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Author Topic: Idena is the first Proof-of-Person Blockchain  (Read 1506 times)
AndrewIdena
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October 24, 2019, 11:08:20 AM
Last edit: October 29, 2019, 06:57:34 PM by mprep
 #21

I have downloaded the wallet and running it on my computer.
this is not fine at all, my disk is running for 90%-95% when I am running the node. It makes my computer very slow, and hard to use.

The slow disks might be loaded if you run the node for first time. It takes some to to synrchonize the blockchain data at the beginning.
You can see the if the node is synrchonized in the Idena Client user interface.

I do not think it is possible to run the node on VPS too because my account will be suspended if I am running it on my VPS, it requires 90% of the disk to run the node.

Many Idena participants are running their nodes on VPS. There were no issues with VPS performance until now.




A very original way to protect the network from fraudsters. If I understand correctly, the scammers will have to have one laptop for each account at the time of verification and several pairs of hands, depending on how many accounts they have registered. To organize such a very problematic, which makes your solution in the fight against multi-accounts very workable, I'm delighted. 
Yes, that's correct.



The next validation party starts in one hour and a half.
Invitations can be requested here.



Get ready! Validation starts in 30 minutes



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October 24, 2019, 01:50:55 PM
 #22

If I may ask, does the mining require an actively powered laptop? What if I put bit off, will hit continue to mine?
The reason I asked this is that, that is the major problem I have in my location.

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October 24, 2019, 02:03:53 PM
Last edit: October 29, 2019, 06:58:13 PM by mprep
 #23

If I may ask, does the mining require an actively powered laptop? What if I put bit off, will hit continue to mine?
The reason I asked this is that, that is the major problem I have in my location.

Once you're successfully validated you can activate the mining mode for your address. Then your node has to stay online synchronized in order to mine coins.
Otherwise if your node comes offline for more than 1 hour penalties are charged. You can deactivate the mining mode at anytime and enjoy the validation rewards only.



The validation session is finished.

Total 75 identities are validated. The validation report:
https://scan.idena.io/validation?epoch=15

Validation rewards paid:
https://scan.idena.io/rewards?epoch=15
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October 24, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
 #24

The slow disks might be loaded if you run the node for first time. It takes some to to synrchonize the blockchain data at the beginning.
You can see the if the node is synrchonized in the Idena Client user interface.
You should have told us in the first place, I thought something wrong happened with my computer. How long it will take?
I have waited for 15 minutes and it kept showing 90%+


Many Idena participants are running their nodes on VPS. There were no issues with VPS performance until now.

Can I download the blockchain locally and then move the data to VPS and using it?

 
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October 24, 2019, 04:06:34 PM
 #25


You should have told us in the first place, I thought something wrong happened with my computer. How long it will take?
I have waited for 15 minutes and it kept showing 90%+

It depends on your computer and the network speed. You can see the synchronization progress in the Idena Client user interface. Did you downloaded it?


Can I download the blockchain locally and then move the data to VPS and using it?

Yes you can move the full copy of the /datadir/ folder which is created in the same directory where the node is located.
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October 24, 2019, 06:04:21 PM
 #26


It’s correct though might seem weird. Every Idena user on a planet needs to appear online at the same time and solve 5 flips in less than 2 minutes in order to prove their uniqueness. Consider it as a global online party.

Yeah, it felt strange for a while, but now when i've had time to think about it, it makes sense. It was just a new approach and hard to get my head around it first. Luckily i live in a timezone that allows me to participate without any problems.

 
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October 25, 2019, 06:11:49 AM
 #27

It depends on your computer and the network speed. You can see the synchronization progress in the Idena Client user interface. Did you downloaded it?
Yes, I have downloaded it but I did not see the progress bar on the client. It is normal? my network speed is 10 Mbps.
I am currently at blocks 405121 and it stopped. What should I do next?
do you have a video tutorial or something like that to help us run the node?

 
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October 25, 2019, 06:36:06 AM
 #28

Don't you think that single individual could run multiple idena nodes in order to cheat or something? This is a potential problem... you think it doesn't matter or has it been solve?

Will download the node later and see how the whole thing works. I already bookmarked your site.
This looks very interesting.



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October 25, 2019, 02:53:10 PM
Last edit: October 29, 2019, 06:59:17 PM by mprep
 #29

Don't you think that single individual could run multiple idena nodes in order to cheat or something? This is a potential problem... you think it doesn't matter or has it been solve?

Will download the node later and see how the whole thing works. I already bookmarked your site.
This looks very interesting.

Individual must validate themself in order to mine coins.

The uniqueness of participants is proven by the fact that they must solve and provide the answers for flip-puzzles synchronously. A single person is not able to validate herself multiple times because of the very limited timeframe for the submission of the answers.

https://idena.io/?view=faq#faq-pop-1




Yes, I have downloaded it but I did not see the progress bar on the client. It is normal? my network speed is 10 Mbps.
I am currently at blocks 405121 and it stopped. What should I do next?
do you have a video tutorial or something like that to help us run the node?

Please check PM
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October 25, 2019, 03:42:23 PM
 #30


Can you release a deb package for your Linux client? Looks like I have to compile it myself which I have to go all the stuff again that i completely forgotten how to find its dependencies but  I am interested to run a node with my old machine, maybe I can make this run the whole time while it still lives.

How much coins can we mine a day being a node?

 
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October 25, 2019, 03:43:12 PM
 #31

Don't you think that single individual could run multiple idena nodes in order to cheat or something? This is a potential problem... you think it doesn't matter or has it been solve?

Will download the node later and see how the whole thing works. I already bookmarked your site.
This looks very interesting.

Individual must validate themself in order to mine coins.

The uniqueness of participants is proven by the fact that they must solve and provide the answers for flip-puzzles synchronously. A single person is not able to validate herself multiple times because of the very limited timeframe for the submission of the answers.

https://idena.io/?view=faq#faq-pop-1


Thanks for the link. This particular one makes the whole cheating with multiple accounts question clear:
Quote
Would Mechanical Turk obliterate the validation?
If this becomes valuable, I imagine that a user will find it profitable to hire multiple people to solve captcha.

It is also possible that thousands/millions of sophisticated AI will be used to solve captcha?



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October 25, 2019, 03:49:19 PM
 #32

There is the first Proof-of-Person Blockchain. No money for stake or equipment needed, just an average laptop.
You can easily join mining of the first human-centric cryptocurrency at idena.io and share your opinion.

Where to start?
1. Visit the website idena.io to learn more about Idena.
2. Download and install the Idena Node and Idena Client executable files at  https://idena.io/?view=download or build them from source at https://github.com/idena-network.
3. Subscribe to the Idena Announcements channel at https://t.me/IdenaAnnouncements to follow updates.
4. Request an invitation code here or
in the Idena Telegram chat at https://t.me/IdenaNetworkPublic or
in the Discord: https://discord.gg/egaWtsf
5. Make sure your node is synchronized, and activate the invitation code. Check your identity status; it should be "Candidate". The invitation can not be activated in last 5 minutes before the validation.
6. Learn how to solve flips: read the article in our blog  https://medium.com/idena/how-to-prove-your-identity-anonymously-919bdfe5249a and test yourself https://flips.idena.io/?pass=idena.io

How to get validated?
1. Check the next validation time in the Idena app or at the website.
2. Your node must be fully synchronized before the session starts.
3. Your computer time must be synchronized with the internet time.
4. Solve the flips during the validation session. Be agile. The first 5 flips must be submitted in less than 2 minutes.

What's next?
1. Once your identity is validated, keep your node up and running in order to mine coins.
2. Learn how to create flips. Don't forget to create three fips  before the next validation in advance. Schedule your next validation.
Proof of person 🤔 sounds weird. That's how gym reward a crappie project, came up with proof of exercise (POE). I hope this one won't be a total mess also. Well, we keep learning so I will like to know more about this proof of person algorithm. POW and POS are the algorithms I'm used to.

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October 27, 2019, 09:55:38 PM
Last edit: October 29, 2019, 07:01:02 PM by mprep
 #33

Can you release a deb package for your Linux client? Looks like I have to compile it myself which I have to go all the stuff again that i completely forgotten how to find its dependencies but  I am interested to run a node with my old machine, maybe I can make this run the whole time while it still lives.

Sorry, we don't release builds of Idena Client for the Linux yet.
In order to build the client from source code you'd need the following:
1. install npm
2. get the source code from the github release
3. npm install
4. npm run start

How much coins can we mine a day being a node?

There are 51,840 DNA coins are minted per day maximum. 50% is mined while producing the blocks. The rest of the coins are minted during validation sessions. The coins are distributed between all validated participants.
https://idena.io/?view=faq#faq-economy-2



It is also possible that thousands/millions of sophisticated AI will be used to solve captcha?

Hopefully this will answer the question:
https://medium.com/idena/ai-resistant-captchas-are-they-really-possible-760ac5065bae



Announcement
Please doublecheck the time of next validation in Idena app
If you had the clocks change to the winter time this weekend in your country then the validation time for you will be shifted for 1 hour

The validation time is always fixed at 13:30 UTC
Idena app displays the proper validation time for your local time zone


Idena Node version 0.13.2 is available
Changes:
- Validation session critical bug fix (false late submission)
The update is highly recommended for the successful validation:
https://idena.io/?view=download

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October 28, 2019, 02:14:29 AM
 #34

Announcement
Please doublecheck the time of next validation in Idena app
If you had the clocks change to the winter time this weekend in your country then the validation time for you will be shifted for 1 hour

The validation time is always fixed at 13:30 UTC
Idena app displays the proper validation time for your local time zone


Idena Node version 0.13.2 is available
Changes:
- Validation session critical bug fix (false late submission)
The update is highly recommended for the successful validation:
https://idena.io/?view=download



i been trying to get validated for a week+, never seems to work and just eats way too much bandwidth sitting open fully synced
im just gonna uninstall this, i cant just sit and watch a wallet 24 hours a day for a captcha to pop up, someone sent me an invite code, why is that not enough?
you guys really should have thought this through...

 
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October 28, 2019, 04:29:27 AM
 #35

Interesting. Watching to see how the POP plays out.

USE CASE is necessary. You are at the point of a truly fair distribution IF this ends up working, but even if successful at distribution of coins, and keeping the network running, what is it all for?

What am I missing here??

Very interesting start. We need new ideas in the space really bad
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October 28, 2019, 04:37:55 AM
Last edit: October 29, 2019, 07:01:31 PM by mprep
 #36

i been trying to get validated for a week+, never seems to work and just eats way too much bandwidth sitting open fully synced
im just gonna uninstall this,

Did you try to use lowpower parameter to run the node? This should help for you:
https://idena.io/?view=guide#guide-issues-1

i cant just sit and watch a wallet 24 hours a day for a captcha to pop up

You can close the wallet if you don't want to mine the coins all the time.
You need to appear online at the certain time and solve 5 flips in less than 2 minutes to validate yourself.
Just make sure your node is fully synchronized right before the validation.

someone sent me an invite code, why is that not enough?
you guys really should have thought this through...

No, unfortunately that's not enough. The invitation itself can not guarantee that one person has only one address.
If someone can send you multiple invitations then you can have multiple accounts. Then you can issue more invitations for yourself and thus grow millions of fake accounts.

Just look at the facebook struggling with billions of fake accounts:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/05/24/facebook-deleted-more-than-2-billion-fake-accounts-in-the-first-quarter-of-the-year-infographic/#7efd1f767e30


 






USE CASE is necessary. You are at the point of a truly fair distribution IF this ends up working, but even if successful at distribution of coins, and keeping the network running, what is it all for?

What am I missing here??

Idena blockchain formalizes people so there might be use cases that we can not anticipate yet. But there are some issues that hopefully POP may address:
1. Fair voting and the governance. The hardest issue in the blockchain space is how to establish democratic decision making.
2. Concentration issue. There are 3 mining pools conrtol 51% of the Bitcoin hashrate. Bitcoin mining is concentrated in one area. 80% of the hashrate is located in China. Ethereum PoS will not change the game. The initial wealth of is in few hands. 70% of ETH was premined. 53% of ETH owned by 400 wallets.
3. Blockchain scalability issue. Running multiple shard-chains is not safe when the stake is concentrated.






Validation is starting. Get ready!



Validation report is available

85 identities are validated: https://scan.idena.io/validation?epoch=16

192 flips where created before the validation: https://scan.idena.io/validation?epoch=16#flips
- 180 flips are qualified
- 7 flips did not reach consensus about the right answer and were disqualified
- 5 flips reached a weak consensus about the right answer

Validation rewards paid to participants: https://scan.idena.io/rewards?epoch=16
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October 28, 2019, 03:22:17 PM
 #37

-snip-
2. Learn how to create flips. Don't forget to create three fips  before the next validation in advance. Schedule your next validation.
There's an error in the OP, I guess it should be flips  Roll Eyes just saying.
Looks quite interesting, I think I will try this out, can have my invite code PM'ed here?
Are those invite codes, the only method for keeping nodes unique or the system is also looking at IP addresses, stuff like that?

 
                                . ██████████.
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                        -█████████████████████████████
                     .██████████████████████████████████.
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       .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       ..████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████..
       .   .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       .      .████████████████████████████████████████████████.

       .       .██████████████████████████████████████████████
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October 28, 2019, 04:59:15 PM
 #38

i am proud that i finally found the time to make it three times in a row to the validation time window without beeing terminated Wink  



Idena blockchain formalizes people so there might be use cases that we can not anticipate yet. But there are some issues that hopefully POP may address:
1. Fair voting and the governance. The hardest issue in the blockchain space is how to establish democratic decision making.
2. Concentration issue. There are 3 mining pools conrtol 51% of the Bitcoin hashrate. Bitcoin mining is concentrated in one area. 80% of the hashrate is located in China. Ethereum PoS will not change the game. The initial wealth of is in few hands. 70% of ETH was premined. 53% of ETH owned by 400 wallets.


Sounds good, but... - how can you be sure that those new PoP-Accounts dont concentrate all in the same fabric halls in china again?  Or - more likely when it comes to cost of human work - this time in nigeria or other countries known for their strong "airdrop mafia", monopolizing multiple accounts which are keeped alive by random third world workers from the street?

Those kind of bad actors allready seem to have killed mannabase.com (a centralized so called cryptoubi-project of 2016/2017, lacking sybil restistance) with thousands of fake-accounts, even while mannabase was worth nearly nothing on fiat exchange.

Ubic.network has different interesting approach to avoid sybil attacks, using proof of e-passport and thereby proof of nationality - maybe you could distribute your idena-PoP more globaly, using something like UBIC as an optional second layer?



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October 28, 2019, 05:04:27 PM
 #39

Is there anything the mined coins can be used for? What's the economy behind the coin? Why should anyone actually *use* Idena?
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October 28, 2019, 05:35:09 PM
Last edit: October 29, 2019, 07:03:27 PM by mprep
 #40

-snip-
2. Learn how to create flips. Don't forget to create three fips  before the next validation in advance. Schedule your next validation.
There's an error in the OP, I guess it should be flips  Roll Eyes just saying.
Looks quite interesting, I think I will try this out, can have my invite code PM'ed here?
Are those invite codes, the only method for keeping nodes unique or the system is also looking at IP addresses, stuff like that?

Invitation code sent. Please check your PM.
Invitation code itself doesn’t make your node unique. It allows you to take part in the online validation party.
If you manage to solve flips in time your node becomes validated as unique.



i am proud that i finally found the time to make it three times in a row to the validation time window without beeing terminated Wink 
Congrats!!

Sounds good, but... - how can you be sure that those new PoP-Accounts dont concentrate all in the same fabric halls in china again?  Or - more likely when it comes to cost of human work - this time in nigeria or other countries known for their strong "airdrop mafia", monopolizing multiple accounts which are keeped alive by random third world workers from the street?
Those kind of bad actors allready seem to have killed mannabase.com (a centralized so called cryptoubi-project of 2016/2017, lacking sybil restistance) with thousands of fake-accounts, even while mannabase was worth nearly nothing on fiat exchange.

Bitcoin has a strong economic incentive to concentrate mining in the areas with cheap electricity. This makes other players leave.
Essentially there is no equal access to mining. The fact is the mining is the closed club both for PoW and PoS.

In contrast PoP allows for the equal access to minining.
Nothing else is needed to prove your humanness and uniqness.

You're right, there is no way to fight against fabric halls in China. But good news is the bad actors can only grow extensively. They have to coordinate more and more workers at the same place at the same time. Coordination costs might grow nonlineral.

Ubic.network has different interesting approach to avoid sybil attacks, using proof of e-passport and thereby proof of nationality - maybe you could distribute your idena-PoP more globaly, using something like UBIC as an optional second layer?

Crypto UBI is one of the possible use cases for Idena since the list of validated participants is shared on the blockchain.
Any centralized service can use it for its purposes.




Is there anything the mined coins can be used for? What's the economy behind the coin? Why should anyone actually *use* Idena?

Idena democritizes mining: any person on the planet (who able to solve flips) can mine the coins.

But what is the economy behind the coin?

Consider the use case of Sybil-protected maketing on the blockchain
1. Assume that Idena participants voluntarily agree to consume ads published on the blockchain by an advertiser.
2. However such an advertiser has to burn coins in order to reach a certain group of users attention.
3. Burnt coins are removed from the total supply. Thus multiple advertisers competing with each others will always have a shortage of coins.
4. Due to that assumption the newly minted coins which are equaly distributed amoung the people and can be sold to advertisers.
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