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Author Topic: [announce] Namecoin - a distributed naming system based on Bitcoin  (Read 318210 times)
snailbrain
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May 27, 2013, 10:35:08 AM
 #621

just a random thought:
In an MMORPG, you always create your character first.. you change hair colour, face shape, height, eye colour etc etc etc.. after all these combinations your "appearance" can be recorded as just a string of characters "EDfewe232DFwewfehjhti" is my avatars appearance.

Just something else that can be stored... there could be a website designed where you create your character then copy and paste your "appearance code" into your name's value..
e.g. ch/snailbrain"EDfewe232DFwewfehjhti"

useless at the moment, just a thought Smiley -- (you could just save that on an open website though i guess, but it could be in your id tag :d)
_______________________

Any fees need to go back to the miners.... it shouldn't be expensive to create a name... but should be expensive to spam the network..

The 0.01 fee for name_new should go back to the miners when the "name" expires.. if this would be possible.

Higher Cost for shorter names is good... if we used namecoin for some system where human readable names isn't too important.. e.g. login/snailbrain21341fdsf then shorter names being expensive and longer names being free (or almost free) seems good.

Vinced
Quote
The coins where domains are attached are currently 0.01NMC, but there's nothing in the code that validates that amount. It can be as low as 10^-8. I will change to 10^-8 in the near future.

In the current system, registration fees are reduced by 50% about every 3 months. There is no lower limit, so the fees will go to zero after a few years. If the value of NMC grows faster than that, then indeed there is an issue.

I will consider speeding up the registration fees decrease, probably to 2x per month, to try to match bitcoin/namecoin growth rates. This will be done at the same time that the switch to joint BTC/NMC mining is done.

The eventual plan was for new names to be free.... apart from "data usage", standard transaction fees are enough?

NMC/KB is good.. but registering names alone shouldn't be too expensive. Changing the data costs 0.005nmc atm?

___________________________

https://github.com/namecoin-qt/namecoin-qt

should compile better on linux (genbuild.sh removed)

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khal
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May 27, 2013, 12:10:08 PM
 #622

It is very good the used kb fee to protect the network from spam but we need also an additional fee(we can discuss about the amount) to protect more the short domains otherwise all of them will be kept and unused years until somebody decides to buy a couple of them from domain speculators.
Anyway it is not intended to stop domain trading just to create a little bit domain justice.
I'm not against this idea, but not for it either. Other opinions on this ?


Quote from: snailbrain
The 0.01 fee for name_new should go back to the miners when the "name" expires.. if this would be possible.
It may be a bit complex to do that (allow the coin to be included in a tx without including it in the total amount from txIn. Algo of coin selection need to be modified + this adds another specific case).
Even the possibility to give it back to the last name owner should be analyzed carefully (I've verified, coin selection algo is also concerned...).


Quote
The eventual plan was for new names to be free.... apart from "data usage", standard transaction fees are enough?
Standard transaction fees should be changed for this reason :p


Quote
NMC/KB is good.. but registering names alone shouldn't be too expensive. Changing the data costs 0.005nmc?
Indeed, it shouldn't be too expensive, and we must plan for it to be not too much expensive even if the NMC value do x10 (that also why there is relay_fees AND client_fees).
If some people plan to register thousands of names for "specific" usages, maybe using something else than names, like "messages" (I've done a PoC in the branch message_send [rapid hack, usable, but not for prod :p]) may be more suited. Those messages would require 1 tx instead of 2 for names. Maybe using a PoW like BitMessage would be a good idea. And, to go further, we could also do messages that won't be recorded in the blockchain (maybe both would be needed, or the blockchain one is not really needed)


---
Another thing we didn't speak about yet is free transactions (no fees).
Should we allow them ? (I would like to)
Only for standard tx or also for name_tx ?

Current algo allow them depending on
- space left in block currently created (so, those tx may be delayed to future blocks)
- age * amount of coins / tx size (using the amount in this formula allow any big amount to be split into small ones for free. Using the tx size limit this behavior)
-> currently: small tx (< 1kB) + old and/or big coins (dPriority) + no dust = free tx

---
I've another idea that may not be appreciated by everybody : use lost coins to fund namecoin bounties & a giveaway.
An opinion ?


---
Some update on the proposal :
+ x nmc per kb (could be non linear, a bit exponential)
+ y nmc per txout (avoid too much splitting)
- z nmc per tx in (txout size will reduce, but cpu is used to verify signatures)

X > Y > Z: a kB cost more than a new txOut, that cost more than a txIn spent (to make thing simple in the code, Y = X / const and Z = Y / const, that way we declare 1 value : X, like now)
Y - Z >= 0 : can't be negative, even if UTXO is reduced

NMC: N1KHAL5C1CRzy58NdJwp1tbLze3XrkFxx9 | NamecoinID: id/khal | Register .bit domain
BTC: 1KHAL8bUjnkMRMg9yd2dNrYnJgZGH8Nj6T | My bitcoin Identity: send messages to bitcoin users
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virtualmaster
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May 27, 2013, 12:25:20 PM
 #623


NMC/KB is good.. but registering names alone shouldn't be too expensive. Changing the data costs 0.005nmc atm?

I don't think 0.01NMC= 1 US cent is to expensive. It should be at least 10 times higher.
Then 0.1 NMC fee would be still 0.1 USD very affordable. Short domains should cost more.
That could decrease of course over the time if there will be 10 domain names and namecoin price will be much higher than today.
Of course there could be other namecoin related registration services with lower fees or we could have an extra domain with no registration fee later.
But until it is the case we need more namecoin traffic on the only existing .bit domain.
Of course it depends in what context we see the fee reduction. If it is planned after the namecoin prices are already increased and after the introduction of new domains it could be OK.
There is also the question how quickly could react  the development for implementation of new fees by changed NMC price. But here could help a wider range of available names, some of them very cheap others more expensive.

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phelix
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May 27, 2013, 02:52:35 PM
 #624

We need to be very careful with a hard fork. A lot of pool operators are already ranting about Namecoin and might take any effort as an excuse to stop Namecoin merged mining. On the other hand side, if we get improved stability I am sure difficulty will rise again.

Tx fees
By default the client should pay a reasonable fee, decided on by the community / the devs. Only then is it possible for miners to raise the bar because then the majority of txs includes a fee.

I would prefer if high priority tx would have to pay standard fees but it is not important. There is no way to enforce using priorities on miners so it is wise to always include fees anyways.

Name op fees
[trolololo]

Currently a name_new costs/locks about $0.01 worth of NMC, a name_update costs nothing. I think a name_update should cost/lock the same fixed amount as a name_new.

Sending fees to a foundation or something is politically very difficult.

A lot of short names (domain namespace) have already been registered so any larger change should also make name_update more expensive to make it more expensive to hold on to short names.

The idea of making shorter names more expensive certainly makes sense (1 letter name 10 times more expensive than 2 letter name 10 times more expensive than 3 letter name 10 times ...).

Full disclosure: I have registered plenty of short domains myself. If it were more expensive to hold domains I would have let expire a lot of names.

Coin locking for name_ops
Is a non issue at the moment imho. It would be much better if coins could never be unlocked but be destroyed because then the name_ops would come with a price tag rather than a deposit.

Allowed value size
Current limit 520byte
--> 1000byte (fix)
--> 9000byte (change)


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virtualmaster
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May 27, 2013, 04:47:51 PM
 #625


Sending fees to a foundation or something is politically very difficult.

That is true. I thought also about it.
But what about giving the election for the user who is registering a domain name if destroying(or donating to a Namecoin Development Foundation) a fixed amount of namecoins ?
In this case those who are opposing the idea can select the usual destroying fee method. Some don't like the destroying coins and may be would be more acceptable for them donating it.

The other option binding namecoin vs destroying I am also not sure which is better.
Destroying namecoins in very long term could have a positive effect on the namecoin prices but may be we don't live so long.
Binding namecoins(larger amount than the amount which would be destroyed) would have an immediate effect because reducing supply. Binding namecoins doesn't reduce market volume also, which would have a positive effect on the market capitalization statistics.

Best would be a selection between binding coins or donating a lesser amount but because of the different amount it could be confusing for the users.
So I would rather suggest donating/destroying selection or binding a higher amount. We could also try different solutions by different domains and we will see which is better.

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jonytk
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May 27, 2013, 06:16:00 PM
 #626

About the fees, there should definitely be higher than bitcoin, maybe 10 times higher? now is ok
i understand gavin is working on some automatic value, but we need something easy.
and the fees also need to go down, at least half the value every 4 years,
since the number of coins created is fixed and halves every 4 years.
the same goes for name_new and name_update
and of course name_update should only be free if it doesn't use more space on the blockchain.

and last thing, maybe it's better make domains/info expire every 4 years not 1.


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May 27, 2013, 06:47:14 PM
 #627


and last thing, maybe it's better make domains/info expire every 4 years not 1.

It would be even better if it would be customizable between 1/2 year and 5 years in 1/2 year steps. May be not everybody needs it for 4 years.

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cassini
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May 27, 2013, 08:12:07 PM
 #628


and last thing, maybe it's better make domains/info expire every 4 years not 1.

It would be even better if it would be customizable between 1/2 year and 5 years in 1/2 year steps. May be not everybody needs it for 4 years.
I think there should be a fixed expiration time of 1 year, particularly for domain names. As long as it is quite cheap to register names, a lot of people experiment with namecoin, register some names and then lose interest. There must be a chance for others to name_new these names after one year at the latest.
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May 27, 2013, 08:58:26 PM
 #629

i think we have a lot of good ideas.. but going back to what Khal said.. it needs to simple.

we don't want to change anything drastic.. still lots of time to think about it

tho: a messaging system in which the data is not stored in the block chain would be the ultimate thing to add... this is needed.... to send a message would be good if it cost a small fee, like 0.0005... then if namecoin took off and millions of people would be using NMC-IM, there would be an incentive to mine it (due to the extra coins).. and also people would have to top-up their NMC wallet with 10nmc every now and then.... (edit: but if it's not stored in the block chain it may as well be free)

at least wait a couple of months before we think about fees.

I think all fees should go to miners (i don't like the idea of some fees going into some sort of bounty wallet, personally).


snailbrain
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May 27, 2013, 09:02:23 PM
 #630

the only problem at the moment is people spamming block chain with data?
Fees can fix this..
i don't see a problem with any other fees?

what are the problems with namecoin atm... this is the question, then we can find the solutions?

wtb list

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May 27, 2013, 10:11:37 PM
 #631

keep up the good work guys! 


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May 27, 2013, 10:13:45 PM
 #632

We need to be very careful with a hard fork. A lot of pool operators are already ranting about Namecoin and might take any effort as an excuse to stop Namecoin merged mining. On the other hand side, if we get improved stability I am sure difficulty will rise again.
We must not wait too long too, otherwise they will really all stop mining :p


As far as I understand khal this is not the case any more, is it? Is the 0.01NMC being enforced by the network or can it be changed to a lower value by recompiling? That would be bad.
It seems it is not the case indeed... Oops


Currently a name_new costs/locks about $0.01 worth of NMC, a name_update costs nothing. I think a name_update should cost/lock the same fixed amount as a name_new.
Wouldn't it be simplier to improve the fee per kB ? Plus, as it seems the locked fee can be anything...
A name_update costs fees if you renew it before some combinaison of parameters :
Quote from: khal source=http://dot-bit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2863#p2863
So, to be without tx fees, a name_update of 460 bytes (a small one) with 0.01NMC (1000000) must wait :
=> 57600000 / 1000000 * 460 = 26496 blocks

A big one (1000 bytes, with 547 characters in the field value) :
=> 57600000 / 1000000 * 1000 = 57600 blocks

Limit value (625 bytes, with 172 characters in the field value) :
=> 57600000 / 1000000 * 625 = 36000 blocks


keep up the good work guys! 
:p

NMC: N1KHAL5C1CRzy58NdJwp1tbLze3XrkFxx9 | NamecoinID: id/khal | Register .bit domain
BTC: 1KHAL8bUjnkMRMg9yd2dNrYnJgZGH8Nj6T | My bitcoin Identity: send messages to bitcoin users
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May 27, 2013, 10:22:12 PM
 #633

the only problem at the moment is people spamming block chain with data?
Fees can fix this..
i don't see a problem with any other fees?

what are the problems with namecoin atm... this is the question, then we can find the solutions?

wtb list
See http://dot-bit.org/Network_Rules_Upgrade :
- We need to fix the bug which limit the value to 520B => hard fork required, so we can upgrade to 9k instead.
- Fees are not adapted (coins are split & data storage is very cheap) => spam

See http://dot-bit.org/UpgradeNamecoinCode :
- Current namecoin is not efficient => switch to recent bitcoin code

NMC: N1KHAL5C1CRzy58NdJwp1tbLze3XrkFxx9 | NamecoinID: id/khal | Register .bit domain
BTC: 1KHAL8bUjnkMRMg9yd2dNrYnJgZGH8Nj6T | My bitcoin Identity: send messages to bitcoin users
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khal
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May 27, 2013, 11:58:14 PM
 #634

tho: a messaging system in which the data is not stored in the block chain would be the ultimate thing to add... this is needed.... to send a message would be good if it cost a small fee, like 0.0005... then if namecoin took off and millions of people would be using NMC-IM, there would be an incentive to mine it (due to the extra coins).. and also people would have to top-up their NMC wallet with 10nmc every now and then.... (edit: but if it's not stored in the block chain it may as well be free)
how to pay fees without a tx in the blockchain ? :p
At least there must be one tx in and one tx out for the change, unspent part is the fee for miners. Out of the chain, a msg is broadcasted, like a tx/block/addr/etc, with the hash of the tx and auto-signed with the key used by the tx.

Another possibility is to spend the tx with the fee (std tx with its hash) + a second hash of the tx + the data, and only the first part is stored in the bc.

Avoidind several msg to be sent for one tx would be a pain for something that should not be stored :p

NMC: N1KHAL5C1CRzy58NdJwp1tbLze3XrkFxx9 | NamecoinID: id/khal | Register .bit domain
BTC: 1KHAL8bUjnkMRMg9yd2dNrYnJgZGH8Nj6T | My bitcoin Identity: send messages to bitcoin users
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snailbrain
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May 28, 2013, 12:37:20 AM
 #635

tho: a messaging system in which the data is not stored in the block chain would be the ultimate thing to add... this is needed.... to send a message would be good if it cost a small fee, like 0.0005... then if namecoin took off and millions of people would be using NMC-IM, there would be an incentive to mine it (due to the extra coins).. and also people would have to top-up their NMC wallet with 10nmc every now and then.... (edit: but if it's not stored in the block chain it may as well be free)
how to pay fees without a tx in the blockchain ? :p
At least there must be one tx in and one tx out for the change, unspent part is the fee for miners. Out of the chain, a msg is broadcasted, like a tx/block/addr/etc, with the hash of the tx and auto-signed with the key used by the tx.

Another possibility is to spend the tx with the fee (std tx with its hash) + a second hash of the tx + the data, and only the first part is stored in the bc.

Avoidind several msg to be sent for one tx would be a pain for something that should not be stored :p

yep, and may as well be free if not stored in block chain (realized this and edited earlier.. should have edited the beginning of the paragraph Smiley)


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May 28, 2013, 09:49:26 PM
 #636

Good work Khal.
Unfortunately I cannot help you by coding the client because I started just recently to study deeper technical details in Bitcoin/Namecoin.
But I am improving step by step my small project of merged bitcoin/namecoin wallet. Now I will add signature for a message with a namecoin address.

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May 28, 2013, 10:59:03 PM
 #637

RPC command walletpassphrase added (and extras)
Progress bar added (does the job)

Please test and give any errors when compiling on Linux.

In essence this should now be a fully working client.. all name commands usable from debug window... with Encryption working.

as new commands have been added, we have set version to 3.55
You can compile the namecoind...

see commit
Quote
walletpassphrase and related commands, privkey dump/import, GUI
improvements: ran Qt lupdate on translation files to fix line numbers,
progress bar (simple - based on block count, not tx count), tray icon
remaining after exit. Set version to 3.55.

https://github.com/namecoin-qt/namecoin-qt/commit/a85e46773654a19e4964fba026e1d928ebd76cd8

https://github.com/namecoin-qt/namecoin-qt

Windows binaries - Namecoin-qt + Namecoind
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/3aa8ukj7v6m5d/Namecoin-qt


we are working on Nelisky's RPC commands next


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May 29, 2013, 04:49:44 AM
 #638

Yeah but the bitcoin fees are voluntary, the minimum fee is just a default of the official client. As far as I can tell the name_firstupdate fee is network-enforced, so it will become way harder to change if namecoin becomes widely used. Anyway, still would like to know the reason why vinced decided to put that 0.01 NC minimum since the only purpose of that fee is to reduce domain squatting early on. If the fee is left there then the money supply will begin to contract at some point when the block reward becomes less than the rate of destruction.

Just A Guy Interested In Bitcoins
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May 29, 2013, 05:41:06 AM
 #639

Yeah but the bitcoin fees are voluntary, the minimum fee is just a default of the official client. As far as I can tell the name_firstupdate fee is network-enforced, so it will become way harder to change if namecoin becomes widely used. Anyway, still would like to know the reason why vinced decided to put that 0.01 NC minimum since the only purpose of that fee is to reduce domain squatting early on. If the fee is left there then the money supply will begin to contract at some point when the block reward becomes less than the rate of destruction.
The Namecoin fee is also voluntary if you are sending namecoins from one address to another like you use with bitcoins. The fee is for a Namecoin specific service, the domain registration., which you cannot compare with bitcoin. This service requires additional work from the miners and from the DNS servers. However some people are opposing coin destruction and I proposed in this thread other alternative methods to protect the network against spam. Each of them has some advantages and disadvantages.
Some other choices could be namecoin binding or donation for a Namecoin Development Found(for those who prefer instead of coin destruction).

Calendars for free to print: 2014 Calendar in JPG | 2014 Calendar in PDF Protect the Environment with Namecoin: 2014 Calendar in JPG | 2014 Calendar in PDF
Namecoinia.org  -  take the planet in your hands
BTC: 15KXVQv7UGtUoTe5VNWXT1bMz46MXuePba   |  NMC: NABFA31b3x7CvhKMxcipUqA3TnKsNfCC7S
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May 29, 2013, 11:42:41 AM
 #640

Using, hope I trust you Smiley

RPC command walletpassphrase added (and extras)
Progress bar added (does the job)

Please test and give any errors when compiling on Linux.

In essence this should now be a fully working client.. all name commands usable from debug window... with Encryption working.

as new commands have been added, we have set version to 3.55
You can compile the namecoind...

see commit
Quote
walletpassphrase and related commands, privkey dump/import, GUI
improvements: ran Qt lupdate on translation files to fix line numbers,
progress bar (simple - based on block count, not tx count), tray icon
remaining after exit. Set version to 3.55.

https://github.com/namecoin-qt/namecoin-qt/commit/a85e46773654a19e4964fba026e1d928ebd76cd8

https://github.com/namecoin-qt/namecoin-qt

Windows binaries - Namecoin-qt + Namecoind
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/3aa8ukj7v6m5d/Namecoin-qt


we are working on Nelisky's RPC commands next



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