Northstar
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December 08, 2015, 03:09:43 PM |
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Doog was giving me coding 101 advice, though I am sure he has better things to do with his time. Then he fixes a competitor's site without even being asked to do it, even though he could have exploited the shit out of it for personal gain. These kinds of things restore faith in humanity all around. Thank you for being a stand up kinda guy in a sea of greedy assholes, Doog!
While we are on the subject of your technical expertise, what is your opinion on SuperClam's proposal, from a technical point of view? Do you foresee any negative ramifications?
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P-Funk
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Token
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December 08, 2015, 03:17:28 PM |
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Would any of this potentially have a negative impact on the performance of Clamclient?
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SuperClam (OP)
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December 08, 2015, 03:44:17 PM |
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Would any of this potentially have a negative impact on the performance of Clamclient? Storing a handful of integers once a ~minute shouldn't be horrible. Complicated queries against that data might be more so, but would be user initiated. More importantly, under "Technical Notes": This data would be stored 'off-chain' and could thus be optional.
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dooglus
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December 08, 2015, 05:58:55 PM |
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** Transaction Fee Pooling to Improve Security
* Petition Reasoning:
To add incentive for nodes to broadcast and share user transactions.
How does this add incentive for nodes to broadcast transactions rather than hoarding them? I don't see it. Also, you were concerned in IRC that this kind of pooling removes the possibility of a fee market, since individual stakers no longer have an incentive to prioritise transactions based on fee size. I responded that giving out a bigger percentage of the fee pool would solve this. 08:06 < creativeCLAM> So, if you don't do a fee pool, then stakers can include as many bytes as they want into the chain, without cost. 08:06 < creativeCLAM> That is a security issue. 08:07 < creativeCLAM> However, WITH a fee pool, stakers have less incentive to include high-paying transaction with preference, as they are just incrementing the fee-pool, not their personal balance 08:07 < creativeCLAM> ideally, you want a system with limited block space, for bloat security, and to apply market pressure on tx fees. 08:08 < dooglus> you can have an exponential decay type thing: 08:08 < dooglus> the staker gets 50% of the fee, next block gets 30%, 10, 5, ... 08:08 < dooglus> so there's some incentive to include highest fee tx's, but also some incentive not to spam 08:09 < creativeCLAM> Interesting, that comes at the cost of allowing stakers to include bits for "cheaper". 08:09 < creativeCLAM> But, it does somewhat balance the situation. 08:10 < dooglus> yeah, they get it half-price
Did you decide that the fee-market isn't important? Chain Analytics
- It is extremely important that we have thorough and detailed data concerning the block chain and network.
It strikes me that this isn't a consensus issue, and so you are free to add it to the client any time you like. We don't need to 'vote' on this. "Patches welcome", as we say... (or even just a github issue would suffice) For example, I added an RPC call "getsupport" to the client last night. It counts up the support for each petition over a rolling window. I didn't think I had any need to gauge support for the feature, since it isn't consensus-changing. It looks like this, by the way: $ clamd getsupport { "window" : 10000, "startblock" : 754153, "endblock" : 764152, "support" : { "0000cb61" : 231, "02fde4a4" : 3, "066b223d" : 3, "5afa074c" : 673, "7a69a853" : 21, "ea06c089" : 298, "ff839af9" : 576 } }
Doog was giving me coding 101 advice, though I am sure he has better things to do with his time. Then he fixes a competitor's site without even being asked to do it, even though he could have exploited the shit out of it for personal gain. These kinds of things restore faith in humanity all around. Thank you for being a stand up kinda guy in a sea of greedy assholes, Doog!
I earned 3 BTC without having to steal anything too! Edit: I think Deb may be a little butthurt at your comment. I just noticed this on IRC: 17:27 < Princess> ok, i gotta get off my ass and get work done here 17:27 < Princess> and i need to drag doog away to help me with some of it 17:27 < Princess> i hope humanity will be ok without him for a bit 17:27 < Princess> ffs While we are on the subject of your technical expertise, what is your opinion on SuperClam's proposal, from a technical point of view? Do you foresee any negative ramifications?
I think it's a reasonable idea, and don't see how anyone could object to it. It's a zero-sum change and smooths the rewards out over time. I'm not sure about the 1% number. I think something higher would help form a fee market.
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Northstar
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December 08, 2015, 06:57:30 PM |
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** Transaction Fee Pooling to Improve Security
* Petition Reasoning:
To add incentive for nodes to broadcast and share user transactions.
How does this add incentive for nodes to broadcast transactions rather than hoarding them? I don't see it. Also, you were concerned in IRC that this kind of pooling removes the possibility of a fee market, since individual stakers no longer have an incentive to prioritise transactions based on fee size. I responded that giving out a bigger percentage of the fee pool would solve this. 08:06 < creativeCLAM> So, if you don't do a fee pool, then stakers can include as many bytes as they want into the chain, without cost. 08:06 < creativeCLAM> That is a security issue. 08:07 < creativeCLAM> However, WITH a fee pool, stakers have less incentive to include high-paying transaction with preference, as they are just incrementing the fee-pool, not their personal balance 08:07 < creativeCLAM> ideally, you want a system with limited block space, for bloat security, and to apply market pressure on tx fees. 08:08 < dooglus> you can have an exponential decay type thing: 08:08 < dooglus> the staker gets 50% of the fee, next block gets 30%, 10, 5, ... 08:08 < dooglus> so there's some incentive to include highest fee tx's, but also some incentive not to spam 08:09 < creativeCLAM> Interesting, that comes at the cost of allowing stakers to include bits for "cheaper". 08:09 < creativeCLAM> But, it does somewhat balance the situation. 08:10 < dooglus> yeah, they get it half-price
Did you decide that the fee-market isn't important? Chain Analytics
- It is extremely important that we have thorough and detailed data concerning the block chain and network.
It strikes me that this isn't a consensus issue, and so you are free to add it to the client any time you like. We don't need to 'vote' on this. "Patches welcome", as we say... (or even just a github issue would suffice) For example, I added an RPC call "getsupport" to the client last night. It counts up the support for each petition over a rolling window. I didn't think I had any need to gauge support for the feature, since it isn't consensus-changing. It looks like this, by the way: $ clamd getsupport { "window" : 10000, "startblock" : 754153, "endblock" : 764152, "support" : { "0000cb61" : 231, "02fde4a4" : 3, "066b223d" : 3, "5afa074c" : 673, "7a69a853" : 21, "ea06c089" : 298, "ff839af9" : 576 } }
Doog was giving me coding 101 advice, though I am sure he has better things to do with his time. Then he fixes a competitor's site without even being asked to do it, even though he could have exploited the shit out of it for personal gain. These kinds of things restore faith in humanity all around. Thank you for being a stand up kinda guy in a sea of greedy assholes, Doog!
I earned 3 BTC without having to steal anything too! Edit: I think Deb may be a little butthurt at your comment. I just noticed this on IRC: 17:27 < Princess> ok, i gotta get off my ass and get work done here 17:27 < Princess> and i need to drag doog away to help me with some of it 17:27 < Princess> i hope humanity will be ok without him for a bit 17:27 < Princess> ffs While we are on the subject of your technical expertise, what is your opinion on SuperClam's proposal, from a technical point of view? Do you foresee any negative ramifications?
I think it's a reasonable idea, and don't see how anyone could object to it. It's a zero-sum change and smooths the rewards out over time. I'm not sure about the 1% number. I think something higher would help form a fee market. Lol tell Deb I will sacrifice a Rabbit in her honour also, restoring faith in humanity > cleaning, duh
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smooth
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December 08, 2015, 10:33:25 PM Last edit: December 08, 2015, 10:51:51 PM by smooth |
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Why is it advantageous to have most of this done by the node itself rather than independent chain explorer and analytics type tools, similar to what you get on blockchain.info? IMO, if it can be done outside the node, it should be done outside the node. The node itself being critical to the functioning of the network. What if a bug is introduced that introduces a crash of every node on the network when some statistics counter overflows? I'm not saying this is likely, but the risk is entirely unnecessary. Obviously per-node mempool data needs to be collected by each node, but I don't really see the network as even remotely large enough for that to matter. Bitcoin only reached that point recently.
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smooth
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December 08, 2015, 10:42:26 PM Last edit: December 09, 2015, 12:25:57 AM by smooth |
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I do not support due to high potential for various perverse incentives and unintended consequences. The most natural and robust interpretation of fees is an incentive for block-creators to include truncations in a block (payment for scarce block size). There are better mechanisms to in turn control block size and limit spam, such as a reward penalty. These will naturally pull fees higher via a market mechanism. Trying to go the other direction is akin to pushing on a rope. Reward penalties are especially suitable for CLAM since the block reward is fixed, unlike Bitcoin. @dooglas you can (and will) still have a fee market if any portion of the fee, even 1%, is kept by the block creator. It will dramatically drive up the price of block space though, probably to levels above the social optimum. Though you still face the issue of hidden fees being paid out of band, and the incentive to do so will be large. Again, none of this is likely what is intended. Tx fees are a round peg trying to be shoved into a square hole here.
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smooth
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December 09, 2015, 02:36:01 AM |
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It strikes me that this isn't a consensus issue, and so you are free to add it to the client any time you like. We don't need to 'vote' on this.
There's lot of things that aren't consensus issues, but would be great to have votes on anyway. e.g. Take my earlier idea that in a block-race stakers would randomly select a block (rather than use the first-seen) to minimize the orphan-risk for honest miners who produce big-blocks. I don't think that's a consensus issue, but seems like it'd be crazy to adopt something without knowing what everyone thought? (Or another good example is mempool policy in bitcoin (Current vs FSS-BRB, Opt-in RBF, Full RBF) which seems wildly controversial, but with the shilling and censorship around it, it seems impossible to get a feel for support of each) Consensus issues don't need to be voted on either, nor is it particularly useful to do so. If there is consensus, it will be obvious. If there is a real need for a vote, there is very likely no consensus. However, voting on development priorities is useful, as a means for the developers to get some idea what coin owners (somewhat an indicator of coin users) think is important. No one really wants to work on things that aren't wanted.
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dooglus
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December 09, 2015, 05:40:16 AM |
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However, voting on development priorities is useful, as a means for the developers to get some idea what coin owners (somewhat an indicator of coin users) think is important. No one really wants to work on things that aren't wanted.
I see your point, but I mostly add the features that I want the most. If that happens to correspond with what lots of other people also want then that's nice. I guess probably more people use the Qt client than the command line but I don't like working on it and so avoid it as much as possible. If lots of people want a better Qt client then I expect one of them will make it happen. If not, I guess it isn't really that important, and if they do that's cool with me - it doesn't affect the client I use, or the network as a whole.
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Just-Dice | ██ ██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████ | Play or Invest | ██ ██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████ | 1% House Edge |
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smooth
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December 09, 2015, 08:07:03 AM |
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However, voting on development priorities is useful, as a means for the developers to get some idea what coin owners (somewhat an indicator of coin users) think is important. No one really wants to work on things that aren't wanted.
I see your point, but I mostly add the features that I want the most. If that happens to correspond with what lots of other people also want then that's nice. I guess probably more people use the Qt client than the command line but I don't like working on it and so avoid it as much as possible. If lots of people want a better Qt client then I expect one of them will make it happen. If not, I guess it isn't really that important, and if they do that's cool with me - it doesn't affect the client I use, or the network as a whole. You're right. A lot of open source gets done (especially when being done by volunteers) because the developer doing it wants the feature. Nothing wrong with that.
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romjpn
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December 09, 2015, 09:46:17 AM |
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Alright, here we come 1$ !
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---~~~***~~~--- http://InvestBitcoinGuide.com ---~~~***~~~--- Invest your bitcoins/altcoins into legit businesses. Get solid returns ! We hate scams and ponzis !
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ReturnOfTheMAC
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December 09, 2015, 12:16:28 PM |
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Damn CLAM is doing well this week - just one steady uptrend looking like its about to launch!
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MonsterZeroPrice
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December 09, 2015, 06:40:38 PM |
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Can anybody imagine to help Jared (dev of digibyte) to get his coin on the right track?
This community has proven to be outstanding. Clams will reach 1 billion market cap no doubt.
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dooglus
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December 09, 2015, 07:59:48 PM |
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Have a nice day bigfoots. I expect someone to raise this to 0.003, it would be very funny. Anyway, it's not gonna happen, want facts? Here you have one: 0.0025 WAS THE TOP, IT WILL NEVER TOUCH NOR SURPASS IT AGAIN. I'll just leave this here:
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Just-Dice | ██ ██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████ | Play or Invest | ██ ██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████ | 1% House Edge |
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TheFiendishOne
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December 09, 2015, 09:28:58 PM |
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How long before my free clams from a wallet import are visible in my wallet?
Am I supposed to import before the client syncs to 100%? Am I supposed to resync? Did I do this backwards?
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dooglus
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December 09, 2015, 09:30:56 PM |
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How long before my free clams from a wallet import are visible in my wallet?
Am I supposed to import before the client syncs to 100%? Am I supposed to resync? Did I do this backwards?
It doesn't matter whether you sync or import first. You need to be synced up to at least block 10,000 to see your free CLAMs. And if you import the old privkeys *after* you sync the chain, you need to -rescan before you will see the coins - but I think the import command does that for you.
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Just-Dice | ██ ██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████ | Play or Invest | ██ ██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████ | 1% House Edge |
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TheFiendishOne
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December 09, 2015, 10:57:36 PM Last edit: December 09, 2015, 11:14:27 PM by TheFiendishOne |
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Is it possible that http://clam.makejar.com/ was wrong and I didn't have clams to claim? Rescan didnt work. **EDIT** I just moved the blockchain and started a new download. That worked. CLAMS FOR ME!
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dooglus
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December 09, 2015, 11:13:55 PM |
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Try using Just-Dice's "chat" tab. Type /dig and the BTC/LTC/DOGE address. It will tell you whether the address received any CLAMs and whether they have already been claimed. For example, I type: /dig 1P2MktBR3dYoM71jJapSfLBqimAHMADY4K and it tells me: 15:10:20 INFO: BTC address [1P2MktBR] was not funded on 12th May 2014; [xWKzem1t] is the corresponding CLAM address; see [history:1P2MktBR] for a history of its balance where the [...] texts are links. Or I type: /dig 14o7zMMUJkG6De24r3JkJ6USgChq7iWF86 and it tells me: 15:11:50 INFO: CLAM address [xC6ktEBw] corresponding to BTC address [14o7zMMU] was funded with 4.60545574 CLAM when the initial distribution was made; the CLAMs were already dug up, sorry or, for an address I know is still funded but don't own: /dig 1CrPRwBkwZdEejXusCbh8o35YMN7g7ffKf and it says: 15:12:49 INFO: CLAM address [xLA2Kp2E] corresponding to BTC address [1CrPRwBk] was funded with 4.60545574 CLAM when the initial distribution was made; the CLAMs have not been spent and are waiting for you to collect them; [further instructions]
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Just-Dice | ██ ██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████ | Play or Invest | ██ ██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████ | 1% House Edge |
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TheFiendishOne
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December 09, 2015, 11:16:07 PM |
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Thank you so much for that post. I will use that to double check. I seem to have done *Something* wrong because I just started redownloading the blockchain and the transactions came in.
Thanks for your help!
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dooglus
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December 10, 2015, 07:21:20 AM |
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Have a nice day bigfoots. I expect someone to raise this to 0.003, it would be very funny. Anyway, it's not gonna happen, want facts? Here you have one: 0.0025 WAS THE TOP, IT WILL NEVER TOUCH NOR SURPASS IT AGAIN. Your move, Mr. Vulture: Is it funny yet?
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Just-Dice | ██ ██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████ | Play or Invest | ██ ██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████ | 1% House Edge |
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