[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[Johnny Mnemonic]

No it doesn't. If it can't be used for illegal purposes then it's worthless. The point of decentralized crypto is to protect us from unjust laws and allow us to decide for ourselves what is right and what isn't. That's what freedom is all about.

Respectfully disagree. The Bitcoin blockchain is set up to easily allow someone who knows any addresses belonging to you to see who has given you money and where you are sending it. This is unacceptable from a privacy standpoint -- you would never accept a bank publishing all your transactions out in the clear. This is precisely why Monero exists, to be actual virtual cash.

And, in any case, if you believe that there is a 100% foolproof system for payments that you can use to break any law you'd like to that exists online... well, I would say you'll probably find out soon enough that that's a bad idea the hard way.

It's hard to tell if you actually believe what you're saying or if you're just attempting to limit your liability. I certainly can't fault you for that.

But stealth addressing alone is plenty sufficient for the issues you describe: protecting your privacy from your "neighbor". However, it's not our neighbors we're concerned about. It's our brothers.

[smooth]

Stealth addressing alone is plenty sufficient for the issues you describe: protecting your privacy from your "neighbor".

Only if you never transact with your neighbors. If you pay the neighbor's kid for babysitting or buy a raffle ticket, they can follow the connections.

Anyway, OpenBazaar isn't really a good fit for illegality at this point either. It lacks strong anonymity features (among them integration with a coin with strong anonymity features, but that's just one of many issues). It's just a p2p marketplace that has plenty of advantages (at least, potential advantages, if it gets finished and works well). The obscene fees charged by ebay are reason enough.

[Atrides]

I don't believe this is true. You asked me for contributions, I am willing to contribute, just not on your terms:

"send money to this XMR address"

If you put out a plan with details on exactly what and when something will be completed and then found a trustworthy escrow to hold the funds I think many would be willing to contribute. Once you have delivered the escrow could release the funds.

The issue is not that "not many want really do something for that", but rather that "not many are willing to send money to random strangers on the internet", especially without a concrete plan.

the actual list of freebazaar donators:

dnaleon 100
pa 2000
smooth 250
pwrz 100
generalizethis 50
ajiekceu 500


just to say, I offered you an alternative to donate the futher development steps if "you don't know and believe me". there is no reason to offend me without cause. if you'd mine on my pool, you'd have known, my reputation is the fisrt point for me.
I wouldn't scam for 10-13BTC, and destroy all my hard work for more than a year. I also started and spending my time for MoneroClub not to scam you for 200xmr


I still looked into OpenBazaar a couple of weeks ago to understand the concept and that it is possible to integrate Monero.
This is a rough plan for the first step:

1. to integrate monero (as a main or an alernative method to choice - monero only or monero+btc)
we have to decide if we will integrate freebazaar into the original bazaar or develop our own platform with our own features with gateway into OpenBazaar, Slur.io, Bitmarkets.

2. to replace BTC multisig-escrow for third party monero-escrow
3. a communiation with monero wallets (local client, webclient(?) mymonero)

I suppose it can take me two fully weeks till month, I already wrote, I will regular keep informed my backers group.

to work for escrow seems to work for free to me, that's right, that are my terms, I'm looking forward if you want to develop, please feel free to make your own terms. I will donate to you 200xmr without escrow to move Monero forward.

[smooth]

I suggest smooth as escrow.

I'm interested in doing that, assuming the conditions of the escrow are clearly worked out. I suggest you, David (?) and others who want to donate in this manner discuss it privately with Atrides and work out a plan (funding milestones, deliverables, etc.)

[Johnny Mnemonic]

This is precisely why Monero exists, to be actual virtual cash.

What you just suggested, however, is that Monero is nothing close to virtual cash. You're effectively saying it only behaves like cash if I use it within the legal boundaries of whatever corrupt jurisdiction I happen to be transacting in.

If governments wanted to shut down Monero tomorrow they could by computational attacks or by intimidation. Monero has bigger reasons for existing than to simply help you buy things online that are illegal.

Actual cash behaves like cash regardless of how I use it.

[David Latapie]

This is precisely why Monero exists, to be actual virtual cash.

What you just suggested, however, is that Monero is nothing close to virtual cash. You're effectively saying it only behaves like cash if I use it within the legal boundaries of whatever corrupt jurisdiction I happen to be transacting in.

If governments wanted to shut down Monero tomorrow they could by computational attacks or by intimidation. Monero has bigger reasons for existing than to simply help you buy things online that are illegal.

Actual cash behaves like cash regardless of how I use it.

Cash can be made illegal very easily. It suffices to change banknotes and coins - something that is done routinely for decades, by the way.
So Monero IS like cash. Like cash, a decision to make it illegal can damage it.
If you want something impervious to legal action, look for comodity money (actual like, not precious metals which do not have true real life use) or more likely for bartering (cigarette works wonders when SHTF).
Update: now that I think of it, bartering could be made illegal too.

[generalizethis]

This is precisely why Monero exists, to be actual virtual cash.

What you just suggested, however, is that Monero is nothing close to virtual cash. You're effectively saying it only behaves like cash if I use it within the legal boundaries of whatever corrupt jurisdiction I happen to be transacting in.

If governments wanted to shut down Monero tomorrow they could by computational attacks or by intimidation. Monero has bigger reasons for existing than to simply help you buy things online that are illegal.

Actual cash behaves like cash regardless of how I use it.

Going to re-watch The Dallas Buyer's Club and Schindler's List and hope the anonymous movement of this asset isn't dependent on laws that can be inhumane by accident or intent.

[David Latapie]

the actual list of freebazaar donators:

Updated list.

[TheKoziTwo]

to work for escrow seems to work for free to me, that's right, that are my terms, I'm looking forward if you want to develop, please feel free to make your own terms. I will donate to you 200xmr without escrow to move Monero forward.

Please explain the bold.

just to say, I offered you an alternative to donate the futher development steps if "you don't know and believe me". there is no reason to offend me without cause. if you'd mine on my pool, you'd have known, my reputation is the fisrt point for me.
I wouldn't scam for 10-13BTC, and destroy all my hard work for more than a year. I also started and spending my time for MoneroClub not to scam you for 200xmr

Don't be ridiculous. You shouldn't get offended if people on the internet don't trust you.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

This is precisely why Monero exists, to be actual virtual cash.

What you just suggested, however, is that Monero is nothing close to virtual cash. You're effectively saying it only behaves like cash if I use it within the legal boundaries of whatever corrupt jurisdiction I happen to be transacting in.

If governments wanted to shut down Monero tomorrow they could by computational attacks or by intimidation. Monero has bigger reasons for existing than to simply help you buy things online that are illegal.

Actual cash behaves like cash regardless of how I use it.

Cash can be made illegal very easily. It suffices to change banknotes and coins - something that is done routinely for decades, by the way.
So Monero IS like cash. Like cash, a decision to make it illegal can damage it.
If you want something impervious to legal action, look for comodity money (actual like, not precious metals which do not have true real life use) or more likely for bartering (cigarette works wonders when SHTF).
Update: now that I think of it, bartering could be made illegal too.

There's a difference between making something illegal and enforcing it.

Cash can be made illegal, but governments can't (easily) stop people from using it. I think the only reason banks still print physical money is because if they didn't something else would take it's place.

Monero (as a virtual cash) should be usable regardless of whether governments are okay with it. To me that's the entire point.

[dewdeded]

It's pretty obvious for everybody, by just looking in tech-history or applying scientific methods and instruments (network effects, brand knowledge hype, importance and volume of DM E-Commerce on TOR, ...), that the leading DarkMarket coin will be also leading privacy-coin for legal trades.

Any efforts that introduces an distinction of usage in wanted [legal] and not (so much) wanted usage [non 100% legal], by is excluding, discouring DM usage is flawed and will surely harm masssively or kill the project longterm.
There is only one avaible free market segment to conquer: its becoming "the leading anon cryptocurreny". The are no "two different" markets, with different user communities and people,  with one searching a good coin for legal trades only and the other searching a coin to pay securely on illegal DarkNet trades.
A coin is needed and will win this battles that is well performing and is secure in both (legal and non-legal).

Clear Example:
Like there is only one leading File-Encrypting-Software with TrueCrypt. TC is used for illegal and legal activities. There is no software focussing legal usage of file encryption & another one focussing illegal usage of file encryption. It's just one project dominated the whole market segmnet.

Like there is only one leading Mail-Encrypting-Standard with PGP. PGP is used for illegal and legal activities. There is no mail encrytions solutions focussing legal usage & another one focussing illegal usage of mail encryption. It's just one standard dominated the whole same market segmnet.

Software tools for hackers and pentesters arent defined in legal usage and non-legal usage. There is only nmap to scan hosts and not one (legal) nmap for pentesters and another nmap project for hackers to use in illegal activity.
There is only one Metasploit framework for legal (pentesters, devs) and illegal users (hackers, cybercrime users). No distinction.
Or look at leading messenger encryption, its being OTR used 90% users that encryptions chat. There is no chat encryptin for legal talks and another for crime related chat. Just one.


For me, it's evident and logically that leading anon-coin (biggest project, best community, etc.) for legal usage is the same coin, that is leading on DarkMarkets.

Also DarkMarket volume is very, very big and only grows. Buying weed on TOR is mainstream, like illegal downloading with torrents,  CP on TOR, clearnet web-based illegal streaming sites, warez-software-downloads sites, etc. This is stuff that wont go away. DM trading will get bigger and more professional.
I would guess that people, who need the coin to pay on DarkMarkets are 4 or 5 times as many as the people needing an anon-coin just personal privacy reasons/interessts.
If you talk RL bitcoin sellers in big cities, they always said that 80% or more of the people who bought Bitcoins from them, wanted to buy drugs on DM.



I would suggest, if you live in a country that put you in jail for developing software that's used in DarkMarket E-Commerce, then don't talk about DarkMarket-stuff in public.
There are core-devs who can talk about it, because they live in free countries or they are anon.

Dont do these strange, implausible and overcorrect statements of disapproving, any software-usage you cant talk about.

[Atrides]

to work for escrow seems to work for free to me, that's right, that are my terms, I'm looking forward if you want to develop, please feel free to make your own terms. I will donate to you 200xmr without escrow to move Monero forward.

Please explain the bold.

just to say, I offered you an alternative to donate the futher development steps if "you don't know and believe me". there is no reason to offend me without cause. if you'd mine on my pool, you'd have known, my reputation is the fisrt point for me.
I wouldn't scam for 10-13BTC, and destroy all my hard work for more than a year. I also started and spending my time for MoneroClub not to scam you for 200xmr

Don't be ridiculous. You shouldn't get offended if people on the internet don't trust you.

like you have a bad expirience with donate for scam project, I have a bad expensive with some customers who didn't paid after work because some of them (also due to having less technical notion) imagined something other as a result, or just disappered with my done solution, or were in a bad mood or something like that.. just human factor, many years enough to decide only to work with prepayment

[smooth]

Or look at leading messenger encryption, its being OTR used 90% users that encryptions chat. There is no chat encryptin for legal talks and another for crime related chat. Just one.

This one I have to question. A lot of legal users stick with google chat, skype, etc., which are both "encrypted" I think, but not so useful for illegality.

Good points generally though.

[smooth]

to work for escrow seems to work for free to me, that's right, that are my terms, I'm looking forward if you want to develop, please feel free to make your own terms. I will donate to you 200xmr without escrow to move Monero forward.

Please explain the bold.

just to say, I offered you an alternative to donate the futher development steps if "you don't know and believe me". there is no reason to offend me without cause. if you'd mine on my pool, you'd have known, my reputation is the fisrt point for me.
I wouldn't scam for 10-13BTC, and destroy all my hard work for more than a year. I also started and spending my time for MoneroClub not to scam you for 200xmr

Don't be ridiculous. You shouldn't get offended if people on the internet don't trust you.

like you have a bad expirience with donate for scam project, I have a bad expensive with some customers who didn't paid after work because some of them (also due to having less technical notion) imagined something other as a result, or just disappered with my done solution, or were in a bad mood or something like that.. just human factor, many years enough to decide only to work with prepayment

As I said, if you (not you personally, but anyone involved) want to do escrow then define suitable completion criteria and you don't have to worry about nondelivery or nonpayment unless you don't trust the escrow (in which case its wrong escrow to choose).

For example one criterion might be that it compiles and is able to complete one XMR transaction. Easily verified by everyone involved. Anyway, you get the idea.

[TheKoziTwo]

to work for escrow seems to work for free to me, that's right, that are my terms, I'm looking forward if you want to develop, please feel free to make your own terms. I will donate to you 200xmr without escrow to move Monero forward.

Please explain the bold.

just to say, I offered you an alternative to donate the futher development steps if "you don't know and believe me". there is no reason to offend me without cause. if you'd mine on my pool, you'd have known, my reputation is the fisrt point for me.
I wouldn't scam for 10-13BTC, and destroy all my hard work for more than a year. I also started and spending my time for MoneroClub not to scam you for 200xmr

Don't be ridiculous. You shouldn't get offended if people on the internet don't trust you.

like you have a bad expirience with donate for scam project, I have a bad expensive with some customers who didn't paid after work because some of them (also due to having less technical notion) imagined something other as a result, or just disappered with my done solution, or were in a bad mood or something like that.. just human factor, many years enough to decide only to work with prepayment

Yeah I have worked as freelancer myself for a few years, I know to define the terms clearly upfront and for the most part I had few issues and usually did not require upfront payment. I consider escrow a sort of upfront payment because as long as you fulfill your part of the deal, the money will be yours. I personally will not participate in this without escrow and clearly defined terms, but I do wish you, and the donators, the best of luck in making it succeed.

[Atrides]

to work for escrow seems to work for free to me, that's right, that are my terms, I'm looking forward if you want to develop, please feel free to make your own terms. I will donate to you 200xmr without escrow to move Monero forward.

Please explain the bold.

just to say, I offered you an alternative to donate the futher development steps if "you don't know and believe me". there is no reason to offend me without cause. if you'd mine on my pool, you'd have known, my reputation is the fisrt point for me.
I wouldn't scam for 10-13BTC, and destroy all my hard work for more than a year. I also started and spending my time for MoneroClub not to scam you for 200xmr

Don't be ridiculous. You shouldn't get offended if people on the internet don't trust you.

like you have a bad expirience with donate for scam project, I have a bad expensive with some customers who didn't paid after work because some of them (also due to having less technical notion) imagined something other as a result, or just disappered with my done solution, or were in a bad mood or something like that.. just human factor, many years enough to decide only to work with prepayment

As I said, if you (not you personally, but anyone involved) want to do escrow then define suitable completion criteria and you don't have to worry about nondelivery or nonpayment unless you don't trust the escrow (in which case its wrong escrow to choose).

For example one criterion might be that it compiles and is able to complete one XMR transaction. Easily verified by everyone involved. Anyway, you get the idea.

actually, everything can get discussed ... we will see in process
one of the thing I just though about, I maybe get a helper, who contacted me. should I suggests him to work for free and get earning some day...

I don't call everyone to trust me, I offered various solutions

[iCEBREAKER]

I would love to help but I bought in at about the peak and hold so little it would be a drop in the bucket.

but this Freemarket Idea is certainly the way to go. It is even better if it could be integrated into the gui wallet to be released. This should be a consideration from inception so as to make integration seamless from the getgo.

I certainly wouldn't support this, and if the rest of the core team did I would probably leave the core team. Privacy is a design component of Monero there for numerous other reasons than to break laws, just as it is for Tor. OpenBazaar is an experiment on top of the Bitcoin protocol, and if it becomes the de facto world standard for illegal drug marketplaces I certainly wouldn't want such a thing intertwined with Monero on any level.

I don't understand you. Are you saying private money is okay but private trading is not? How is a decentralized marketplace any less legitimate?

For reasons of personal safety, the core devs must uncategorically eschew any support for empowering the peasantry to enjoy private/voluntary/mutually beneficial transactions.

Take their cover-their-ass statements with an accordingly sized grain of plausibly deniable salt.

And put me down for 500 XMR, to be paid out of escrow upon delivery of FreeMarket beta!   

[G2M]

I would love to help but I bought in at about the peak and hold so little it would be a drop in the bucket.

but this Freemarket Idea is certainly the way to go. It is even better if it could be integrated into the gui wallet to be released. This should be a consideration from inception so as to make integration seamless from the getgo.

I certainly wouldn't support this, and if the rest of the core team did I would probably leave the core team. Privacy is a design component of Monero there for numerous other reasons than to break laws, just as it is for Tor. OpenBazaar is an experiment on top of the Bitcoin protocol, and if it becomes the de facto world standard for illegal drug marketplaces I certainly wouldn't want such a thing intertwined with Monero on any level.

I don't understand you. Are you saying private money is okay but private trading is not? How is a decentralized marketplace any less legitimate?

For reasons of personal safety, the core devs must uncategorically eschew any support for empowering the peasantry to enjoy private/voluntary/mutually beneficial transactions.

Take their cover-their-ass statements with an accordingly sized grain of plausibly deniable salt.

And put me down for 500 XMR, to be paid out of escrow upon delivery of FreeMarket beta!   

Agree.

Also, please put me down for the 150 that I had pledged for the AMD open source miner.

I am withdrawing the 150 I had pledged for that, due to apparent total lack of interest, and putting it towards this.

[Hueristic]

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

[G2M]

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

How is this being made into an issue?

People are literally asking the developers to put into place a function in the wallet that will 100% be used to rape, murder, pillage, sell drugs, assassinate, pay for theft, etc, and this is the point that is being resisted currently.

The fact that you say, oh well we're just giving them an avenue to conduct transactions privately on a neutral ground doesn't change this fact. Sure, private transactions are great, but I wouldn't want that kinda shit on my computer.

All of this can be coded to use Monero, and none of it has to be inside the wallet software that the developers provide.

Let them provide the multisig, unadulterated wallet software, eliminate security flaws and refine the core functionality of the software .. but I wouldn't expect them to start picking and choosing apps to put into it.

I wouldn't want an ebay bank account ... why would I?