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Author Topic: Idena is the first Proof-of-Person Blockchain  (Read 44087 times)
~ KiD ~
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March 31, 2020, 11:20:20 AM
 #801

~ snip ~

I agree with you. The non-spent invites rewards shouldn't be in place.
Also with each update I don't see any community consensus (voting), they just release the updates and that's it.

As for the newbies, I agree too, that they need to start from 1 flip. Quality vs Quantity. I had a lot of bad flips in the Short session and I was very confused. At least to put only Humans flip on the short session as for the long session I will take care to report all bad flips, those with numbers and letters, and the ones which have no relations with the words. I found also a lot of flips with no story, just some random images with the words but which didn't told me any story.

I hear all the time, that the project is community driven, but is not since you have no voting power.

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April 01, 2020, 12:17:30 AM
 #802

...
2. Cut the flips for the newbies.
...
About flips, once you get all the info and you pass a validation, let's give the newbies 1 epoch the right to do 1 flip. If they do it and gets consense, let's let them do 2. If 2 are good 3. If all 3 are good, 4 and they are verified. 5 as humans.

I totally agree, especially that making bad flips by newbie is harmful not only to them but also or even more for advanced users who, by getting one or two flips with dragons, may lose their status or even whole identity. While increasing the number of flips for humans it would also be worth to increase the number of word pairs (at least to 12-15) because they are often so senselessly related that creating an obvious story for everyone is really difficult task.

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April 01, 2020, 07:37:01 PM
 #803

I made a proposal to limit the timing to max of 13 minutes per both short and long sessions with additional increase in short session period to (2.5-3 minutes) with reducing long session to (10 minutes) that will give total of 13 minutes for validation event ,benefits will affect all identities specially newbie\candidates to look more in bad flips  , also will the reduce the possibilities of running two nodes by one person ,  please vote and share your ideas in the below link :

https://github.com/idena-network/idena-desktop/issues/228
cryptovigi
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April 01, 2020, 07:51:46 PM
 #804

I made a proposal to limit the timing to max of 13 minutes per both short and long sessions with additional increase in short session period to (2.5-3 minutes) with reducing long session to (10 minutes) that will give total of 13 minutes for validation event ,benefits will affect all identities specially newbie\candidates to look more in bad flips  , also will the reduce the possibilities of running two nodes by one person ,  please vote and share your ideas in the below link :

https://github.com/idena-network/idena-desktop/issues/228

Extending the time of a short session definitely won't reduce the possibilities of running two nodes by one person rather make it easier... Looking longer at senseless flips won't make them more meaningfull no matter if a newbie candidate or a human is looking at them...
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April 01, 2020, 10:20:08 PM
 #805

People will always try to profit from a system, the ideal of capitalism in general is to harness that sometimes apparent negative energy and make people work for it or at least have to expend more energy then the easier task of just being useful within the capital value system.    This line of thinking probably applies to crypto, its given people want to short cut a way to profit from just about any blockchain in existence.  Its not the exception, its the rule so just seems relevant to pop vs pos vs pow discussion imo.

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iHodler
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April 02, 2020, 06:19:23 AM
 #806

I made a proposal to limit the timing to max of 13 minutes per both short and long sessions with additional increase in short session period to (2.5-3 minutes) with reducing long session to (10 minutes) that will give total of 13 minutes for validation event ,benefits will affect all identities specially newbie\candidates to look more in bad flips  , also will the reduce the possibilities of running two nodes by one person ,  please vote and share your ideas in the below link :

https://github.com/idena-network/idena-desktop/issues/228

Extending the time of a short session definitely won't reduce the possibilities of running two nodes by one person rather make it easier... Looking longer at senseless flips won't make them more meaningfull no matter if a newbie candidate or a human is looking at them...

I agree that this will make it easier for the ones who are trying to run/validate 2 identities.

Better give Candidates less flips i.e. 4, to newbies 5, or even less 3 and 4. And keep the same flip numbers for Verifed and Humans

I don't know..
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April 02, 2020, 10:30:39 AM
 #807

I made a proposal to limit the timing to max of 13 minutes per both short and long sessions with additional increase in short session period to (2.5-3 minutes) with reducing long session to (10 minutes) that will give total of 13 minutes for validation event ,benefits will affect all identities specially newbie\candidates to look more in bad flips  , also will the reduce the possibilities of running two nodes by one person ,  please vote and share your ideas in the below link :

https://github.com/idena-network/idena-desktop/issues/228

I don't like this proposition at all.
Long session should be solved slowly and not in rush. Some people can get up to 25 or more flips in long.
It can be shorter, but not 10 minutes.
Short session should NOT be extended, and I see no positive effect from this.

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Tytanowy Janusz
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April 02, 2020, 12:54:02 PM
 #808

but if you look at the explorer 45% of the minted coins for last 6 EPOCHS, goes to the foundation address.

What? 45%?



I can see 3600 in here as invitation rewards. That's 0.7% of minted coins (52k daily for 10 days epoch). Where did you get those 45% from?

But it is fair point that this wallet should not have rewards for not spended invitations but did he gets it? Show me proof on explorer because i see only "Invitation (1st validation)" rewards.

Extending the time of a short session definitely won't reduce the possibilities of running two nodes by one person rather make it easier... Looking longer at senseless flips won't make them more meaningfull no matter if a newbie candidate or a human is looking at them...

Fair point. Short session should not be extended.

...
2. Cut the flips for the newbies.

Fair point. 1 after first validation, 2 after second, 3 after third (or 1 flip until you get given % of good flips) seams to be better for network but:

1- creating a flip is not only a privilege but also an obligation. They are necessary for network to exists, and we can't push this obligation to humans only. Doing 10 flips each epoch is not fun at all especially that reward for each flip is not encouraging (~25 DNA).
2- bad flips does not reach consensus - should not harm you and in 90% cases it works. It does not work in 10% cases because there is not enough validators for each flip - that should change with network grow.

Your point has advantages and disadvantages and to be hones i don't know if i would rather stick with current situation or force to change it.

For me more important is fact that candidate is taking part in long session... How is it possible that someone that did not proof to be a human even once can vote if flip is correct or not?

Quote
He made the minimum solving score for short flips to be over 90.74% speaking that the humans need 92%

Fair point. It is based on the assumption of a fixed number of invitations. If you give all humans 2 than there is fixed amount for verified and 90.74% satisfies the equation with 1 unknown. I agree with you that it should be improved. Something like only humans with 10+ epoch old account get 2 invitations or humans with +96% score. That should give more space for validated accounts and push 90.74% much lower.

@Railai rest of your post is complaining about lack of information, bad admins and throwing logs under newbies feet etc.
I didn't see better community on any coin. The mere fact that with the receipt of an invitation in most cases means getting a private mentor is something amazing. I spend hours for my invitees explaining how it works. As i can see you do that too.
Those logs under newbies feet are necessary to prevent attacks in which you beg for as many invitations as you can and go random validating half of your accounts and mine for whole epoch.



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April 02, 2020, 05:13:57 PM
 #809

I have a question, I have not understood how the wallet works, I entered the invitation code, then what should I do? do I have to buy a certain amount of tokens to put on a node?
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April 02, 2020, 07:18:34 PM
Last edit: April 02, 2020, 11:44:05 PM by cryptovigi
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 #810

I have a question, I have not understood how the wallet works, I entered the invitation code, then what should I do? do I have to buy a certain amount of tokens to put on a node?


First, you should take a few minutes to read about the project. Hopefuly you like it and don't waste the invitation code you've been given. All the necessary information you can  on their website http://idena.io    Especially recommend the FAQ section: https://idena.io/?view=faq#faq-start-1

since you already have a synchronized customer and entered the invitation code, wait for the validation time (10.04.2020, 14:30:00 CET your local validation time you see in your client), go through the flip tasks and start to mine ...


Fair point. 1 after first validation, 2 after second, 3 after third (or 1 flip until you get given % of good flips) seams to be better for network but:

1- creating a flip is not only a privilege but also an obligation. They are necessary for network to exists, and we can't push this obligation to humans only. Doing 10 flips each epoch is not fun at all especially that reward for each flip is not encouraging (~25 DNA).
Fully agreed...



2- bad flips does not reach consensus - should not harm you and in 90% cases it works. It does not work in 10% cases because there is not enough validators for each flip - that should change with network grow.

Not sure about this one especially about this 90% people getting bad flip very often decide to chose one randomly so the chance to not reaching consensus is closer to 50% than 90% I have example from my own validation look one identity decided (probably shot randomly) that flip is ok:

 


flip got consesnus (week) but 5 from 10 identities 50% made "wrong" answer and didn't got validation point

another example - last validation story - 3 pictures of tweets and one of Donald Trump - very bad flip but even it was reported by >80% users it still got consensus and some people/identities was harmed....



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April 03, 2020, 06:46:17 PM
 #811

where can I try to get an invite?

I would like to run a node an become a validator
Idena is a very interesting type of blockchain

If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry.
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April 04, 2020, 12:53:05 AM
 #812

where can I try to get an invite?

I would like to run a node an become a validator
Idena is a very interesting type of blockchain

I won't send a PM anymore, but I am publicly saying that I will sell the invite for 50 bucks in crypto, DNA/BTC/ETH. I might be one of the only that publicly is agree with selling invites.

If you don't want to buy the invite I will accept as collateral 500 DNA until you get verified, any of the discord/tg admins are ok with me to hold the money.

She's crazy like a fool.
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April 04, 2020, 04:18:46 AM
 #813

Can I add a password for transfer? It will be much safer.
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April 04, 2020, 07:49:54 AM
Last edit: April 04, 2020, 08:50:15 AM by Tytanowy Janusz
 #814

I have example from my own validation look one identity decided (probably shot randomly) that flip is ok:

Let me paraphrase- "You are wrong with 90% success of system because I can find one extreme case"  just kiddingSmiley

I don't know how this flip (5:5) get "weak consesus" if it's 100% no consensus. It is impossible to shuffle answer better. It's network bug not something that we should base our discussion at.  In most cases it looks like that:



"no consensus" saved this node in 5 times out of 6 (random SS). - I'm taking about 4 out of 4 score (4 good answers and 1 bad flip).

edit: I've checked and this 1 out of 6 that "no consensus" did not saved this node (4 out of 5 score) was in fact his fault. Flip was easy.

I even seen nodes with score 2 good out of 2 (means that he received 3 bad flips and still passed with 100% score)

Weak consensus is when flip has <75% (or 70%) - https://scan.idena.io/flip?flip=bafkreigelddbvctxovmbtznouq4ppmhpjl6xdkdsgpn3rsr7tohg3owwza this one has weak consensus with 2 wrong answers and 4 good.

No consensus flip is a flip with score ~60% like this one https://scan.idena.io/flip?flip=bafkreifo3zjlkgxknk6z6a3u55rbhqfnsec25dohkfx6i5wy5z5q44buz4 5/8 = 62,5% - no consensus
https://scan.idena.io/flip?flip=bafkreialkwcdcrqwcj6xwsxttxycij6hrgsirrl2dwjvawuuz7g5o7shyy - 57%
I don't know why 50% get "weak consensus". In fact there is no way of getting worse score. Report that to Andrew. I'm sure he will address this issue and fix in next node upgrade.

flip got consesnus (week) but 5 from 10 identities 50% made "wrong" answer and didn't got validation point



With weak consensus you are getting 0.5 point even with wrong answer. So you can have 3 good flips and 3 "extreme cases" fail all of them (going random you should pass at least 1) and still get 75%.

another example - last validation story - 3 pictures of tweets and one of Donald Trump - very bad flip but even it was reported by >80% users it still got consensus and some people/identities was harmed....

There is a reason why each flips pass 2 separate test. Consensus and reports.
Reported Flip (f.e wrong keywords) can still be good to check if you are human or not (that's what consensus is for).


where can I try to get an invite?
I've send you my telegram id.
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April 04, 2020, 12:15:51 PM
 #815

If you do this, you'll be penalized. I'll report any flip that contains words or is numbered.  Wink
Penalty occurs only if mining doesn't work for more than an hour.
Or are you a developer and will you force penalties to miners you don't like ? That is how your decentralization works ? Then you will bury your coin with your own hands, because everyone will know about it.
And people do not like it when someone can manage their personal accounts.
And yet, people love money, not your stupid pictures, so
Guys, number flips!
Number in any way:
1,2,3,4
or
. .. ... ....
or
l ll lll lV
or
A B C D

Don't worry about the developers.
Now we have to solve 6 flips, not 5. And it will take more time!
Let's help each other, do not report such flips.
We are all here to mine more coins and make more money.

You can also tell your flip story in advance here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5228079
so that everyone understands your story before validation starts.

If you do what you want, however you suffer the consequences.

And I don't know what I'm doing answering a fucking troll so say hello to my ignore list.
Yes, I will do such flips as I want.
And you underestimate human greed.
People want more coins, not to solve your stupid pictures.
Each time there will be more and more people who will number the pictures. Because it is natural and logical. But sitting at PC and guessing pictures is some kind of degradation.
And if you, developers, will forcefully pressure (block accounts, penalize, etc) those, who number the flips, you will not have miners at all.
Agree with you.
The whole world is developing AI.
Integrates it in all spheres of human life: medicine, construction, food production, transport management and so on, and so on, and so on.
But here comes a coin IDENA we must prove that we are not AI.
What for ?!
AI is progress. Sitting at the computer and manually solving pictures is a degradation for sure.
Mining of this coin is in no way connected with the flips solving.
Numbering pictures in flips is the best way

New validation in 6 days!
Don't forget to number your flips.
If some weird persons want to report numbered flips, lets do the same - report non-numbered flips.
AI is future! No needs to do anti-AI coins.
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April 04, 2020, 03:23:58 PM
 #816

Can I add a password for transfer? It will be much safer.

There is still no option for password for sending transaction.
I guess that is related with sending flips also, but it would be good to have password fro regular transactions.
I think it was suggested to developers before.

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April 04, 2020, 04:41:52 PM
 #817

where can I try to get an invite?

I would like to run a node an become a validator
Idena is a very interesting type of blockchain

I won't send a PM anymore, but I am publicly saying that I will sell the invite for 50 bucks in crypto, DNA/BTC/ETH. I might be one of the only that publicly is agree with selling invites.

If you don't want to buy the invite I will accept as collateral 500 DNA until you get verified, any of the discord/tg admins are ok with me to hold the money.

good, I will not send you a PM either, cause there are a few already who send me a PM, and they will send me the invite without a charge
so, thx for your generous offer, keep your invites for some donkey, you'll find one (hope naaat)

If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry.
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April 05, 2020, 12:59:54 AM
 #818

Selling invites is still a thing?

Well let me just point out to what anyone can do while selling invite:

1. Seller sells you an invite, you activate, all is good, you transfer crypto
2. Seller terminates your candidate status, you lose your invite and your crypto
3. Seller opens new fake account and rinse and repeat...

If anyone wants to risk, this is what you can expect...

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April 05, 2020, 01:48:51 AM
Last edit: April 05, 2020, 04:06:58 AM by Tyttifructawy Anus
 #819

2. Seller terminates your candidate status, you lose your invite and your crypto

speak more precisely, do not mislead people
you lose your STAKE, not all your CRYPTO...

or maybe you have an explanation why developers  intentionally do not protect newbies and candidates from termination ??

and what is happening with the price now is the quintessence of this coin
https://i.imgur.com/UdOoPOA.jpg
200 Satoshi just around the corner
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April 05, 2020, 02:54:12 AM
Last edit: April 05, 2020, 04:44:47 AM by Tyttifructawy Anus
 #820

Why is this project not decentralized (as stated on the main site):

1. You cannot dispose of your property. You generate (mining) invitations, but you cannot sell them, you can only give them out for free. Because the developers intentionally do not disable the termination of newbies and candidates.
2. Candidates and newbies are always at risk of being "killed".
3. Developers urge to kill invitations from those people who make bad flips (bad in their opinion).
Here are some screenshots.
One of the main developers, as well as the admin, calls for killing those who make bad flips:
https://i.imgur.com/ltADmRh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UBBXxUX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Aiw9SV1.jpg
4. Developers urge to send reports on bad flips - flips with porn, with politics and so on. But what about the freedom of speech mentioned on the main site?
5. Incredibly huge premine.
As a result, for each of these points, you depend on the third party. Is this decentralization? No. This is totalitarian control.


Why do I find this project dumb?
Because we are obliged to engage in stupidity.
1. Artificial intelligence (AI) is our future. Why create things that prevent it?
2. Developers prohibit numbering flips. This, by the way, is again a reference to the violation of decentralization and freedom of speech.

Let's clarify some things.
We are all different people.
Different nationalities, different cultures, different logics, different imaginations, and so on and so on and so forth.
One person creates a flip and considers it quite logical, but another person may simply not understand it. And this is natural. We are all different.
But then confusion arises.
And a similar mess appeared thousands of years ago. And then SMART people came up with numbers. One for all. People simplified their lives and agreed to count the numbers so that there was order.

But in this coin, people are calling us to the opposite and want some kind of “quality flips” ...

It is a step backward, not progress.
But does regression make sense?
Only if it’s just scam, and all these flips, it’s just to attract more people for a "fun game" of pictures, but in fact another pump-dump scheme with premine.
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