and what's sent back.  As I found no evidence of any wireless communications on the board, and since the computer it's connected to will not be on the internet, it won't have any way of falsifying the shares submitted.

B) I will take a unit home that evening, disassemble and take more robust pictures.  I will NOT be removing any heat sinks, however. 

C) I will do further testing that evening on my own with a packet analyzer to see  what packets are being transmitted, when and where they are going and coming from.

That's the plan as of right now, at any rate.


Appreciated your efforts, waiting to see the results Smiley
sadpandatech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 27, 2011, 12:46:24 AM
 #873

The demo plan is that I will:

A) connect it to a non-routable development side of the pool, so that the box is unable to communicate with the internet.  I will then let it submit shares to the pool and I will have one of the getwork servers in debug mode and I will see what is sent out and what's sent back.  As I found no evidence of any wireless communications on the board, and since the computer it's connected to will not be on the internet, it won't have any way of falsifying the shares submitted.

B) I will take a unit home that evening, disassemble and take more robust pictures.  I will NOT be removing any heat sinks, however. 

C) I will do further testing that evening on my own with a packet analyzer to see  what packets are being transmitted, when and where they are going and coming from.

That's the plan as of right now, at any rate.


  A) Sounds awesome. I had not given much thought to the idea of being able to falsify shares with remote means as well as onboard. Thats pretty thorough methodology you have detailed and for thinking of such possibilities.

  B) rock on, the ones you've shown so far are not bad. They certainly give the impression that the PCB is not as cheap as one would think either. Any insight on the etched out portion?

  C) very nice to hear!

  Hopefully they toss a few units your way for your time. As excited as some are of the prospect of a review/demo it ultimatly only benefits them.. =)


   Cheers

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
runeks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924



View Profile WWW
November 27, 2011, 01:03:04 AM
 #874

[...] This thing looks to be seriously overdesigned! If they'd just added a cheap Ethernet PHY and port, it would have more than enough processing grunt to connect directly to a pool by itself and mine standalone with no computer.
As far as I can tell that would require a lot more software work. Like building a program for the Atmel chip that fetches work. I think this would, somewhat, be a waste of time, as this is what ckolivas has spent so much time perfecting with cgminer. Also, is there a TCP/IP implementation for this Atmel chip even? Or how'd they actually send packets with the PHY, let alone run a mining application on the board?
gmaxwell
Staff
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2016



View Profile
November 27, 2011, 01:19:15 AM
 #875

The demo plan is that I will:
A) connect it to a non-routable development side of the pool, so that the box is unable to communicate with the internet.  I will then let it submit shares to the pool and I will have one of the getwork servers in debug mode and I will see what is sent out and what's sent back.  As I found no evidence of any wireless communications on the board, and since the computer it's connected to will not be on the internet, it won't have any way of falsifying the shares submitted.
B) I will take a unit home that evening, disassemble and take more robust pictures.  I will NOT be removing any heat sinks, however.  
C) I will do further testing that evening on my own with a packet analyzer to see  what packets are being transmitted, when and where they are going and coming from.
That's the plan as of right now, at any rate.

Please make sure at some point during the actual mining you run it on a power meter so you can get a measurement under actual mining load.

There are various ways to fake this sort of thing and match one of {rate,power} but not both. (e.g. you could use a big-fast-expensive FPGA to get 1GH/s, but if they did that they couldn't deliver on their advertised price)
P4man
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
November 27, 2011, 01:27:01 AM
 #876

Just to make sure the conspiracy theorists run out of ideas.. assuming they have several units, will they let you choose a unit at random?

runeks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924



View Profile WWW
November 27, 2011, 01:38:19 AM
 #877

IMO it's a bit pointless to try to prove, with the demonstration, that BFL didn't pack the board with some expensive chips to make it look like they achieved the $/MH figure they did. Only with time will we get more and more certain whether this is the case or not.

Conspiracy theorists will never run out of ideas. Undecided
eldentyrell
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966


felonious vagrancy, personified


View Profile WWW
November 27, 2011, 02:07:08 AM
 #878

it seems a little silly since that knowledge will become public, assuming they hit their target ship dates

Nah, they've probably removed any silkscreening on the tops of the chips.  Bet they're blank underneath.  Don't count on learning anything from removing the heatsinks.  If they don't want you to know what used to be silkscreened there, it's only going to cost them a few pennies worth of solvent and about five seconds of additional assembly time.

The printing press heralded the end of the Dark Ages and made the Enlightenment possible, but it took another three centuries before any country managed to put freedom of the press beyond the reach of legislators.  So it may take a while before cryptocurrencies are free of the AML-NSA-KYC surveillance plague.
runeks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924



View Profile WWW
November 27, 2011, 02:12:36 AM
 #879

For future reference, what is the best method to use for removing heatsinks that have been attached with thermal glue (instead of using thermal grease and holding them on with screws)?
If they used a good epoxy adhesive, you might never get them off. At least not without breaking the chips.
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
November 27, 2011, 02:20:44 AM
 #880

[...] This thing looks to be seriously overdesigned! If they'd just added a cheap Ethernet PHY and port, it would have more than enough processing grunt to connect directly to a pool by itself and mine standalone with no computer.
As far as I can tell that would require a lot more software work. Like building a program for the Atmel chip that fetches work. I think this would, somewhat, be a waste of time, as this is what ckolivas has spent so much time perfecting with cgminer. Also, is there a TCP/IP implementation for this Atmel chip even? Or how'd they actually send packets with the PHY, let alone run a mining application on the board?

Not to mention network equipment is a lot more expensive than USB hubs/cables if you want to run a cluster of them.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 [44] 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!