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Author Topic: New Official AMT Thread  (Read 149167 times)
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May 09, 2014, 01:26:01 AM
 #1161


There isn't an argument. And most courts frown upon bankruptcy to avoid a consumer debt. Most courts wont even grant it until the consumers have been made whole. Its been tried before. There are plenty of cases like that. And yea you can go and sue....as for agreeing collectively that largely depends on the terms they propose. If they say you will get X and we are mostly all ok with it....then great we move on....if not.....we can state that to the lawfirm.....at the end of the day tho I think the plantiffs registered clenell and the other dude (forget his username) would kinda speak on everyone behalf in that regard. They might push for better terms. But if an agreement can't be made in settlement it goes to trial which honestly could go either way BUT considering things it could work heavily in our favor with all the evidence and written documentation there is. But anyone not in agreement with whatever settlement they got would be free to find their own lawyer and get that litigated. The problem is you can't come at them for the same thing or you start to run afoul of double jeopardy and the case gets tossed out.

It clearly is in AMT's best interest to make sure that a majority are satisfied with the terms.

I just can't see how this case is even winnable by AMT.   I mean, a sale is made that promises A to be delivered on B date with a warranty of C and further protection of D.  You then don't deliver A,B,C and D and you fail to communicate with your clients.   How can they win?

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May 09, 2014, 01:26:45 AM
Last edit: May 09, 2014, 01:39:36 AM by mrpark
 #1162

I look forward to telling the story about how the slickster snake oil salesmen at AMT caused financial loss to active duty military and US Veterans and everyone else here as well. Jurys and judges don't usually don't like to hear about someone stealing money from US service members. I love the fact the class action will be in Philly too, my home town.

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May 09, 2014, 01:39:15 AM
 #1163

I look forward to talking in court to tell the story how AMT caused financial loss to active duty military and US Veterans and everyone else here as well. Jurys and judges don't usually don't like to hear about someone stealing money from US service members. I love the fact it will be in Philly too, my home town.

The complaint appears to demand a jury trial...  if I were AMT I would avoid a trial at all costs.  It would be expensive and it clearly is not remotely winnable.

A company advertises A but never delivers.  I can't see how you can spin that ?

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May 09, 2014, 01:51:41 AM
 #1164

I look forward to talking in court to tell the story how AMT caused financial loss to active duty military and US Veterans and everyone else here as well. Jurys and judges don't usually don't like to hear about someone stealing money from US service members. I love the fact it will be in Philly too, my home town.

The complaint appears to demand a jury trial...  if I were AMT I would avoid a trial at all costs.  It would be expensive and it clearly is not remotely winnable.

A company advertises A but never delivers.  I can't see how you can spin that ?

I don't know if you know about Philly, a jury won't side with a business there for sure. It's a city that's all about helping the little guy.(Very, very democratic). I can't imagine a worse place to have a trial for AMT.

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May 09, 2014, 01:59:07 AM
 #1165

I look forward to talking in court to tell the story how AMT caused financial loss to active duty military and US Veterans and everyone else here as well. Jurys and judges don't usually don't like to hear about someone stealing money from US service members. I love the fact it will be in Philly too, my home town.

The complaint appears to demand a jury trial...  if I were AMT I would avoid a trial at all costs.  It would be expensive and it clearly is not remotely winnable.

A company advertises A but never delivers.  I can't see how you can spin that ?

I don't know if you know about Philly, a jury won't side with a business there for sure. It's a city that's all about helping the little guy.(Very, very democratic). I can't imagine a worse place to have a trial for AMT.

The real question is not if its winnable,  the question is how much damages. 

(1) Purchase Price
(2) 2 - X months of lost mining revenues
(3 MPP
(4) Intangibles


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May 09, 2014, 02:13:53 AM
 #1166

I look forward to talking in court to tell the story how AMT caused financial loss to active duty military and US Veterans and everyone else here as well. Jurys and judges don't usually don't like to hear about someone stealing money from US service members. I love the fact it will be in Philly too, my home town.

The complaint appears to demand a jury trial...  if I were AMT I would avoid a trial at all costs.  It would be expensive and it clearly is not remotely winnable.

A company advertises A but never delivers.  I can't see how you can spin that ?

I don't know if you know about Philly, a jury won't side with a business there for sure. It's a city that's all about helping the little guy.(Very, very democratic). I can't imagine a worse place to have a trial for AMT.

The real question is not if its winnable,  the question is how much damages. 

(1) Purchase Price
(2) 2 - X months of lost mining revenues
(3 MPP
(4) Intangibles



1 is easy its tangible and can be quantified...
2 can be tossed out only on the premise that bitcoin is a speculative market. There is no way to properly or consistently quantify those revenues ahead of time so a court will not regard that...they MIGHT. but not likely.
3 actually is an interesting point that can go a couple of ways....and argument can be made that we are investors....since they refer to ROI, our investment is generating a ROI. We did invest in their company with an expectation to get an ROI. That qualifies as an investment. Investomers is pretty much the argument that could be made as it has been used. But we are in actuality investors in a very technical sense. the MPP kind of enables that in that we pay money and are to expect some kind of return based on future ROI or lack of.
4 Intangibles is sketchy. Example?

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May 09, 2014, 02:18:45 AM
 #1167

Here is a summary of the whole case. I paid $6000 for a computer promised by a certain date by wire. No delivery was made, no working design was even available. The computer is now only worth 1/3 as much today as when promised Feb 2014. Speculation has nothing to do with my case. These are the facts.

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May 09, 2014, 02:27:08 AM
 #1168

Here is the whole case. I paid $6000 for a computer promised by a certain date by wire. No delivery was made, no working design was even available. The computer is now only worth 1/3 as much today as when promised Feb 2014. Speculation has nothing to do with my case. These are the facts.

Right. That covers that side of it. I think friction is mostly looking at things like the MPP which was an advertised feature. The idea is to get compensated base on the MPP as well as that was part of the promised aspect. But yea those are the simple facts there for a court case.

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May 09, 2014, 03:07:10 AM
 #1169

I might be interested in getting the chips, but I want more than just 50.  AMT sells 50 chips for $4,300 and 75 for $6,450. (http://advancedminers.com/bitcoin-mining-hardware/coin-craft-a1-chip/)
Why would I take such a big hit?  I paid a little over $6,000 for the miner.

Give me 96 chips, the extras for such a long delay, so I can have Technobit assemble them for me with their boards.  This will be roughly an extra $3,600 cost for me, not to mention all the accessories included.  I think that is a very fair deal given the circumstances.



If I really could have a fully assembled, tested and working 1.2Th miner within 7 days though I would probably just choose that option.

We can just send you technobit boards anyway since we're producing them now anyway. What's your order number.

How many fully populated and tested Rev. 3 Technobit boards that with the A1 chips would I get?  You can PM me an offer, but I would expected at least 6 boards with all the supporting hardware (backplane, cables, etc.) without the case - I can make one on my own.

I now my way around cgminer and how to get it to connect to the miners, so if assembly is successful then running it shouldn't be an issue.  I'd probably end up taking on the un-official technical support role.
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May 09, 2014, 03:08:47 AM
Last edit: May 09, 2014, 04:06:23 AM by NotFuzzyWarm
 #1170

Can someone who has received one of the 1.2 Th/s miners confirm that the heatsink on the A1 chip is only on the top (e.g., there is no heatsink on the backside of the PCB)?  I ask because it is clear looking at Innosilicon specs that a majority of the heat is designed to go to the PCB side (back) and heatsinks on both back and front are *required* by spec... that could explain the meltdowns.  Sorry if that was covered before.
If you look back at pics of some the the miner footballs you will see very large backside heatsinks. In fact the boards are bolted to them.

edit: better yet, Opiums system https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=569769.msg6467633#msg6467633

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May 09, 2014, 03:23:50 AM
Last edit: May 09, 2014, 03:50:41 AM by NotFuzzyWarm
 #1171

Can someone who has received one of the 1.2 Th/s miners confirm that the heatsink on the A1 chip is only on the top (e.g., there is no heatsink on the backside of the PCB)?  I ask because it is clear looking at Innosilicon specs that a majority of the heat is designed to go to the PCB side (back) and heatsinks on both back and front are *required* by spec... that could explain the meltdowns.  Sorry if that was covered before.

The chips appear to be assembled properly. BUT one problem is the amount of thermal grease too much and too little and general build quality of the hardware. It seems like there is no uniformity in the build batches. one could have one voltage and another board another....so if you run cgminer on one voltage you will have a board or 4 burn out on you. So any uniform or standard setting (which in actuality was the default bitmine settings that were much higher and would cause the boards to fry almost as soon as they came online) could cause the boards to fry.

I ran into this with one miner that had 3 boards pretty much die on me in 5 minutes and then a 4th shortly and I was able to salvage a 5th onto my working miner that had one dead board....that 4th board died a couple of days later while leaving me now with 4 out of 10 working boards..at this point i am expecting them to die at some point. But knock on wood they are still working. So the design is a working design. But the build quality and general QA testing was pretty much non-existent hence the problems.

The erratic grease coverage doesn't surprise me. Bet the boards were not tightned down to the main sinks by cross-torquing the screws (and not all the way at once) to spread the grease evenly outward as best one can. Any other way and you get bubbles & dry(ish) spots. Dinna help that AMT said they were getting folks from the office to help build them. Isn't that the blind leading the blind?...

 Realistically, the only areas on the main sinks that need thermal compound/grease is for the Vcore FET's and where the A1's thermal vias are. With the boards being FR4 there is minimal lateral heat flow aside from what the ground plane cladding provides. Now if Tlam or Tclad boards were used...

 I've been meaning ask about the core voltages and how they are set. I take it with the current (original) design all boards are set to the same Vcore level? Or can each boards be tweaked on it's own?

With the technobit solution and seeing the sshot of BitMine's 2.4 TH it looks like each um, module, is pretty much an independent miner which hopefully means they can be tweaked one at a time.
Does cgminer allow for individual module addressing for speed/voltages?

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May 09, 2014, 06:42:17 AM
 #1172

I'm sure Joshua Zipkin will rear his ugly head again soon - and give another excuse as to the delay on this particular update/plan. It will be more "talked about solutions" with no substance or anything you can take to the bank. This has been the case with EVERY so-called "update" for the past 6 months.

Joshua will continue to do this as he has each time in the past, buying himself more time.

Anyone that hasn't talked with a lawyer yet, has made a large error based on false trust. Do not get duped into holding off any longer, you can always cancel on the suit if AMT miraculously does right by everyone (not looking like that will happen).

AMT founder Joshua Zipkin deserves to be in jail and/or heavily fined and charged with fraud. Anyone else involved with this RUSE that is AMT should also be held accountable.


@AMT...we were expecting an update today based on your word. At this point all of us are holding AMT accountable for this...considering that this is more of the same misrepresentation, you are legally liable while in the middle of a lawsuit for presenting this information to us. You cannot expect us to not be angry when you back out on your word yet again. I have to concur with sirminesalot on this position. We all have been waiting an incredible amount of time and being strung along with what should have been a simple transaction.

We still have no information on process for RMA, or what will replace the current product....will the MPP be honored? and if so why not? We have been asking what are valid questions here and considering the circumstances it is incumbent upon you to provide some answers for us. We have all tried to be very patient some more than others, but with this latest break in word, its getting old. While you have had marto validate that you will be using his designs, the concern is that he is not making them and instead we are again relying on you to provide us with hardware (because the first time did not go so well so can you blame us).....also it appears now you have the FBI investigating you based on Mrparks source. Considering his background which you publicly posted, I would not consider that a bluff.

I personally tried to help out for the sake of the customers but it does not appear you really want to try to make this right. Communication is key in all this and we are just seeing more words with little or no substance. If you say you will post an announcement then post it when you say you will. At this point the chips fall where they may. I had hoped keeping order in this thread would actually help get you to communicate more, but its only lead to alot more of the same misleading and stringing along statements.

Oh Oh Josh.. the carrot is looking a bit rancid!

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May 09, 2014, 10:54:50 AM
 #1173

And the historical bitcoin loss is not speculative, if it was future loss that would be speculative.

MPP was referred to as the computer being worth only 1/3 as much now.

Ran the math,  on a 1.2 THs with a difficulty rating of 3.5 million (in march) revenue would be $75 per day.
In April, with difficulty rating of 5 milling revenue would be $52 per day.
So lost revenues for months or March and April would total around $3,810.  Note:  I did not include February revenues.

In short, any settlement that delivers the same 1.2 THs should at least compensate for the lost mining revenues (in this case $3,810).

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May 09, 2014, 11:27:25 AM
 #1174

And the historical bitcoin loss is not speculative, if it was future loss that would be speculative.

MPP was referred to as the computer being worth only 1/3 as much now.

Ran the math,  on a 1.2 THs with a difficulty rating of 3.5 million (in march) revenue would be $75 per day.
In April, with difficulty rating of 5 milling revenue would be $52 per day.
So lost revenues for months or March and April would total around $3,810.  Note:  I did not include February revenues.

In short, any settlement that delivers the same 1.2 THs should at least compensate for the lost mining revenues (in this case $3,810).

Yes, $3800 other damages, an 3-4T of mining power, maybe much more when this goes to trial. Personally, I am seeking every penny I can get.

Yes, the damages are indeed piling up over time.   Also consider the cost of litigation.  AMT will have to pay the defendant's lawyers in event of a loss.  The case though is not even remotely winnable so this is practically guaranteed.

I think if AMT does not come up with an acceptable settlement with the next week or so, then we will need to see how we can freeze their assets just like they've done with HashFast. see:  https://coinreport.net/court-freezing-hashfast-bitcoin-wallets/

In addition, the company will require an audit. 


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May 09, 2014, 11:34:28 AM
 #1175

And the historical bitcoin loss is not speculative, if it was future loss that would be speculative.

MPP was referred to as the computer being worth only 1/3 as much now.

Ran the math,  on a 1.2 THs with a difficulty rating of 3.5 million (in march) revenue would be $75 per day.
In April, with difficulty rating of 5 milling revenue would be $52 per day.
So lost revenues for months or March and April would total around $3,810.  Note:  I did not include February revenues.

In short, any settlement that delivers the same 1.2 THs should at least compensate for the lost mining revenues (in this case $3,810).

Yes, $3800 other damages, an 3-4T of mining power, maybe much more when this goes to trial. Personally, I am seeking every penny I can get.

At this point it seems like there will be no settlement information coming. Fact is that settlement info actually would be coming from the legal team filing the suit. I am going to make them aware of that today that AMT claimed to have had an offer for us but did not deliver as promised. Seeing as we ALL are part of the lawsuit whether we signed on or not, not a smart move retaliating against us this time as they have admitted in the past they do in the past.  All said....yea those were similar numbers I was getting. For the sake of keeping things realistic, 2-2.4 would be a minimum acceptable as it would be possible to get with what they likely have already have in resources. Chances are we wont get much more than that. But if you got your own personal lawyer and are going that route then you are all set to go...this one would be a slam dunk. Hopefully that lawyer can charge them the attorney fees as well.

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May 09, 2014, 11:35:41 AM
 #1176

And the historical bitcoin loss is not speculative, if it was future loss that would be speculative.

MPP was referred to as the computer being worth only 1/3 as much now.

Ran the math,  on a 1.2 THs with a difficulty rating of 3.5 million (in march) revenue would be $75 per day.
In April, with difficulty rating of 5 milling revenue would be $52 per day.
So lost revenues for months or March and April would total around $3,810.  Note:  I did not include February revenues.

In short, any settlement that delivers the same 1.2 THs should at least compensate for the lost mining revenues (in this case $3,810).

Yes, $3800 other damages, an 3-4T of mining power, maybe much more when this goes to trial. Personally, I am seeking every penny I can get.

Yes, the damages are indeed piling up over time.   Also consider the cost of litigation.  AMT will have to pay the defendant's lawyers in event of a loss.  The case though is not even remotely winnable so this is practically guaranteed.

I think if AMT does not come up with an acceptable settlement with the next week or so, then we will need to see how we can freeze their assets just like they've done with HashFast. see:  https://coinreport.net/court-freezing-hashfast-bitcoin-wallets/

In addition, the company will require an audit.  



My guess is they are pretty close to insolvent at this point. An audit would be useful in confirming that.

Oh and 7:38AM 5/9/2014 more than 24 hours have passed since the original annoucement that there would be a "first thing in the morning" announcement. I would expect that the next thing from AMT at this point is simply the announcement and not another line or excuse. Details and answers to the following questions:

What are we getting for compensation due to this hassle....and to honor the MPP?
What is the committed timeline (which will be court enforced)?
What will be the process to QA and test the new board designs?
What is the RMA process needed to send back the old hardware?

I suggest anyone with questions should just post questions and stick to just that. They have lotta 'splaining to do.

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May 09, 2014, 11:46:08 AM
 #1177

I thought it might be noteworthy to note that bitmine appears to be headed in the same direction about to get sued. Its a more complicated process in Europe but if this becomes widespread enough the governments will clamp down on it. IN the US pretty much every mining company that did preorders (all of them) is now in lawsuit hell.

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May 09, 2014, 01:24:56 PM
 #1178

AMT_MINERS - IT HAS BEEN 6 MONTHS OF FAILED ATTEMPTS...

(SNIP)

THIS IS HOW AMT SHIPPED ME A $6,000 COMPUTER THEY DID NOT EVEN USE A REAL BOX, THEY MADE ONE OUT OF CARDBOARD PIECES. THEY DIDNT EVEN BOTHER ORDERING PROPER BOXES.


I can't read this... too many caps!

The boxes are really amateur.  I usually buy broken computers on eBay,  even those broken computers come in much more sturdy boxes and packed in foam and bubble wrap.  

It is like AMT did not even have in their budget the need to buy boxes!   This is indeed very odd since the boxes of the original cases would have been sufficient.  

I suspect the case that AMT is trying to build now is an attempt to persuade the court that they have made an honest effort to fulfill their obligations.  Unfortunately,  from my perspective, I don't see proof of that.

Has anyone had significant interaction with them to verify if they've actually made an effort to deliver 1.2 TH/s *working* miners.

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May 09, 2014, 01:30:29 PM
 #1179



Yes, we're working on the professional aspect now.

1. is definitely a go.
2. Is getting there as long as we can source the heatsinks by the end of the week. (dynatron setup has potential but when it comes to technobit its usually best to keep it as is because that's how it has been designed to work).  
3. Is happening as well but will not be up and running until mid next week, realistically.

Not too many takers for the rest. But we'll include a payback option as well, just for other clients which have not been following this thread.

So here's the next step. We're working on the site now, creating a specific section which defines these options in detail and we've been having the lawyers draft/review them and we'll have the final draft back tomorrow. We just don't want to say/offer something wrong or something that could make the situation worse or who knows how people can spin it  right. Tomorrow afternoon we'll post this section as well as send out a mailer to all clients who would like to review the options. Those of you which have already made a selection or mentioned a preference here have been noted but we'll still need you to officially select the which option you'd like tomorrow as well.


This was posted 2 days ago.    

Waiting for new info.

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May 09, 2014, 01:34:30 PM
Last edit: May 09, 2014, 01:48:16 PM by mrpark
 #1180

I find it ironic they think they are better than "Chinese companies" let me tell you, Chinese companies take way more pride in their work. Even when it comes to the box. Not only do Chinese companies use a proper box, they have the information printed on the box. Something like company name, sizes of items, etc.. They also plan for proper size foam packing that fit the box. I am sure there are many American companies also that do this as well.

Not that I am fixated on how the box looks, but AMT did not bother to even use an actually box to ship a $6,000 computer!

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