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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 53657 times)
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October 10, 2019, 10:07:52 AM
 #1841

If I make a guide, will people translate it to local boards?

If it's good (with pictures, etc.), I think you can PM them the link, maybe I'll translate it for my board, too.

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October 10, 2019, 10:25:58 AM
 #1842

then any one can issue a red Trust. It works?  I did not know that.  I start tagging from today.
If you didn't know that, the users who voted you into DT1 did a bad job.

There's still a huge lack of understanding of the DT-system, especially on local boards. If I make a guide, will people translate it to local boards?

Absolutely we'll translate. I mentioned in Turkish in at least 3 different places how DT1 trust feedback works, but maybe an illustrated

comprehensive guide can send a more clear message. Thanks.

 
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October 10, 2019, 03:08:20 PM
 #1843

then any one can issue a red Trust. It works?  I did not know that.  I start tagging from today.
If you didn't know that, the users who voted you into DT1 did a bad job.

There's still a huge lack of understanding of the DT-system, especially on local boards. If I make a guide, will people translate it to local boards?
It's a great idea. for all local forums.



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October 10, 2019, 03:17:41 PM
Merited by fillippone (1)
 #1844

I'm convinced, I've started working on my Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system.

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October 10, 2019, 03:33:46 PM
Last edit: October 10, 2019, 05:36:34 PM by fillippone
 #1845

I would recommend also an advanced version.
Apparently it's a mystery to many users who cannot be classified as beginners.

Edit: I reserve the Italian translation.

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October 10, 2019, 05:15:30 PM
 #1846

I can help translate it and post it in my Local section.

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October 10, 2019, 05:56:44 PM
Merited by Yatsan (1)
 #1847

You guys may take a look on below thread which i created earlier and i hope its quite helpful for newbies to know about trust system and DT selection process.

Here it is: Keep your role on DT (Default Trust) selection


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October 10, 2019, 06:04:30 PM
Last edit: October 11, 2019, 06:05:57 AM by LoyceV
Merited by gospodin (1)
 #1848

I would recommend also an advanced version.
Apparently it's a mystery to many users who cannot be classified as beginners.
When you say "advanced", I'm thinking about all the details of DT1-selection including Merit requirements. There are a lot of details, but most of them don't matter for the correct use of feedback and Trust lists. If enough users use it in the right way, the system should work even when most users don't understand the details of DefaultTrust selection.

I've seen it, but I have a different approach Smiley

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October 10, 2019, 06:09:57 PM
 #1849

I've seen it, but I have a different approach Smiley
That's gonna be great and eagerly waiting to see that Smiley


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1miau
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October 11, 2019, 01:26:01 AM
 #1850

I'm convinced, I've started working on my Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system.
I would recommend also an advanced version.
Apparently it's a mystery to many users who cannot be classified as beginners.

Edit: I reserve the Italian translation.
I can help translate it and post it in my Local section.
#JOIN

German translation reserved.
Where is your spreadsheet plz, sir?  Tongue



I've also considered to create a detailed guide for our local board, especially explaining the difference between trust (feedback) and trust list. But my free time is extremely limited and I had no chance to start writing it yet. If you don't mind I would also use your guide and possibly add few points below.  Wink

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October 11, 2019, 02:42:09 PM
 #1851

@malevolent @Vispilio @gospodin @fillippone @TheNewAnon135246 @TalkStar @1miau :
See Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

It's a first version, there are probably more things I should add, so please post if I forgot stuff. But I also try to keep it "short", and it's already much longer than most users will ever read.

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October 11, 2019, 03:01:34 PM
 #1852

@malevolent @Vispilio @gospodin @fillippone @TheNewAnon135246 @TalkStar @1miau :
See Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

It's a first version, there are probably more things I should add, so please post if I forgot stuff. But I also try to keep it "short", and it's already much longer than most users will ever read.

Good wall of text.

commenting there my doubt.


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October 11, 2019, 09:28:34 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #1853


Good wall of text.

commenting there my doubt.



This is the granddaddy of all Trust guides, covering everything from beginner to native forum fluency Smiley,

maybe we should do it piecemeal so local users don't immediately give up on reading a novella at first sight  Wink

Great job nonetheless @LoyceV, very informative.

 
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October 11, 2019, 11:52:16 PM
 #1854

@malevolent @Vispilio @gospodin @fillippone @TheNewAnon135246 @TalkStar @1miau :
See Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system
Outstanding guide, it's a very good read! How long did it take you to write it?  Cheesy

But unfortunately Lafu was faster and translated your guide into German already, so I'm out for the translation.  Cry

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October 12, 2019, 08:01:05 AM
 #1855

How long did it take you to write it?  Cheesy
A few hours, spread out over 2 days. That's also the reason I didn't cover Trust Flags yet: lack of time.

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October 12, 2019, 12:04:09 PM
 #1856

@malevolent @Vispilio @gospodin @fillippone @TheNewAnon135246 @TalkStar @1miau :
See Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

It's a first version, there are probably more things I should add, so please post if I forgot stuff. But I also try to keep it "short", and it's already much longer than most users will ever read.
#RESERVE
I want to translate it in Philippines local board, Thank you for wonderful guide LoyceV  Smiley


.Mix coins.
 
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October 13, 2019, 04:54:35 PM
 #1857

For years I've been unhappy with how DefaultTrust ended up as a centralized and largely-untouchable authority, but I was reluctant to change it because the alternatives seemed too messy. However, I've finally decided to try some changes, and we'll see how it works.

#1
As a special exception to the normal algorithm for determining a user's trust network, if you are on the default trust list ("DT1") but more other DT1 members distrust you than explicitly trust you, then it is as if you are distrusted by the default trust list for all purposes except for this very DT1-composition determination.

So if someone on DT1 is doing something stupid, you can ask other DT1 members to distrust them.

See here for live info on this "DT voting".

#2
You can view any page as if you were using the default trust settings by putting ;dt at the end of the URL. Eg. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=35;dt

#3
I will periodically (maybe every month) be reconstructing the default trust list to include everyone who matches these criteria:
 - If rank was determined solely using earned merit, then you must be of at least Member rank.
 - You must have been online sometime within the last 3 days.
 - Your trust list must include at least 10 users, not including ~distrust entries.
 - You must not be banned or manually blacklisted from selection.
 - You must have posted sometime within the last 30 days.
 - You must have at least 10 people directly trusting you each with an earned merit of at least 10, not including merit you yourself sent. These "votes" are limited.
 - You must have at least 2 people directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 250, not including merit you yourself sent. These "votes" are limited.

Unlike the previous policy, I will not generally be trying to cultivate a good list; that will be left to the DT1 members themselves. However, I reserve the right to remove you and blacklist you from future selection if you engage in egregious and obvious abuse, or if multiple known alt accounts could be selected.

Currently not that many users are eligible. If hundreds of users would be selected in the future, I plan to instead choose a random subset of about 100 eligible users each time. This DT1 reconstruction may even automatically happen on a schedule in the future, but it doesn't currently.



A major goal of this is to allow retaliatory distrusts and ratings to actually have some chance of mattering so that contentious ratings have an actual cost. If someone is obviously scamming, then any retaliatory rating should not last long due to the DT1 "voting", but if you negative-rate someone for generally disliking them, then their retaliation against you may stick. In borderline cases, it should result in something of a political battle.

This is inspired partly by something that David Friedman said once (though I can't find the quote), that one of the requirements for a peaceful society is the credible threat of retaliation in case you are harmed. As DT was organized previously, one or both sides of a dispute was usually unable to effectively retaliate to a rating, at least via the trust system itself. Now your ability to effectively retaliate will tend to increase as you become more established in the community, which should discourage abuse generally. (Or that's the idea, at least.)

All that being said, I still discourage retaliatory ratings, and with these changes I encourage people to try to "bury the hatchet" and de-escalate rather than trying to use any increased retaliatory power you now have. Also, it's best to make your own custom list, and you must do this if you want to be on DT1.

I am never completely tied to anything, but let's try this for at least a few months and see how it works.

Yet another bullshit system and I don't give a damn about it . Specially the moderators here are idiots . Coolwave was called as scammer with no scam proof . Also there is a bullshit large text about something which is not even verified. You guys are such a dumbass.

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October 17, 2019, 08:26:44 AM
Last edit: October 17, 2019, 09:17:05 AM by fillippone
 #1858

The chances of any one or more people already excluded in the first month also being excluded in the second month (when there are 104 eligible in the 1st month and 106 eligible in the next month) is:
4 * [1-(100/106)], or ~22.4%

Damn it, I simulated it, and you seem right. I suppose that my model of the situation was wrong because it actually does matter that the first month has already happened, whereas I was trying to eliminate the specificity of this.

Guys I am again on this.
I thought about this problem quite extensively during this weekend on the italian riviera.

I think Quickseller formula is not correct as it does allow repetition, while we must find a solution without repetition (if a user is selected, it cannot be taken out again on the same round).
I think Theymos was then on the right path using binomial coefficients, so I am going to use the same technique.

The right probability of any of the 4 excluded in the first round to be excluded in the second round is equal to 1 - the probability of everyone of such 4 to be selected:

1-C(100,4)/C(106,4)=0.210654248

another less intuitive method give the  same exact result:

1-C(102,6)/C(106,6)=0.210654248

(probability of being amongst the 6 excluded from the second extraction chosen by the 100 selected from the first extraction + the 2 new addition).

I am almost sure about this, but please double check me again.
Theymos said he simulated and got a result very similar to Quickseller, this scares me, also because I saw LoyceV and other heavyweight meriting previous solution... shall I go back to school?

EDIT: Forgot to mention, but clearly an hypothesis here: every candidate on the first round is a candidate also for the second round. This simplifies calculations, when we agree on the solution, we'll be able to remove this hypothesis.




Dear Lord!
This happened to me, so back to the blackboard:
This month there were 111 eligible candidates.
So the probability that any of the the excluded this month, being excluded also next month is (provided the candidate's number stay at 11):
  
1-C(100,11)/C(111,11)=0.70072

Pretty Impressive!

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November 02, 2019, 06:28:10 PM
Merited by bones261 (2)
 #1859

Theymos has just updated DT1, these are the changes:

Old:
     1. Staff HostFat (Trust: +2 / =0 / -1) (92 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     2. Donator CanaryInTheMine (Trust: +30 / =0 / -0) (42 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     3. Legendary Vod (Trust: +27 / =2 / -3) (1313 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     4. Legendary monkeynuts (Trust: +28 / =1 / -0) (190 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     5. Legendary TMAN (Trust: +28 / =1 / -1) (1056 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     6. Legendary vizique (Trust: +32 / =0 / -0) (320 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     7. Legendary willi9974 (Trust: +4 / =0 / -1) (55 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     8. Hero Member teeGUMES (Trust: +14 / =2 / -1) (336 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     9. Copper Member LFC_Bitcoin (Trust: +7 / =0 / -0) (1223 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    10. Legendary The Pharmacist (Trust: +23 / =0 / -0) (2142 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    11. Hero Member Gunthar (Trust: +10 / =0 / -0) (94 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    12. Hero Member Ale88 (Trust: +4 / =0 / -0) (252 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    13. Hero Member Veleor (Trust: +7 / =0 / -0) (1077 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    14. Sr. Member theyoungmillionaire (Trust: +6 / =1 / -0) (957 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    15. Hero Member anonymousminer (Trust: +22 / =0 / -0) (503 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    16. Hero Member Alex_Sr (Trust: +5 / =0 / -0) (898 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)

New:
    1. Legendary dooglus (Trust: +15 / =0 / -0) (207 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    2. Legendary TECSHARE (Trust: +37 / =4 / -1) (502 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    3. Donator OgNasty (Trust: +84 / =2 / -5) (728 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    4. Legendary Anduck (Trust: +19 / =2 / -1) (55 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    5. Legendary DiamondCardz (Trust: +9 / =0 / -0) (81 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    6. Legendary Micio (Trust: +10 / =0 / -0) (250 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    7. Legendary greenplastic (Trust: +50 / =0 / -0) (105 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    8. Copper Member minerjones (Trust: +98 / =1 / -0) (896 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    9. Legendary BitcoinPenny (Trust: +42 / =0 / -0) (542 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   10. Legendary bob123 (Trust: +1 / =1 / -0) (1320 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   11. Hero Member be.open (Trust: +0 / =2 / -1) (311 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   12. Sr. Member wolwoo (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (86 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   13. Hero Member Blacknavy (Trust: +6 / =1 / -0) (620 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   14. Sr. Member Silent26 (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (222 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   15. Hero Member fillippone (Trust: +7 / =0 / -0) (1517 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   16. Hero Member madnessteat (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (571 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)

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November 02, 2019, 06:32:50 PM
 #1860


There are a lot of people who are on DT who have negative trust. It seems there might be a mismatch between who is on DT and who should be on DT.

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