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Author Topic: New Official AMT Thread  (Read 149437 times)
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AMT_miners (OP)
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May 23, 2014, 04:24:36 PM
 #1581

I will stay busy reading all those new links just posted, lots of good stuff therein,,,,
Did find the reason all are struggling, noone wanted to share info, till lately.
with a 6month lifespan on high end equiptment, they have no time to act like that.
Community shared it would have gone much faster.

Please read my related post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294235.msg6536840#msg6536840


Aside from that, if you are struggling with technical problems or want to discuss them, you should visit the above A1 DIY thread with better chances to meet other developers and get your issues resolved.


Cheers,
zefir


Thank you for assistance zefir and help. Zefir is of the few good hearted individuals within the bitcoin community that wanted to see bitcoin become something substantial for the world to use, rather than a 3 month roi on one's investment. He is an inspiration to this community and to us at AMT. Again thanks.
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May 23, 2014, 04:31:53 PM
 #1582

Won't disagree at all on the commodity aspect and I am at a loss to explain the poor designs. What, did they (Bitmine.ch) hire some interns with not even 1st year design experience to make these rigs? Roll Eyes

IP does matter. It matters very very much. IP is what will make one design work when others trying to use the same core parts don't work.

Bitmaintech will provide design guidelines if you want to use their chips but they will NOT give you their sales product designs. Same with Cointerra. Even Technobit licensed their board design to Bitmine/AMT. They did not just give it away and it is a damn safe bet that if Technobit sold systems vs modules/kits they would not have helped at all.


Well Cointerra sells their chips and will give you the reference design.  

It is actually a compelling deal... for $105,840  you get 525 chips.  Each chip is at 500GH/s nominal.

So if you were to build a farm.... $105K gets you  262 THs!   (Not including board manufacturing and power supplies)

Holy sh*t!   What they are saying is that you can build a 1THS for under $1,000.  

At $200 a chip in bulk.... they've considerably undercut Innosilicon at $45 per chip.  





Bitmine and AMT gave a reference design and its free as well. Its a two chips board which does in fact work.  We also have 200 bare boards if anyone would like to purchase these bare boards and or chips from us, and we can cut a deal that will beat out cointerra any day.

Furthermore, its not that the miners dont work, its that the manufacture we chose to build to miners didnt do the job well. Because bitmine produces machines that work, and using their same model of bulk purchasing in order cut costs, we chose to do the same.And we trusted a manufacturer which didn't/couldn't get the job right,we're in the position. sitting around boxes of bad boards trying to figure out how to get them to work again. Lets take some pictures..
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May 23, 2014, 04:44:52 PM
 #1583

@AMT

If you have any other details or documentation on the drivers that could be of use? Or resources, I am looking at the thread posted by zefir to figure out the HWreset. I did suggest another method that MIGHT work and that would be converting each SPI into its own USB channel SPI/USB. This MIGHT get around the problem. Its a dirty workaround. basically create dedicated channels for each card that extends using USB to SPI connectors. This will address the potenital backplane issue and possibly allow for the cards to work properly. Of course there is still the driver issue with HWresets. I am looking at that now to see if I can figure it out. Based on various conversations I had I started to suspect this was the issue for a number of boards. I just have to learn the needed info to actually fix it.

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May 23, 2014, 05:05:47 PM
 #1584

... nice timing on this blog post. Deals with design verification while under the gun... http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/tales-from-the-cube/4430374/The-need-to-succeed?elq=ff788031dff34ef49b5ab56ebef3a41b&elqCampaignId=17206

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May 23, 2014, 05:31:24 PM
Last edit: May 23, 2014, 06:58:36 PM by NotFuzzyWarm
 #1585

<snip>
And we trusted a manufacturer which didn't/couldn't get the job right,we're in the position. sitting around boxes of bad boards trying to figure out how to get them to work again. Lets take some pictures..
Once I see some examples of what was done wrong, assuming the various connections are correct then at worst it will involve just making sure the right parts are where they belong, are the correct value vs what they say (or I feel they should be) and are soldered properly. Especially the A1 chips for both power feed and thermal reasons. Green mask errors can be addressed several ways, just need to make sure the A1 thermal contact is maintained. If there are signal/power noise/ripple issues they usually can be negated. Safe bet that rework will be needed.

As for cladding thickness and problems arising from it - we'll see wassup there and what can be done. Maybe run in eco-mode but provide another blade to make up for the lower hash rate? Would probably be a better alternative vs scrapping them.

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May 23, 2014, 05:32:30 PM
 #1586

@AMT

If you have any other details or documentation on the drivers that could be of use? Or resources, I am looking at the thread posted by zefir to figure out the HWreset. I did suggest another method that MIGHT work and that would be converting each SPI into its own USB channel SPI/USB. This MIGHT get around the problem. Its a dirty workaround. basically create dedicated channels for each card that extends using USB to SPI connectors. This will address the potenital backplane issue and possibly allow for the cards to work properly. Of course there is still the driver issue with HWresets. I am looking at that now to see if I can figure it out. Based on various conversations I had I started to suspect this was the issue for a number of boards. I just have to learn the needed info to actually fix it.

Zefir knows how to do it better then us. Also we havn't had too much success because our manufacturer may have sourced a different trimpot than the one which was due to be used. Tony, i'll send you an nda as well, that way you'll have the bomb and other design aspects as Fuzy and Isamhim.
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May 23, 2014, 05:37:22 PM
 #1587

Great thanks. That will work.

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May 23, 2014, 05:43:51 PM
 #1588

@AMT

If you have any other details or documentation on the drivers that could be of use? Or resources, I am looking at the thread posted by zefir to figure out the HWreset. I did suggest another method that MIGHT work and that would be converting each SPI into its own USB channel SPI/USB. This MIGHT get around the problem. Its a dirty workaround. basically create dedicated channels for each card that extends using USB to SPI connectors. This will address the potenital backplane issue and possibly allow for the cards to work properly. Of course there is still the driver issue with HWresets. I am looking at that now to see if I can figure it out. Based on various conversations I had I started to suspect this was the issue for a number of boards. I just have to learn the needed info to actually fix it.
Isn't USB how the original test boards in the dev thread communicated? Near the end of the thread someone mentions having to change  software from USB coms to using the GPOI link. Maybe Bitmine wanted to avoid USB hub issues? Power has been a historical sticking point there.

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May 23, 2014, 05:49:11 PM
 #1589

Possibly but its better than the alternative being dealt with now. Like I said its a workaround or stopgap, not a full fix. Its something to at least mitigate problems until a more reliable and permanent solution can be found. And the power demands would be fairly minor in comparison IMO. I could be wrong there.

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May 23, 2014, 06:23:29 PM
Last edit: May 23, 2014, 07:50:37 PM by NotFuzzyWarm
 #1590

Possibly but its better than the alternative being dealt with now. Like I said its a workaround or stopgap, not a full fix. Its something to at least mitigate problems until a more reliable and permanent solution can be found. And the power demands would be fairly minor in comparison IMO. I could be wrong there.
Was referring to the power the USB hub has to supply. BFL forum is full of stuff on that. I take it that the USB/SPI bridge is powered from the hub and some setups draw more than the 500ma/port is supposed to supply. My 2 lil' 10ghs Jala's pull 750ma per-port (and 60w per Jala off the +12v supply).

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May 23, 2014, 07:37:30 PM
 #1591


-snip-

Furthermore, its not that the miners dont work, its that the manufacture we chose to build to miners didnt do the job well. Because bitmine produces machines that work, and using their same model of bulk purchasing in order cut costs, we chose to do the same.And we trusted a manufacturer which didn't/couldn't get the job right,we're in the position. sitting around boxes of bad boards trying to figure out how to get them to work again. Lets take some pictures..


I'm sorry, I haven't been following the thread as diligently as I have wanted to in the past few days. What exactly went wrong with the manufacturer? Did they not make their parts correctly? I don't really want to go fishing through this thread and the last to find what everyone has said about them. Also, I don't understand what you mean by saying "its[sic] not that the miners dont[sic] work". When I received my miner, 3 of the 5 boards did not work at all.

Just trying to get caught up on what's been going on lately.

Thanks again,
Termonator61
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May 23, 2014, 07:41:06 PM
 #1592


-snip-

Furthermore, its not that the miners dont work, its that the manufacture we chose to build to miners didnt do the job well. Because bitmine produces machines that work, and using their same model of bulk purchasing in order cut costs, we chose to do the same.And we trusted a manufacturer which didn't/couldn't get the job right,we're in the position. sitting around boxes of bad boards trying to figure out how to get them to work again. Lets take some pictures..


I'm sorry, I haven't been following the thread as diligently as I have wanted to in the past few days. What exactly went wrong with the manufacturer? Did they not make their parts correctly? I don't really want to go fishing through this thread and the last to find what everyone has said about them. Also, I don't understand what you mean by saying "its[sic] not that the miners dont[sic] work". When I received my miner, 3 of the 5 boards did not work at all.

Just trying to get caught up on what's been going on lately.

Thanks again,
Termonator61
You name it, the contract mfgr did it: sourcing (questionable) parts from the grey market, parts in wrong places (caps vs resistors), copper possibly too thin for the current/thermal loads, no solder mask over some vias, other general assembly issues...

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May 23, 2014, 08:23:25 PM
 #1593

I am unfamiliar with the "grey market", could you elaborate?
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May 23, 2014, 08:32:46 PM
Last edit: May 24, 2014, 02:34:53 AM by NotFuzzyWarm
 #1594

I am unfamiliar with the "grey market", could you elaborate?
Unauthorized vendors/brokers selling components of unknown origin (not directly obtained from the maker and no paper trail). Think e-bay. The parts might be good and are cheaper because they are legit factory over runs (rare) or someones surplus inventory. But - they might not be and unless one checks every single piece used against spec there is NO assurance that it will be right.

Counterfeit electronic components is a very serious problem in all industries. If one is lucky they are just out-of-spec factory-rejects that failed testing and were improperly disposed of so someone dumpster dived for them to resell. There have even been cases of chips with no actual die in them! Most common is components which are an older version that have been relabeled to be a new one.

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May 23, 2014, 10:48:43 PM
Last edit: May 23, 2014, 11:07:43 PM by ISAWHIM
 #1595

Ok, one more frustrating issue...

Though this is not an issue with AMT, but with the software being used for mining-control.

The issue:

The number on the screen "Estimated hash-rate", is completely inaccurate, on many levels.
1: Several times the machine is running, it has run with over 50% "device rejections". Screen still indicates hashing-rate as "380 GHs", though the output is obviously only "190 GHs", as seen in the pools. (This is "rejected shares due to invalid, rejected at the RasPi".)
2: Every time, I have "hardware errors". They grow in time... 2 - 7 - 14 - 24 - 36 - 48... Still, the screen shows hashing-rate as "380 GHs", though the output is obviously only about "290 GHs", as seen in the pools. (This is "failed hardware, not responding, not hashing.)

Worst is when I have 50% hardware rejected, and 48 hardware errors, which brings the output to "145 GHs", (290/2=145). Still the screen indicates a healthy "380 GHs". (Not sure if hardware errors are accumulative, or "total", but it seems like a "total", in the final output.)

I am not sure what it is using to get the GHs calculations, but it is not actually calculating them from the output of the machine. Seems it may be estimating based on "single best share", for whatever share is still being hashed. Thus, as long as one fraction of one chip was running, it would indicate "380 GHs", though the output may actually be only "2.3 GHs".

Seems each hardware error is roughly 2.3 GHs, in the state of the cards, which I have. While the device-rejected percent is just a percent of what is being delivered down the chain, from non-failing portions. So, I have to roughly subtract 2.3 GHs for each error, and then subtract the percentage of rejections from the Pi, and then subtract the small percentage of rejections from the pool-server. To determine the "actual estimated hashing rate".

Might be one reason why you guys are having a difficult time "detecting" the failing or failed boards... Prior to shipping. Because the software is essentially fudging the "output" or the "production". (Not sure if this was done on purpose, to thwart the introduction of THs machines into the market, but I suspect it was not done on accident. No-one can be that stupid to have overlooked that, when programming. It had to be purposely reprogrammed, because the program which they made this from, did formulate for all of that. Not AMT, the people who made this web-UI and the RasPi distro. The web-UI has access to that information, obviously, in the logs and output.)

If I had not checked it, I would have run for days, at less than 50%, thinking it was running 100%, as the screen and web-UI indicated.

Sample output from the "LOGS -> CgMiner" page... (Screens indicate "380 GHs". Pool indicates "145 GHs".)
Code:
Difficulty Accepted=>169984.0
Pool Rejected%=>1.3
Found Blocks=>0
Difficulty Rejected=>0.0
Device Rejected%=>54.8
Pool Stale%=>0.0
Work Utility=>16.48
Rejected=>0
Elapsed=>2418
Hardware Errors=>85
Accepted=>664
Network Blocks=>3
Local Work=>219307
Get Failures=>0
Difficulty Stale=>0.0
Total MH=>923765860.991
Device Hardware%=>11.3485
Discarded=>3708
Stale=>0
MHS av=>382077.53
Getworks=>64
MHS 5s=>388568.23
Best Share=>131249
Last getwork=>1393148966
Remote Failures=>0
Utility=>16.48

Pool Rejected%=>1.3
Device Rejected%=>54.8
Hardware Errors=>85
Device Hardware%=>11.3485
MHS av=>382077.53 Huh (Not even possible with 50% rejects, which should not be counted.)
MHS 5s=>388568.23
Remote Failures=>0

Suggestion...

In the Web-UI, Indicate the "Workload Output: 380 GHs", then the "Valid Output: 145 GHs". Also taking note of "Device rejected: 53%", and "Hardware Errors: 85"...

The screen on the machine should just read "Speed: 145 GHs", not "Speed: 380 Ghs", since that should indicate our "Valid production". Which, if low, we KNOW there is an issue, and can investigate further with the GUI, or reboot, or alert you of an issue before the issue becomes a major device failure. Since, seeming as if nothing was wrong, we would let it keep keep running, possibly burning up the device and causing more "expensive damage", which the MFG would be responsible for repairing. (Just trying to reduce your future potential losses here.)

At the moment, a simple reboot fixes this issue... for the "device rejected" errors. (That too, you could indicate on the miner screen and the web-UI, since you can detect that "error rate", easily.)

Works best if you shut it down and wait 30 seconds, to allow the unit to completely drain itself of power. Seems the caps hold a lot of power in the Pi, and some on the miner, causing it to linger in a low-power, half-alive, dysfunctional state. One which causes it to not boot correctly, if instantly turned off and back on, in a time-period below 20-seconds.
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May 23, 2014, 10:59:54 PM
Last edit: May 23, 2014, 11:15:10 PM by NotFuzzyWarm
 #1596

Well... in theory at least the tweaked cgminer for the A1 is on Github so the code for that can be looked at (not by me - otta my scope of things). Are the calcs from it right and being reinterpreted by the web UI?

Oh, standard rule of thumb Bitmain uses for the Ants error % is
HW error % = HW/(diffA + diffR + HW) * 100

Following that my S1's range from truly infinitesimal to 0.000012% error. Have never ever had my pool report rejects/errors/stales. Always 0/0/0 even from my worst Jala that BFgminer reports as having 6.7% error rate.

And my s2 is in Alaska, UPS says will be here on Tuesday Cheesy Cheesy

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May 23, 2014, 11:15:35 PM
Last edit: May 23, 2014, 11:28:44 PM by ISAWHIM
 #1597

Well... in theory at least the tweaked cgminer for the A1 is on Github so the code for that can be looked at (not by me - otta my scope of things). Are the calcs from it right and being reinterpreted by the web UI?

Oh, standard rule of thumb Bitmain uses for the Ants error % is
HW error % = HW/(diffA + diffR + HW) * 100

Following that my S1's range from truly infinitesimal to 0.000012% error. Have never ever had my pool report rejects/errors/stales. Always 0/0/0

Yes, a formula like that would be accurate to the "output", not the "workload". (Now, if both those were low, that would be another issue, other than one with a high workload and high errors. Which is what we should be seeing.)

Eg...
On a system that normally runs about 390-375 Ghs...
1: Doing 380 GHs of work and 0% errors, thus Validity is 380 GHs "accepted" = Normal
2: Doing 380 GHs of work and 50% errors, thus Validity is 145 GHs "accepted" = Reboot needed (? Software errors, Initialization errors, possibly ?)
3: Doing 145 GHs of work and 0% errors, thus Validity is 145 Ghs "accepted" = Stop miner (? Hardware critical failure, card dead or unit half dead ?)

Right now, for #2, both the screen and GUI indicate 360 GHs, as if nothing is wrong at all. #2 will eventually lead to #3 in time, or worse... If not rebooted or attended to.

P.S. Seems the hardware errors are not persistent... they are accumulative. Might want to formulate a time-scale for that number, as the total number is irrelevant. It is the hardware-errors per second/avg which is needed for that formula. I am up to over 185 hardware errors, and so I am sure that would translate into 100% death, if that was how many errors there are at the moment, not just over time.

Eg, It has been running for 60 min, or 3600 seconds, so 185 errors in 3600 seconds = HW-Error rate of 0.0514/second Which is not bad. (Started with a lot, right out of the gate, now it is only one every few seconds.)
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May 23, 2014, 11:27:33 PM
Last edit: May 23, 2014, 11:38:55 PM by NotFuzzyWarm
 #1598

Well sumptin' sure is lying there.

For that Ants the stats are also additive but give just 1 hr or over 11 days the result comes up the same. My pool reported rates generally are pretty close/exceed what the Ants locally report and tbh the pool numbers are what pays. So I have to assume that clean work is being done no?

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May 23, 2014, 11:33:09 PM
 #1599

These folks are selling the Bitmine reference board:

http://theminingware.com/opencart/upload/index.php?route=product/product&path=25_33&product_id=52

 
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May 23, 2014, 11:33:44 PM
 #1600

Just for a comparison benchmark my best s1 OC'd to 190 ghs is 10 raw HW over the past 4 days, worst at stock 180ghs is 11,236 raw HW over the past 11 days.

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