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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 43010 times)
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January 10, 2019, 08:41:27 PM
Merited by mikeywith (4)
 #341

If DT1 was reconstructed now with that modification:

That's still a huge list and only after a ~ day of everyone tinkering with their trust lists. Imagine what will happen next month.

I'm thinking that having the same trust list serve multiple purposes (trusted vs untrusted feedback, DT2 level, voting for DT1) might be a problem. E.g. there are users whose feedback I trust but not their "subordinates" so I would prefer to not vote for them but still keep them in my list. Not sure if there is an easy solution to that though. Certainly don't want to force everyone to maintain several different lists.

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January 10, 2019, 08:44:36 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #342

The number of users trusted by 100+-merit users is now over 700. I think that I may modify that to requiring 2 trusters with 250 earned merit.
You might want to do this before the rebuild on monday. The previous number is likely only to get bigger as more and more people build lists.

This. Then make it 300 merits next month and keep stepping the requirement up monthly

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suchmoon
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January 10, 2019, 08:52:06 PM
 #343

Another thing to consider is a limit on votes per user. For example if someone adds 200 users to their list they would be voting for all 200. Perhaps there should be a limit of counting only 10-20 of those 200 votes. This would prevent abusers from propping up unlimited numbers of sockpuppets. Not sure how to choose which 10-20 of 200. Alphabetical or ID order doesn't sound right.

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January 10, 2019, 08:55:01 PM
 #344

Another thing to consider is a limit on votes per user. For example if I add 200 users to my list I would be voting for all 200. Perhaps there should be a limit of counting only 10-20 of my 200 votes.
Good suggestion.

This would prevent abusers from propping up unlimited numbers of sockpuppets. Not sure how to apply it though. Alphabetical or ID order doesn't sound right.
There has to be some way to order your list if the above is implemented.

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January 10, 2019, 08:56:47 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), iasenko (1)
 #345

Perhaps something along the line of prefixing an * if you wish to vote for the user for DT1 in addition to adding them to your trust list?

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January 10, 2019, 08:58:48 PM
 #346

Another thing to consider is a limit on votes per user. For example if I add 200 users to my list I would be voting for all 200. Perhaps there should be a limit of counting only 10-20 of my 200 votes.
Good suggestion.

This would prevent abusers from propping up unlimited numbers of sockpuppets. Not sure how to apply it though. Alphabetical or ID order doesn't sound right.
There has to be some way to order your list if the above is implemented.

Would be nice, and in that case might as well let each user choose how many votes they want to use, from 0 to max e.g. 10.

Perhaps something along the line of prefixing an * if you wish to vote for the user for DT1 in addition to adding them to your trust list?

Or this, allowing up to 10 users to be prefixed this way.

We can make it very complicated very quickly, no doubt about that Smiley

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January 10, 2019, 09:03:31 PM
 #347


If DT1 was reconstructed now with that modification:
Code:
theymos
HostFat **
dooglus
gmaxwell
OgNasty **
SebastianJu
qwk
mprep *
Cyrus
monkeynuts
ibminer *
TMAN
Lauda
TookDk *
Mitchell
vizique *
Blazed
greenplastic
Lesbian Cow *
suchmoon
achow101
owlcatz
JohnUser
minerjones *
BitcoinPenny
yahoo62278 *
zazarb **
LoyceV *
actmyname
The Pharmacist
DarkStar *_
marlboroza *
Hhampuz*
krogothmanhattan

So, the 3 in/outers would be in **
9 new *
out from previous DT1: The Pharmacist.
What does that mean?

Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence
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January 10, 2019, 09:06:02 PM
 #348


If DT1 was reconstructed now with that modification:
Code:
theymos
HostFat **
dooglus
gmaxwell
OgNasty **
SebastianJu
qwk
mprep *
Cyrus
monkeynuts
ibminer *
TMAN
Lauda
TookDk *
Mitchell
vizique *
Blazed
greenplastic
Lesbian Cow *
suchmoon
achow101
owlcatz
JohnUser
minerjones *
BitcoinPenny
yahoo62278 *
zazarb **
LoyceV *
actmyname
The Pharmacist
DarkStar *_
marlboroza *
Hhampuz*
krogothmanhattan

So, the 3 in/outers are in **
9 new *
out from previous DT1: The Pharmacist.
What does that mean?
I am 100% sure it doesn't count inclusions/exclusions inbetween the DT1 members. There's no way Hostfat is going to be in; his judgement is completely backwards at best.

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January 10, 2019, 09:07:07 PM
 #349

The Pharmacist is still on that new list.

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January 10, 2019, 09:08:54 PM
 #350

I cannot follow this DT.... have to read it very slowly

till I know I just consider every member wearing a XhomerX HAT to be trustworthy, don't think he would ever make one for a scammer etc Tongue

(but still gonna read this through and try to make something of it, thx for the effort anyway)


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January 10, 2019, 09:10:32 PM
 #351

The Pharmacist is still on that new list.

My bad, edited.

Quote
I am 100% sure it doesn't count inclusions/exclusions inbetween the DT1 members.

Probably so.

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January 10, 2019, 09:13:36 PM
 #352

Here's suchmoon's DT2 list with profile links. mike is a zero post zero feedback newbie, added by BitcoinPenny. BiPolarBob is a hacked account, added by SebastianJu.

Time for some excluding Wink

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January 10, 2019, 09:22:43 PM
 #353

I'm thinking that having the same trust list serve multiple purposes (trusted vs untrusted feedback, DT2 level, voting for DT1) might be a problem. E.g. there are users whose feedback I trust but not their "subordinates" so I would prefer to not vote for them but still keep them in my list. Not sure if there is an easy solution to that though. Certainly don't want to force everyone to maintain several different lists.
I have the same problem. For example: at the moment my trust setting shows theymos with 1 red tag. However, if I were to become DT1, my "subordinates" on DT2 are only the ones I picked directly. The annoying part is that my own trust looks different because those "subordinates" are counted towards my own trust view. I would like to see the same trust settings as a user without a custom list, while at the same time being able to create my own list of "subordinates".

This. Then make it 300 merits next month and keep stepping the requirement up monthly
That would eventually lead to a centralized system with old users on DT, which I think is what theymos is trying to change.

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January 10, 2019, 09:26:50 PM
 #354

I'm thinking that having the same trust list serve multiple purposes (trusted vs untrusted feedback, DT2 level, voting for DT1) might be a problem. E.g. there are users whose feedback I trust but not their "subordinates" so I would prefer to not vote for them but still keep them in my list. Not sure if there is an easy solution to that though. Certainly don't want to force everyone to maintain several different lists.
I have the same problem. For example: at the moment my trust setting shows theymos with 1 red tag. However, if I were to become DT1, my "subordinates" on DT2 are only the ones I picked directly. The annoying part is that my own trust looks different because those "subordinates" are counted towards my own trust view. I would like to see the same trust settings as a user without a custom list, while at the same time being able to create my own list of "subordinates".

Sounds like you want access to this buttonWink

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January 10, 2019, 09:45:59 PM
 #355

Correct me if I am wrong here fellas, but if everyone creates their own custom trust lists Default Trust will have little to no meaning....

Correct.  But many people (out of 225,000 active users) are just lazy or don't care enough.  I'm one of them - I choose to trust Theymos because he spends more time on this forum than anyone else.

But with this new system, I might have to actually take the time to build my own list.  While trying to step away from the politics and into more project development.

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January 10, 2019, 09:50:40 PM
 #356

Mine was already customised, but seems I had a greater number of users excluded from my trust list than I had included.  I think it must be that psychological factor where negative impressions tend to be more memorable than positive ones.  All updated now.

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January 10, 2019, 09:51:02 PM
Merited by suchmoon (7), JayJuanGee (1)
 #357

Correct me if I am wrong here fellas, but if everyone creates their own custom trust lists Default Trust will have little to no meaning....

I don't necessarily see the detriment inherent within losing the meaning currently upheld by Default Trust. It has been serving a necessary purpose, but decentralizing the trust system without needlessly ruining it would seem to be a feasible goal. Default Trust makes this damn near impossible, and so maybe a few tweaks that lessen the weight put upon Default Trust would be good for the community as a whole. Default Trust members are bombarded with accusations, responsibilities and decisions that are much more heavily scrutinized; this is not something that any of them enjoy as far as I know. Maybe I am missing something, but default trust losing some of it's influence would seem to be a positive as long as there is still some kind of feasible "reputation" system.
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January 10, 2019, 10:08:52 PM
 #358

Correct me if I am wrong here fellas, but if everyone creates their own custom trust lists Default Trust will have little to no meaning....
That is the point, though. If your network consists of some static list that you're just "supposed" to trust then it's rather unreliable.

Your network should consist of those that you trust. In the old DT system, capricious individuals could hand out ratings that you may have disagreed with. To that end, it would be advised to set your depth to 1 in order to truly keep it personalized. Smiley

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January 10, 2019, 10:14:02 PM
Merited by theymos_away (5), bones261 (3), LoyceV (3), DooMAD (2), o_e_l_e_o (2), JayJuanGee (1), iasenko (1)
 #359

I see that you guys are putting a large amount of work into this right now and that is good, but come Monday I expect DT to drastically change again and become much bigger, possibly bigger than it ever has been before, so I hope you are pacing yourselves..

I myself am not sure what I am going to do with my list yet. I am probably just going to leave it blank other than brief experimenting for now, likely through past the recalculation Monday and see what that brings.

I am tempted to set at least a very conservative list of 10 now to be eligible for DT1, but I don't think I want anywhere near that so early on in the chaos.

Now that this is going to be a very big list (I think) and in many more people's hands, I half want to create quite a big trust list of users just that I somewhat trust to try to do what they believe is the right thing to do, and give them a chance. Users that have been here a good while and not used whatever reputation they have made to scam, and have interest in the good of crypto, might deserve a chance on my list..

I tested a list of a good amount of the most recognized users on BPIP, and I quite liked it..
It makes for a lot more ratings and I found that mostly the decent ratings came up to DT and the worst of them stayed in untrusted..
I am one to go through untrusted feedback when I am trying to make a decision on anyone anyway, and this really helped to distinguish the best part of untrusted feedback from the worst that stayed untrusted.
With just a few exclusions of (mostly unheard of users) bad ratings that leaked through, to me it looked pretty good..
For example ThePharmacist, out of his gazillion spam untrusted retaliation feedback, only 2 or 3 slipped into the trusted feedback. Which I think is pretty good results simply fixed with a couple exclusions.

I would like for DT to be much more decentralized and in much more people's hands.
DT being so small and rare makes all DT ratings overly powerful IMO. I think DT being a lot larger and more common, reducing the power of any single rating, would make for a better trust system.

I do not like how, a user with an extensive positive history, is close to destroyed by just one very powerful negative rating. In a more dispersed trust system a single negative is much less powerful among an extensive positive history, and could help people not make such a big deal and fuss about their disagreements.
If many agree with the importance of an issue they can always step in and add their own/more negatives rather than a single one being so massive.
I also would like to see a lot more positive ratings out there. DT is too focused on negative ratings and their are a lot of good positive rating out there that don't make it.

But a big list such as this too soon would make me no friends and probably get me excluded by many and generally be a problem for me, because if most anyone who is anyone is on my list that means that their enemies likely are too, and everyone from all sides will be pissed about it..

Even with a small list, if I add almost anybody their is going to be someone out there that is going to be pissed that I added that person, especially with a small list.
It's like any small list is choosing sides, a big list is choosing decentralization, and no list is choosing to be a poor member..
I feel I need to wait for more data to make a decision..


I see that @suchmoon has me on their list. I guess thanks, I'm flattered and appreciate the recognition.
I think you can trust me to always try to do whatever I think is the right thing to do..
But I think it is very fragile and likely to be short lived. Probably as soon as I make a decentralized trust list some enemy(s) of suchmoon will make it on there and I will be excluded..
Even if I put suchmoon and many of his friends on my list, which surely would be, I'll probably be discluded if I add anyone that suchmoon disagrees with.. And if I don't, I'll be discluded by anyone who disagrees with suchmoon..

I need to see what this actually tuns into before I do too much and open myself up to who knows how much drama.

This sure is an interesting and exciting happening though!
I really hope this turns out well for the future Bitcoin and cryptocurrency..

Good luck to all and I hope that this can ultimately help people put their differences aside to build a great trust system!  Smiley

(while you were typing 27 new replies have been posted)

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January 10, 2019, 10:16:06 PM
 #360

Correct me if I am wrong here fellas, but if everyone creates their own custom trust lists Default Trust will have little to no meaning....

not true, most members use default trust setting, the majority of members who will now switch from dt list to custom list are those who are trying to "vote" or "be on DT". as for the majority of members will always be too lazy to create their own custom trust list.

also a lot of people who use custom list still have default trust on their list.

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