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Author Topic: Idena is the first Proof-of-Person Blockchain  (Read 44088 times)
JoenNL
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April 05, 2020, 10:17:06 AM
 #821

2. Seller terminates your candidate status, you lose your invite and your crypto

speak more precisely, do not mislead people
you lose your STAKE, not all your CRYPTO...

or maybe you have an explanation why developers  intentionally do not protect newbies and candidates from termination ??

and what is happening with the price now is the quintessence of this coin
fak what a picture size
200 Satoshi just around the corner

Well I think we can all agree (looking at this topic but also at the discord), something went wrong, this coin totally not user friendly.

Lets start with the stability of your network, its almost a fact that u MUST rent a virtual server somewhere (something nobody in cryptoworld like, because of something like security) as almost no homenetwork can handle this kind of traffic (i am using a gbit fiber connection, high end HOME-network hardware, it can handle 10 minutes uptime, then my complete network crash).

The way how to ''earn'' coins is just redicilous, creating some ''questions with pictures'' and i dunno what else.

I know there are some smart people behind it and some kind of the network stuff is also something a smartass from ETH is looking at. But i think everybody agree; the way how the network works, is a failure and not ready for public.

So the good things i can see from this project:
Its something fresh
Idea is great

Bad thing:
It's simply dont work as it should
Workout is very bad

This coin is simply not ready for public and should be in a closed alpha state. Now i read people are screaming to eachother with words like: ur newby so move away, this coin is not for newbies blabla.
Fact is: it should be for everybody, so also for newbies.
Now i am here in bitcointalk since day 1, reading a lot of projects and i stepped in into a lot of projects (dont look at the create date of my profile, as my other account is hacked during the big BTT hack). And everybody will agree: a cryptocoin should be able to use for everybody, thats the major subject for all projects. So instead of calling people newbies, point the finger to yourself.

Tytanowy Janusz
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April 05, 2020, 10:30:35 AM
Last edit: April 05, 2020, 11:06:19 AM by Tytanowy Janusz
 #822

snip

You can use it (f.e transfer of value - like bitcoin) without validation. Just like any other coin. Transfers are fast and cheap. But if you want to mine you have 3 choices:

1-invest huge amount of money into POS shitcoins for like 5-10% annual roi
2-invest 3000$ in antminer or GPUs
3-spend 20 min once per 11 days to solve flips.

There is no coin that is more miner-friendly. There is no coin that you can mine with such low entry barrier. There is no coin that is more decentralized (1000 uniqe nodes with equal votes validates your transaction)

BTW: https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1246567822974750722 Vitalik is bullish on IDENA.
realRioda
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April 05, 2020, 10:40:23 AM
 #823

Well I think we can all agree (looking at this topic but also at the discord), something went wrong, this coin totally not user friendly.

Lets start with the stability of your network, its almost a fact that u MUST rent a virtual server somewhere (something nobody in cryptoworld like, because of something like security) as almost no homenetwork can handle this kind of traffic (i am using a gbit fiber connection, high end HOME-network hardware, it can handle 10 minutes uptime, then my complete network crash).

Hello Joen, I agree that is not user friendly, or I would say it has learning curve. Its like nothing out there before, so more learning.
Still we have to remind ourselves that idena network is still a experimental thing. And I very much expect when we reach version 1.x that it will be user frendlier. Node version as of time of writing is  0.19.1.
Long way to go.

Gigabit fibre connection and you have problems? That is really something. I know for a fact guy that runs 2 nodes in home ADSL 10/1. I run 2 nodes on 15/15 link, not a hickup. Also this home quarantine thing made us use all the link bandwith, all family members working from home and kids watching youtube.
Not a burn, you should check your router or ISP.

notblox1
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April 05, 2020, 11:11:31 AM
 #824

I just love when wannabe crypto experts and trolls join forces and pretend that they know something and act all smart...  Roll Eyes

5 days until next Idena validation.
Be ready



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LaaMos Seeth
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April 05, 2020, 12:06:47 PM
 #825

Why is this project not decentralized (as stated on the main site):

1. You cannot dispose of your property. You generate (mining) invitations, but you cannot sell them, you can only give them out for free. Because the developers intentionally do not disable the termination of newbies and candidates.
2. Candidates and newbies are always at risk of being "killed".
3. Developers urge to kill invitations from those people who make bad flips (bad in their opinion).
Here are some screenshots.
One of the main developers, as well as the admin, calls for killing those who make bad flips:
https://i.imgur.com/ltADmRh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UBBXxUX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Aiw9SV1.jpg
4. Developers urge to send reports on bad flips - flips with porn, with politics and so on. But what about the freedom of speech mentioned on the main site?
5. Incredibly huge premine.
As a result, for each of these points, you depend on the third party. Is this decentralization? No. This is totalitarian control.


Why do I find this project dumb?
Because we are obliged to engage in stupidity.
1. Artificial intelligence (AI) is our future. Why create things that prevent it?
2. Developers prohibit numbering flips. This, by the way, is again a reference to the violation of decentralization and freedom of speech.

Let's clarify some things.
We are all different people.
Different nationalities, different cultures, different logics, different imaginations, and so on and so on and so forth.
One person creates a flip and considers it quite logical, but another person may simply not understand it. And this is natural. We are all different.
But then confusion arises.
And a similar mess appeared thousands of years ago. And then SMART people came up with numbers. One for all. People simplified their lives and agreed to count the numbers so that there was order.

But in this coin, people are calling us to the opposite and want some kind of “quality flips” ...

It is a step backward, not progress.
But does regression make sense?
Only if it’s just scam, and all these flips, it’s just to attract more people for a "fun game" of pictures, but in fact another pump-dump scheme with premine.
That make sense.
I ask them to give me invitations for two epochs already.
And they direct me to the flip school!
If you create good flips, you get an invitation!
What ??!
School to create flips?
Are you out of your mind ??)))
bingbinglee
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April 05, 2020, 12:25:19 PM
 #826

Why is this project not decentralized (as stated on the main site):

1. You cannot dispose of your property. You generate (mining) invitations, but you cannot sell them, you can only give them out for free. Because the developers intentionally do not disable the termination of newbies and candidates.
2. Candidates and newbies are always at risk of being "killed".
3. Developers urge to kill invitations from those people who make bad flips (bad in their opinion).
Here are some screenshots.
One of the main developers, as well as the admin, calls for killing those who make bad flips:
https://i.imgur.com/ltADmRh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UBBXxUX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Aiw9SV1.jpg
4. Developers urge to send reports on bad flips - flips with porn, with politics and so on. But what about the freedom of speech mentioned on the main site?
5. Incredibly huge premine.
As a result, for each of these points, you depend on the third party. Is this decentralization? No. This is totalitarian control.


Why do I find this project dumb?
Because we are obliged to engage in stupidity.
1. Artificial intelligence (AI) is our future. Why create things that prevent it?
2. Developers prohibit numbering flips. This, by the way, is again a reference to the violation of decentralization and freedom of speech.

Let's clarify some things.
We are all different people.
Different nationalities, different cultures, different logics, different imaginations, and so on and so on and so forth.
One person creates a flip and considers it quite logical, but another person may simply not understand it. And this is natural. We are all different.
But then confusion arises.
And a similar mess appeared thousands of years ago. And then SMART people came up with numbers. One for all. People simplified their lives and agreed to count the numbers so that there was order.

But in this coin, people are calling us to the opposite and want some kind of “quality flips” ...

It is a step backward, not progress.
But does regression make sense?
Only if it’s just scam, and all these flips, it’s just to attract more people for a "fun game" of pictures, but in fact another pump-dump scheme with premine.
That make sense.
I ask them to give me invitations for two epochs already.
And they direct me to the flip school!
If you create good flips, you get an invitation!
What ??!
School to create flips?
Are you out of your mind ??)))


FYI - I don't know where you have been in between 2 epochs but when I asked for an invite, I did it on discord and eventually got it in two days. Remember invites gets you rewards if the invitee validates, so there is no point in anyone not giving you an invite.

However, inviting someone who barely understands or even takes the time to understand what makes a Flip turing hard anyways; you risk inviting someone who wouldn't bother making a flip which is good enough for a consensus. And when bad flips show up during a validation - guess what it ends up making a newbie getting killed.

Encouraging you to join flip-school channel in discord is just asking you to show that you know the basics of the network and will not endanger the rest of the newbies.
rendravolt
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April 05, 2020, 05:57:38 PM
 #827

One tweet from Vitalik Buterin was very effective for pumping prices in the last few hours. Cheesy

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notblox1
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April 05, 2020, 06:57:04 PM
 #828

I wonder how many alt accounts this forum trolls have.
I am all for discussion, but newbies with multiple account are just plain boring.

Can you start Bitcoin or Ethereum mining as newbie?
NO.
You have to learn how to do it.

Some people want to write before even learning basic letters, and then cry like babies.

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realRioda
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April 06, 2020, 07:28:18 AM
 #829

I wonder how many alt accounts this forum trolls have.

Real mature person... Making fun of someone else's name  Huh

Tytanowy Janusz - valued member
Tyttifructawy Anus - fake account

I understand now why sybil troll accounts are against Idena, well it will be the end of them.

iHodler
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April 06, 2020, 01:11:09 PM
 #830

One tweet from Vitalik Buterin was very effective for pumping prices in the last few hours. Cheesy

Well, the price were above the BTC0.00002500 level back on March, so I don't think Vitalik's tweed made some major move.

I personally think it just recovered from the dip.
Railai
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April 06, 2020, 01:13:06 PM
 #831

One tweet from Vitalik Buterin was very effective for pumping prices in the last few hours. Cheesy

Well, the price were above the BTC0.00002500 level back on March, so I don't think Vitalik's tweed made some major move.

I personally think it just recovered from the dip.

I think it did, look, now it's steady arround 2100 sats, with a lot of transactions coming out of qtrade to dna private addresses

She's crazy like a fool.
frenulum
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April 06, 2020, 02:40:13 PM
 #832

I've been investigating Idena for a couple of weeks, and so far I really like it.

Cool concept, fun and easy to get involved. Also a very small cap with lots of potential for growth.
It's not perfect, we're still in very early days, but it's exciting to watch it grow.

Some of the criticism is warranted. I do think more can be done to improve transparency, and the whole flip thing could be made more elegant. Maybe this will happen in the future.

But raging against the team and calling it a scam, is just silly. And complaining about "having to prove you're human" is absurd. Other blockchains require you to prove your STAKE, or to prove WORK. Simply acknowledging your unique existence is not a huge ask  Cheesy

If you don't like the project, don't get involved. Trying to game the system by creating numbered flips is beyond stupid. Your flips will be reported, your account will be punished, you will not gain rewards, you will simply waste time for nothing.


Jan 2018 recommendations: HST, ETN, HTML, EOS
frenulum
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April 06, 2020, 03:24:30 PM
 #833

This line of thinking probably applies to crypto, its given people want to short cut a way to profit from just about any blockchain in existence.  Its not the exception, its the rule so just seems relevant to pop vs pos vs pow discussion imo.

Indeed. I think this is why STEEM was so flawed from the beginning, even though the concept was really interesting. It was attractive for spammers and scammers, and like a sinking boat, every time one hole was plugged, another seemed to appear.

IDENA needs to prove, in time, that it offers opportunity for everyone, but is somewhat meritocratic, and resistant to the most cynical of human urges. There may need to be some tweaking along the way.

Jan 2018 recommendations: HST, ETN, HTML, EOS
reb0rn21
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April 06, 2020, 04:37:32 PM
 #834

As far i can tell STEEM was 99% ninja mined so 100% centralized....... at least for IDEAN you know its 101% decentralized

On point how would it  behave, devs even now has almost no control, consensus of people have it, will it be good or bad depend on majority vote that will start very soon...

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Proof-of-Person Blockchain

Join the mining of the first human-centric
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LaaMos Seeth
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April 07, 2020, 03:23:42 AM
 #835

As far i can tell STEEM was 99% ninja mined so 100% centralized....... at least for IDEAN you know its 101% decentralized

On point how would it  behave, devs even now has almost no control, consensus of people have it, will it be good or bad depend on majority vote that will start very soon...
That's all what you can say ?
It's 101% decentralized just because you said it ? Without any proves ?

Why is this project not decentralized (as stated on the main site):

1. You cannot dispose of your property. You generate (mining) invitations, but you cannot sell them, you can only give them out for free. Because the developers intentionally do not disable the termination of newbies and candidates.
2. Candidates and newbies are always at risk of being "killed".
3. Developers urge to kill invitations from those people who make bad flips (bad in their opinion).
Here are some screenshots.
One of the main developers, as well as the admin, calls for killing those who make bad flips:
https://i.imgur.com/ltADmRh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UBBXxUX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Aiw9SV1.jpg
4. Developers urge to send reports on bad flips - flips with porn, with politics and so on. But what about the freedom of speech mentioned on the main site?
5. Incredibly huge premine.
As a result, for each of these points, you depend on the third party. Is this decentralization? No. This is totalitarian control.
Is it lie ? No.
Especially point 3, where you, as a schoolboy, with CAPS LOCK and "!!!" scream about "killing" users ))
101% decentralized...

And even that’s true ....
Why do I find this project dumb?
Because we are obliged to engage in stupidity.
1. Artificial intelligence (AI) is our future. Why create things that prevent it?
2. Developers prohibit numbering flips. This, by the way, is again a reference to the violation of decentralization and freedom of speech.

Let's clarify some things.
We are all different people.
Different nationalities, different cultures, different logics, different imaginations, and so on and so on and so forth.
One person creates a flip and considers it quite logical, but another person may simply not understand it. And this is natural. We are all different.
But then confusion arises.
And a similar mess appeared thousands of years ago. And then SMART people came up with numbers. One for all. People simplified their lives and agreed to count the numbers so that there was order.

But in this coin, people are calling us to the opposite and want some kind of “quality flips” ...

It is a step backward, not progress.
But does regression make sense?
Only if it’s just scam, and all these flips, it’s just to attract more people for a "fun game" of pictures, but in fact another pump-dump scheme with premine.
Who cares about your Sybil attack ??
How many coins suffer from this attack daily or have suffered before?
Not a single one.

Even Bitcoin created in 2009 doesn't needs this protection...
Quote
Sybil attacks are avoided in Bitcoin by requiring block generation ability to be proportional to computational power available through the proof-of-work mechanism. That way, an adversary is limited in how many blocks they can produce. This provides strong cryptographic guarantees of Sybil resilience.
Tytanowy Janusz
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April 07, 2020, 01:44:11 PM
Last edit: April 07, 2020, 03:23:29 PM by Tytanowy Janusz
 #836

That's all what you can say ?
It's 101% decentralized just because you said it ? Without any proves ?
1300 uniqe nodes with equal right to vote and equal power of vote. Name more decentralized coin. Bitcoin's 4 biggest pools has 50% of network hashrate - 50% of votes. Idena is 160 times more decentralized than bitcoin is.

Is it lie ? No.
Especially point 3, where you, as a schoolboy, with CAPS LOCK and "!!!" scream about "killing" users ))
101% decentralized...
Is it lie? YES. Reb0rn is not dev. Its telegram admin that write his own opinion. You know why? Because this project is decentralized. Everyone is doing what's the best for network in his opinion and is free to convince others to do the same. If its shitty suggestion (like numbering flips) than none will fallow. If it's killing toxic members than some nodes might fallow. Why convincing others? Because this is decentralized network and 1 person ... no matter how rich (POS) or how much earth supply he is able to burn on guessing random number (POW) ... is not able to change/harm it.

Even Bitcoin created in 2009 doesn't needs this protection...
Quote
Sybil attacks are avoided in Bitcoin by requiring block generation ability to be proportional to computational power available through the proof-of-work mechanism. That way, an adversary is limited in how many blocks they can produce. This provides strong cryptographic guarantees of Sybil resilience.

Bitcoin's sybil attack protection is called Proof of Work - who waste more energy wins. Idena sybil attack protection is called Proof of Person - every person has equal vote.

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April 08, 2020, 01:02:51 AM
 #837

Any news on development of the mobile node?
Also, how does the messenger app will work in terms of sending/receiving data? For instance, you can send a large file on telegram to another person without a problem but how will idena address this and is it even possible to compete with the top centralized messaging apps?
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April 08, 2020, 07:26:17 AM
Last edit: April 08, 2020, 08:10:29 AM by LaaMos Seeth
 #838

That's all what you can say ?
It's 101% decentralized just because you said it ? Without any proves ?
1300 uniqe nodes with equal right to vote and equal power of vote. Name more decentralized coin. Bitcoin's 4 biggest pools has 50% of network hashrate - 50% of votes. Idena is 160 times more decentralized than bitcoin is.
This is not true. And you know it.
Many users have 2 nodes in 2 virtual machines on the same PC. And there are those who have 3 nodes.
Therefore, really unique people, well, maybe 600.
Not a great achievement for a coin which is 2 years old.

Is it lie ? No.
Especially point 3, where you, as a schoolboy, with CAPS LOCK and "!!!" scream about "killing" users ))
101% decentralized...
Is it lie? YES. Reb0rn is not dev. Its telegram admin that write his own opinion. You know why? Because this project is decentralized. Everyone is doing what's the best for network in his opinion and is free to convince others to do the same. If its shitty suggestion (like numbering flips) than none will fallow. If it's killing toxic members than some nodes might fallow. Why convincing others? Because this is decentralized network and 1 person ... no matter how rich (POS) or how much earth supply he is able to burn on guessing random number (POW) ... is not able to change/harm it.
He is admin in the Telegram, admin in the discord ...
Are you 101% sure that he is not one of the developers?
I'm not sure.
The chance that he is one of the developers is very high...
Whatever, as admin - he is the official face of this coin, and not just a user. He needs to be more restrained in his statements.
But since no one has accurate data about whether he is a developer or not, lets correct point 3.
Why is this project not decentralized (as stated on the main site):

1. You cannot dispose of your property. You generate (mining) invitations, but you cannot sell them, you can only give them out for free. Because the developers intentionally do not disable the termination of newbies and candidates.
2. Candidates and newbies are always at risk of being "killed".
3. Official coin Administrator (maybe one of the Dev team) urge to kill invitations from those people who make bad flips (bad in their opinion).
Here are some screenshots.
Admin calls for killing those who make bad flips:
https://i.imgur.com/ltADmRh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UBBXxUX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Aiw9SV1.jpg
4. Developers urge to send reports on bad flips - flips with porn, with politics and so on. But what about the freedom of speech mentioned on the main site?
5. Incredibly huge premine.
As a result, for each of these points, you depend on the third party. Is this decentralization? No. This is totalitarian control.
And nothing has changed. All of these points still indicate that the actions of developers (and 101% Admin) contradict decentralization.
-All network users should have equal rights. There should not be anyone who can be "killed".
-There should be no censorship.
-You should have the full rights to dispose of your invitations, because this is your property. But the developers specifically limit you in your rights (to sell invitations), because they do not disable the "killing" of newcomers.

Even Bitcoin created in 2009 doesn't needs this protection...
Quote
Sybil attacks are avoided in Bitcoin by requiring block generation ability to be proportional to computational power available through the proof-of-work mechanism. That way, an adversary is limited in how many blocks they can produce. This provides strong cryptographic guarantees of Sybil resilience.

Bitcoin's sybil attack protection is called Proof of Work - who waste more energy wins. Idena sybil attack protection is called Proof of Person - every person has equal vote.
Who has 3 virtual machines with 3 nodes has 3 votes.
Also...
This huge amount of traffic from this coin...
10-15 gigabytes per day easily!
If you have a weak router - you need vps.
If you do not have unlimited traffic - you need vps.
If you have a weak provider - you need vps.

And how does this cancel the dullness of the idea of this coin?
The whole world, the whole scientific community develops Artificial Intelligence, and you begin to move in the opposite direction, which is called regression.
Why prove that you are a person, if all areas of life are automated more and more every day ??
Who needs to sit at the computer, spend time and solve these pictures?
Everything is said correctly...
Why do I find this project dumb?
Because we are obliged to engage in stupidity.
1. Artificial intelligence (AI) is our future. Why create things that prevent it?
2. Developers prohibit numbering flips. This, by the way, is again a reference to the violation of decentralization and freedom of speech.
Let's clarify some things.
We are all different people.
Different nationalities, different cultures, different logics, different imaginations, and so on and so on and so forth.
One person creates a flip and considers it quite logical, but another person may simply not understand it. And this is natural. We are all different.
But then confusion arises.
And a similar mess appeared thousands of years ago. And then SMART people came up with numbers. One for all. People simplified their lives and agreed to count the numbers so that there was order.
But in this coin, people are calling us to the opposite and want some kind of “quality flips” ...
It is a step backward, not progress.
But does regression make sense?
Only if it’s just scam, and all these flips, it’s just to attract more people for a "fun game" of pictures, but in fact another pump-dump scheme with premine.
People came up with numbers and numbering to live comfortably.
Your coin goes in the opposite direction, it makes it stupid.

But numbering can be smart.
You can number flips with emoticons, figures, lines, dots, the number of angles of a star, and anything else. Turn on fantasy.
But not just the numbers printed on the picture, which can be recognized by bots.

But it still makes no sense.
AI is the future. AI-resistant - not.
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April 08, 2020, 08:26:32 AM
 #839

If you so want to prove that you are a Person, not bots, to counter the Sybil attack, which no one is using and from which no coin has yet been harmed, how do you like this idea?

Remove these flips completely.
They are not needed.
We are really all different people with different cultures, different logic, different sense of humor, etc.
And actually it all reminds Google captcha and it annoys everyone and is outdated.

Take an example from Binance. The most modern and multi-functional trading platform.
But do they use Google captcha to protect against bots? No.
They use a Slide Captcha with puzzle.
https://www.geetest.com/en
So implement it in your coin instead of pictures.
Devs can leave the opportunity for users to create these puzzles themselves through the tools built into the wallet.
They can be done by the developers themselves. Or you can connect geetest website.
As you wish.
But the main thing, now in validations, there will be no misunderstanding what this flip means. And no numbering needs.
All people assemble puzzles the same way, regardless of cultural or any other differences.
And that’s all, no problem.
3-5 puzzles is enough.
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April 08, 2020, 09:21:33 AM
 #840

Any news on development of the mobile node?
Also, how does the messenger app will work in terms of sending/receiving data? For instance, you can send a large file on telegram to another person without a problem but how will idena address this and is it even possible to compete with the top centralized messaging apps?

Mobile node is currently out of the planned development. But mobile client is planned after marketing stuff is developed.
Read more here:
https://medium.com/idena/idena-community-report-current-state-and-next-steps-dce97a0e3034

As Idena uses IPFS for its storage, i guess that large files can be supported for future messaging app. But we won't know untill we get there.

If you want to stay in the loop with Idena and avoid all drama, all you need is to follow these two information sources:
- Official Telegram Announcments: https://t.me/IdenaAnnouncements
- Offical Medium blog: https://medium.com/@idena.network

And all their work is transparent in real time on github, you can see it every day when they work on something new. Other thing is if we (I for sure) can't make effort to learn to read all that code and what it means...

That way, you will for sure stay up to date with any relevant info about Idena.

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