1GH/s, 20w, $500 — Butterflylabs, is it a scam?

[bittenbob]

Surprise, surprise. Another delay in the demo. I will be surprised if they actually are able to show inaba it working. In the meantime I wonder if they got any 26k orders for the big box.

True.

Legitimate software NEVER ships with bugs.  There can be NO DOUBT the Butterfly Single IS a SCAM!

DO NOT spend your money on the scammer widgits.

It just seems too convenient that they are having problems getting it to work and keep on pushing back a working demo.

[1714498154]

1714498154

[fred0]

Surprise, surprise. Another delay in the demo. I will be surprised if they actually are able to show inaba it working. In the meantime I wonder if they got any 26k orders for the big box.

True.

Legitimate software NEVER ships with bugs.  There can be NO DOUBT the Butterfly Single IS a SCAM!

DO NOT spend your money on the scammer widgits.

It just seems too convenient that they are having problems getting it to work and keep on pushing back a working demo.

New hardware, new software,  Primary development was done on Windows. Inaba's laptop probably was running ubuntu(if the same as photo). I'm willing to give BFL the benefit of the doubt, we should have a clearer idea in a few days.

[RandyFolds]

This is just too friggin': (choose all that apply) unbelievable/ridiculous/scammy/unprofessional/amateur/scammy/scammy/scammy/disappointing.

They don't have one single prototype working to show Inaba? Goodness.

e: amendment to list to reflect sentiments below.

[fred0]

This is just too friggin': (choose all that apply) unbelievable/ridiculous/scammy/unprofessional/amateur/scammy/scammy/scammy.

They don't have one single prototype working to show Inaba? Goodness.

Agreed, that's why I suspect it is a software issue.  What good is the hardware without software to recognize it?

I was jazzed up to see performance numbers tonight, but I can wait to resolve the inevitable glitch.

Disappointed, but I understand.

[bittenbob]

Surprise, surprise. Another delay in the demo. I will be surprised if they actually are able to show inaba it working. In the meantime I wonder if they got any 26k orders for the big box.

True.

Legitimate software NEVER ships with bugs.  There can be NO DOUBT the Butterfly Single IS a SCAM!

DO NOT spend your money on the scammer widgits.

It just seems too convenient that they are having problems getting it to work and keep on pushing back a working demo.

New hardware, new software,  Primary development was done on Windows. Inaba's laptop probably was running ubuntu(if the same as photo). I'm willing to give BFL the benefit of the doubt, we should have a clearer idea in a few days.

Im sure Inaba could have put windows on there and im sure OS would have been discussed as they were planning a demo. Yes it could be a bug but I still find it awfully suspicious and convenient. How could they know precisely the MH/s and power consumption if it has never been running? Sometimes things dont work as well as planned you know

[chungenhung]

2. should we be scared ? I certainly am.

No.  Even w/ GPU one can 51% attack the network w/ roughly 20M invested.  This brings the cost closer to 10M (be sure to include labor, warehouse space, electricity, cooling, security, etc).

It simply isn't worth it for someone to spend that kind of money to destroy Bitcoin.  20M or 10M.  If/when Bitcoin becomes larger the network will hopefully be even larger thus as the potential of Bitcoin rises the cost to destroy it rises also.

No blockchain will ever be immune to the threats of governments.  Even if the cost is $100M it is "nothing".  The US has wasted something like $500,000 million on the three decade long failed war on drugs and almost $1,00,000 million on the war against terror.  (Side note wars against nouns are usually futile).

The point of the high cost of a block chain is to make it ECONOMICALLY NONVIABLE for an attacker to spend the amount of money necessary to destroy the network.  It isn't a magic gain auto and unlimited immunity against every govt on the planet.

Sure, the Gov can always spend money at will. The US gov simply has to print more money. I am sure $10M is nothing since the gov has already printed trillions

[fred0]

Surprise, surprise. Another delay in the demo. I will be surprised if they actually are able to show inaba it working. In the meantime I wonder if they got any 26k orders for the big box.

True.

Legitimate software NEVER ships with bugs.  There can be NO DOUBT the Butterfly Single IS a SCAM!

DO NOT spend your money on the scammer widgits.

It just seems too convenient that they are having problems getting it to work and keep on pushing back a working demo.

New hardware, new software,  Primary development was done on Windows. Inaba's laptop probably was running ubuntu(if the same as photo). I'm willing to give BFL the benefit of the doubt, we should have a clearer idea in a few days.

Im sure Inaba could have put windows on there and im sure OS would have been discussed as they were planning a demo. Yes it could be a bug but I still find it awfully suspicious and convenient. How could they know precisely the MH/s and power consumption if it has never been running? Sometimes things dont work as well as planned you know

Yes, which is why I am anxious to see real numbers.

Yes, the world is full of scammers.  They don't care a whit about anybody but themselves(Bernie Madoff).  I think we make a poor club to take advantage.  Fairly highly educated, skeptical, and fairly communicative. How long could a scam last?

Would pre-orders for the rig box take off if it is determined that the singles are fraudulent? Scam over, man.

All in all, software defects DO happen, and I am not happy it happened tonight, but I am sure the BFL people are even less happy.

So while we still have our life savings, let's wait a couple of days and see how it goes.

[gmaxwell]

Sure, the Gov can always spend money at will. The US gov simply has to print more money. I am sure $10M is nothing since the gov has already printed trillions

Sure but there are cheaper ways to screw up bitcoin .. declare using it and mining it illegal and punishable by death.  Free attention from the press— say its a childpornterrorist tool—, a couple helicopters with flir, a few raids, some additional proposed legislation in a few more friendly countries, and a public execution or two and the bitcoin security is gone _real quick_ ... and not even a million bucks spent.  No fussy costly and highly public technical attacks that are going to result in civil litigation and might by thwarted counter measures that risk making the powers that be look incompetent.... just the core tools of authority: ink on paper and jackbooted thugs, tried and proven.  ("Goverment builds $10m building bitcoin busting ASIC farm, bitcoiner's change one value in their POW algorithm and do a network wide updated and the $10m farm is worthless", a counter measure we won't have forever but it's one we'll have up until the good guys are using asic/sasic in mass)

The long term security of bitcoin depends on it being to unimportant, uninteresting, and unconventional for that kind of adversary to bother with it.. until such a time as bitcoin is too important for them to afford and beloved to afford messing with it. If you look at how slowly most large institutions have adapted to technology this outcome doesn't seem unlikely.

Bitcoin isn't all negatives for the status-quo authorities— it should increase economic efficiency, and it removes the unfortunate attraction of printing money which all politicians hate (or at least hate when its for someone elses program) but almost universally can't resist when its for their own programs—... and if the public at large wants it, suppressing it would look bad indeed and wouldn't work out well in places that claim to have freedom.

[fred0]

Sure, the Gov can always spend money at will. The US gov simply has to print more money. I am sure $10M is nothing since the gov has already printed trillions

Sure but there are cheaper ways to screw up bitcoin .. declare using it and mining it illegal and punishable by death.  Free attention from the press— say its a childpornterrorist tool—, a couple helicopters with flir, a few raids, some additional proposed legislation in a few more friendly countries, and a public execution or two and the bitcoin security is gone _real quick_ ... and not even a million bucks spent.  No fussy costly and highly public technical attacks that are going to result in civil litigation and might by thwarted counter measures that risk making the powers that be look incompetent.... just the core tools of authority: ink on paper and jackbooted thugs, tried and proven.  ("Goverment builds $10m building bitcoin busting ASIC farm, bitcoiner's change one value in their POW algorithm and do a network wide updated and the $10m farm is worthless", a counter measure we won't have forever but it's one we'll have up until the good guys are using asic/sasic in mass)

The long term security of bitcoin depends on it being to unimportant, uninteresting, and unconventional for that kind of adversary to bother with it.. until such a time as bitcoin is too important for them to afford and beloved to afford messing with it. If you look at how slowly most large institutions have adapted to technology this outcome doesn't seem unlikely.

Bitcoin isn't all negatives for the status-quo authorities— it should increase economic efficiency, and it removes the unfortunate attraction of printing money which all politicians hate (or at least hate when its for someone elses program) but almost universally can't resist when its for their own programs—... and if the public at large wants it, suppressing it would look bad indeed and wouldn't work out well in places that claim to have freedom.

I am sure bitcoin would REALLY take off it the Saudis required all petroleum purchases be conducted in bitcoin.

And then the Gov would take action.

[plastic.elastic]

so where did BFL get the performance figure from?

Technical specs? how can they advertise such performance and even have preorder?

 

[Transisto]

I have 3 day to cancel 5x 5970, maybe hurry up !...

[fred0]

so where did BFL get the performance figure from?

Technical specs? how can they advertise such performance and even have preorder?

Well, on the forum there has been much speculation as to the hardware used, optimization techniques, but they KNOW what devices are on the board.  My guess is they estimated what the device should be capable of producing.

They know the technical specs, we don't.  For us it is a black box that generates bitcoins.

We are paying attention to the demo because we want to see how well the widget can perform.  Until it measured, the number we are getting from BFL is/should be an educated extrapolation based on their knowledge of the hardware, and hopefully, they are spot on.  

However, it could also be that they are giving us measured result, but no one in the forum believes the numbers.

Until we see hashing measured by a trusted source, there is doubt.

Preorders were to fund the development, they were up front with this, I see no cause for complaint about preorder.  Preorders received $200 discount from the regular price.

Frankly, I can't imagine more problems NOT coming up.  Let's go one step at a time and see results for the demo.

If BFL is a scam, I'm sure they are already packing.  If a legit organization, they are working diligently to determine where the problem is.

We will see soon.

[bulanula]

I wake up expecting some proof and really thinking "this is 90% real right now" and instead wake up to find more delays ( initially it was supposed to be Friday then Sunday now next week LOL ). BFL fix your stuff please I wanna get rid of my noisy and hot GPUs ASAP.

[P4man]

Question to anyone that preordered: have you received any news or updates about the delivery schedule? Is there anyone who is past his chargeback deadline or who already did a chargeback and if so, how did BFL handle it?

[makomk]

Indeed you are correct.  There are some technical issues with the timing between the board and the software that they are working out, apparently.  I understand this will probably bring all the conspiracy theorists to the fore, so have at it.  For everyone else, I'm told that they will be ready in a couple days or so for a live demo. 

That's... interesting. Generally from what I've seen, unless you screw up the power and cooling FPGA-based designs either work or they don't; the communication between board and software isn't terribly complicated either. You can do it quite happily over serial and they've got a very widely-supported USB to serial chip on the board which they appear to be using as such so it's not like they even have to deal with USB.

[Herodes]

Remember the classical signs of a scam everybody: Delays, delays and more delays. +Excuses, excuses and more excuses.

As far as I can see it, BF Labs has failed at producing the demo that they promised, they have also failed at giving a proper
message as to why they failed.

I wouldn't touch this project with a barge-pole at the moment.

In the remote instance that they're infact legit, they suck hard at estimates and PR.

Meanwhile, the suckers keeps ordering, as the excitement builds up.

This smells like rotten fish over the entire atlantic sea.

And remember that even though a unit is eventually demoed that gives the proper hash-rate, it's no guarantee that buyers
in fact recieve nothing if they order.

Sorry, if this comes forth as very negative, but all the classical signs of a scam are there: Delays, excuses and poor communication.

[bulanula]

Remember the classical signs of a scam everybody: Delays, delays and more delays. +Excuses, excuses and more excuses.

As far as I can see it, BF Labs has failed at producing the demo that they promised, they have also failed at giving a proper
message as to why they failed.

I wouldn't touch this project with a barge-pole at the moment.

In the remote instance that they're infact legit, they suck hard at estimates and PR.

Meanwhile, the suckers keeps ordering, as the excitement builds up.

This smells like rotten fish over the entire atlantic sea.

And remember that even though a unit is eventually demoed that gives the proper hash-rate, it's no guarantee that buyers
in fact recieve nothing if they order.

Sorry, if this comes forth as very negative, but all the classical signs of a scam are there: Delays, excuses and poor communication.

+1 for this post. BFL you are scammers and you have proved it with these delays. Come on !!!

[DeathAndTaxes]

The website first accepted pre-orders on Oct 7th.  Paypal chargeback policy is 45 days.  That was on the Nov 21st.

This thread was created on Oct 18th.  45 days later is Dec 2nd.

[runeks]

Question to anyone that preordered: have you received any news or updates about the delivery schedule? Is there anyone who is past his chargeback deadline or who already did a chargeback and if so, how did BFL handle it?

I made a pre-order on November 9, I have received no updates on delivery time, except them restating what they say on their site: delivery is 4-8 weeks relative to the date of purchase. They did say that development was going as planned though, but that's it.

When I get around the 40 day marker, I will be contacting BFL to ask that they send a new invoice, which I then pay, after which they cancel the old one so that I regain the 45 day period to start a dispute within. If they're legit, they have nothing to lose doing this, as far as I can see. So if they decline I will be filing a claim to get my money back.

[P4man]

Do you really think if this is a scam, that they would accept paypal? They would have to be insane. A scammer will accept bitcoin, Western Union, cash, even bank transfers - anything but Paypal. PP will freeze your account and even associated bank account for a million far less valid reasons. There is no way anyone with a brain is going to invest at least $10K on an incredibly elaborate hoax that will only make them a few times their investment when it all depends on being able to run away with Paypal funds.

Its just not plausible.

OTOH a software glitch causing a minor delay.. well, somehow doesnt strike me as particularly implausible.

I dont mind a healthy level of skepticism, but this thread really reminds of fake moonlanding discussions.