[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[edmundduke]

That clamour stuff was just a scam to shut up the people who wanted end digging?
When need 90% of votes to make any changes that clamour stuff has really no meaning.
Is hard enough get over 50% to care, but over 90% of votes they get only in North Korea and places like that.

This is the first I've heard of 90% support being needed.

Incidentally here's the support for each petition over the last 10,000 blocks:

$ clamd getsupport
{
  "threshold" : 0,
  "window" : 10000,
  "endblock" : 805025,
  "startblock" : 795026,
  "support" : {
    "0000cb61" : 195,
    "02fde4a4" : 499,
    "066b223d" : 69,
    "26dfbf81" : 38,
    "5afa074c" : 3807,
    "694c26a6" : 413,
    "7a69a853" : 1664,
    "c9328886" : 46,
    "deaddea1" : 23,
    "e2ef93da" : 44,
    "ea06c089" : 1713,
    "eff96b06" : 26,
    "ff839af9" : 2261
  }
}

"5afa074c" (stop digging) has the most support, at 38.07%

So what is the % need for change anything?

   Technically you would need greater then 50%.  But as smooth points out, to make sure you have a smooth transition you would need to make sure you have more then a slight margin.  55%, 60% 70%, but no where near the 90%.  You need enough of a cushion so that if you made the change, you would have greater then 50% staking power to keep moving your chain ahead.    

But not everyone want to vote for or against digging. So if 20% not want to vote for and against. Then 40% is half of the votes

Well that is the way it is. Im also thinking something like 60%+ or it could start a chain reaction of "dig" vs "no dig". 38% support is already pretty high and it will eventually win over, there is actually no other chance right now. As the amount of coins in JD grows, the % of those coins will also(as they own so many). Eventually it will take over and the digs will stop. Just a matter of time.

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[thefix]

That clamour stuff was just a scam to shut up the people who wanted end digging?
When need 90% of votes to make any changes that clamour stuff has really no meaning.
Is hard enough get over 50% to care, but over 90% of votes they get only in North Korea and places like that.

This is the first I've heard of 90% support being needed.

Incidentally here's the support for each petition over the last 10,000 blocks:

$ clamd getsupport
{
  "threshold" : 0,
  "window" : 10000,
  "endblock" : 805025,
  "startblock" : 795026,
  "support" : {
    "0000cb61" : 195,
    "02fde4a4" : 499,
    "066b223d" : 69,
    "26dfbf81" : 38,
    "5afa074c" : 3807,
    "694c26a6" : 413,
    "7a69a853" : 1664,
    "c9328886" : 46,
    "deaddea1" : 23,
    "e2ef93da" : 44,
    "ea06c089" : 1713,
    "eff96b06" : 26,
    "ff839af9" : 2261
  }
}

"5afa074c" (stop digging) has the most support, at 38.07%

So what is the % need for change anything?

   Technically you would need greater then 50%.  But as smooth points out, to make sure you have a smooth transition you would need to make sure you have more then a slight margin.  55%, 60% 70%, but no where near the 90%.  You need enough of a cushion so that if you made the change, you would have greater then 50% staking power to keep moving your chain ahead.   

But not everyone want to vote for or against digging. So if 20% not want to vote for and against. Then 40% is half of the votes

The way I understand it is if you do not vote then it is a vote to do nothing. In order for something to get considered at least 51% plus of the network must vote on that item. So people that do not vote are actually voting by default

[dooglus]

But not everyone want to vote for or against digging. So if 20% not want to vote for and against. Then 40% is half of the votes

I think it's fair to assume that if 20% don't want to vote, they also don't want to upgrade their client. We need >50% to upgrade for any change to actually take place.

Of course as things currently stand we have a single staker with 75% of the stake weight, so this isn't an issue. The 75% staker can safely accept a change that has >50% support and know there won't be problems with excessive forking and orphaning.

[gamblingbad]

But not everyone want to vote for or against digging. So if 20% not want to vote for and against. Then 40% is half of the votes

I think it's fair to assume that if 20% don't want to vote, they also don't want to upgrade their client. We need >50% to upgrade for any change to actually take place.

Of course as things currently stand we have a single staker with 75% of the stake weight, so this isn't an issue. The 75% staker can safely accept a change that has >50% support and know there won't be problems with excessive forking and orphaning.

JD has not 84% stake weight?

[dooglus]

JD has not 84% stake weight?

More than 55%. Enough. Whatever.

[smooth]

That clamour stuff was just a scam to shut up the people who wanted end digging?
When need 90% of votes to make any changes that clamour stuff has really no meaning.
Is hard enough get over 50% to care, but over 90% of votes they get only in North Korea and places like that.

This is the first I've heard of 90% support being needed.

Incidentally here's the support for each petition over the last 10,000 blocks:

$ clamd getsupport
{
  "threshold" : 0,
  "window" : 10000,
  "endblock" : 805025,
  "startblock" : 795026,
  "support" : {
    "0000cb61" : 195,
    "02fde4a4" : 499,
    "066b223d" : 69,
    "26dfbf81" : 38,
    "5afa074c" : 3807,
    "694c26a6" : 413,
    "7a69a853" : 1664,
    "c9328886" : 46,
    "deaddea1" : 23,
    "e2ef93da" : 44,
    "ea06c089" : 1713,
    "eff96b06" : 26,
    "ff839af9" : 2261
  }
}

"5afa074c" (stop digging) has the most support, at 38.07%

So what is the % need for change anything?

Technically you would need greater then 50%.  But as smooth points out, to make sure you have a smooth transition you would need to make sure you have more then a slight margin.  55%, 60% 70%, but no where near the 90%.  You need enough of a cushion so that if you made the change, you would have greater then 50% staking power to keep moving your chain ahead.   

You are incorrect about this if you want to avoid massive chain forks and reorgs, and I think you do. The calculations are on page 8 of satoshi's whitepaper. With 55% you will have a 340 block reorg 1/1000 (which I think would happen ~once per day on CLAM, but I may be messing up that calculation). 

Really you need at least 75-80% to avoid frequent reorgs and greatly reducing the security of the chain.

However, dooglus says that he will deploy his supermajority JD stake in support of just majority votes, so in effect he is treating the coin as a centrally-run system (which it is) with a "majority rules" rule that he decided to enact.

[ReturnOfTheMAC]

I have a large supply of CLAM on polo for trading and lending purposes - Can I vote for the removal of digging too?

[dooglus]

I have a large supply of CLAM on polo for trading and lending purposes - Can I vote for the removal of digging too?

Unfortunately not. Poloniex refuse to stake their coins.

You could withdraw them and stake them yourself however.

[ReturnOfTheMAC]

I have a large supply of CLAM on polo for trading and lending purposes - Can I vote for the removal of digging too?

Unfortunately not. Poloniex refuse to stake their coins.

You could withdraw them and stake them yourself however.

Is it a relatively simple procedure? or perhaps a step by step guide available? The whole petition thing is quite over my head I'm afraid but I would love to vote =)

[micalith]

I have a large supply of CLAM on polo for trading and lending purposes - Can I vote for the removal of digging too?

Unfortunately not. Poloniex refuse to stake their coins.

You could withdraw them and stake them yourself however.

Is it a relatively simple procedure? or perhaps a step by step guide available? The whole petition thing is quite over my head I'm afraid but I would love to vote =)

I've not had the time to figure it out for myself either. Has anyone made a straight forward step by step guide somewhere for those who might need it?

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

I have a large supply of CLAM on polo for trading and lending purposes - Can I vote for the removal of digging too?

Unfortunately not. Poloniex refuse to stake their coins.

You could withdraw them and stake them yourself however.

Is it a relatively simple procedure? or perhaps a step by step guide available? The whole petition thing is quite over my head I'm afraid but I would love to vote =)

I've not had the time to figure it out for myself either. Has anyone made a straight forward step by step guide somewhere for those who might need it?

No user guides!!  The CLAMidea (careful how you say that) system is a poll test.  If you ain't aristocratic able enough to figure it out, then you get to watch.

[djhomeschool]

No user guides!!  The CLAMidea (careful how you say that) system is a poll test.  If you ain't aristocratic able enough to figure it out, then you get to watch.

Why?

[SuperClam]

I have a large supply of CLAM on polo for trading and lending purposes - Can I vote for the removal of digging too?

Unfortunately not. Poloniex refuse to stake their coins.
You could withdraw them and stake them yourself however.

Is it a relatively simple procedure? or perhaps a step by step guide available? The whole petition thing is quite over my head I'm afraid but I would love to vote =)

I've not had the time to figure it out for myself either. Has anyone made a straight forward step by step guide somewhere for those who might need it?

No user guides!!  The CLAMidea (careful how you say that) system is a poll test.  If you ain't aristocratic able enough to figure it out, then you get to watch.

There will be a full explanation and user guide available on the website once the client is squared-away.

[micalith]

I have a large supply of CLAM on polo for trading and lending purposes - Can I vote for the removal of digging too?

Unfortunately not. Poloniex refuse to stake their coins.
You could withdraw them and stake them yourself however.

Is it a relatively simple procedure? or perhaps a step by step guide available? The whole petition thing is quite over my head I'm afraid but I would love to vote =)

I've not had the time to figure it out for myself either. Has anyone made a straight forward step by step guide somewhere for those who might need it?

No user guides!!  The CLAMidea (careful how you say that) system is a poll test.  If you ain't aristocratic able enough to figure it out, then you get to watch.

There will be a full explanation and user guide available on the website once the client is squared-away.

Cool. Thanks. Big up all you CLAMdevs for your good work

[dooglus]

You could withdraw them and stake them yourself however.

Is it a relatively simple procedure? or perhaps a step by step guide available? The whole petition thing is quite over my head I'm afraid but I would love to vote =)

I've not had the time to figure it out for myself either. Has anyone made a straight forward step by step guide somewhere for those who might need it?

If you want to have your voice heard in the CLAMour system I think there are currently two options:

1) download and sync the CLAM client, withdraw your CLAMs from poloniex to your local wallet, set your CLAMspeech to support the petition(s) you like

OR

2) make an account at Just-Dice.com, withdraw your CLAMs from poloniex to your Just-Dice deposit address, invest them in the JD bankroll and specify the petition(s) you support in the account tab.

Option 1 is better in terms of decentralising the coin. Over 73% of all the CLAMs that have ever moved at currently at Just-Dice, which clearly not good in terms of having a robust decentralised network. But syncing the blockchain is kind of a pain, taking many hours or even days. I provide a bootstrap.dat file updated which helps a lot in getting your client synced up.

The next release of the client will have direct support for CLAMour, but it isn't ready yet. The current release does let you specify your CLAMspeech. Set it to "clamour nnnnnnnn" where nnnnnnnn is the 8 digit code for the petition you support. You can specify multiple 8 digit codes; use a space to separate each pair of codes. I was maintaining a list of registered petitions at http://txti.es/clamour but haven't updated it for a while. PM me if you need something added to the list.

Option 2 will stake your coins for you and will support the petition(s) you ask it to, but there's a 10% fee on all staking profits.

If you need more details for any of this let me know what you need help with and I will attempt to make it clearer.

[dooglus]

There will be a full explanation and user guide available on the website once the client is squared-away.

I wonder if we should make an interim release with just Kef's CLAMour/CLAMspeech GUI changes merged in.

xploited's "reindex" merge is big and largely untested. I don't know how long it will take before we are confident releasing it, or how we even get to that stage. Kef's changes are tiny in comparison - but maybe they depend on the changes I made which prompted the need for merging the reindex stuff in the first place.

Also, I guess you have other stuff on your mind right now. Good luck with that!

[ReturnOfTheMAC]

You could withdraw them and stake them yourself however.

Is it a relatively simple procedure? or perhaps a step by step guide available? The whole petition thing is quite over my head I'm afraid but I would love to vote =)

I've not had the time to figure it out for myself either. Has anyone made a straight forward step by step guide somewhere for those who might need it?

If you want to have your voice heard in the CLAMour system I think there are currently two options:

1) download and sync the CLAM client, withdraw your CLAMs from poloniex to your local wallet, set your CLAMspeech to support the petition(s) you like

OR

2) make an account at Just-Dice.com, withdraw your CLAMs from poloniex to your Just-Dice deposit address, invest them in the JD bankroll and specify the petition(s) you support in the account tab.

Option 1 is better in terms of decentralising the coin. Over 73% of all the CLAMs that have ever moved at currently at Just-Dice, which clearly not good in terms of having a robust decentralised network. But syncing the blockchain is kind of a pain, taking many hours or even days. I provide a bootstrap.dat file updated which helps a lot in getting your client synced up.

The next release of the client will have direct support for CLAMour, but it isn't ready yet. The current release does let you specify your CLAMspeech. Set it to "clamour nnnnnnnn" where nnnnnnnn is the 8 digit code for the petition you support. You can specify multiple 8 digit codes; use a space to separate each pair of codes. I was maintaining a list of registered petitions at http://txti.es/clamour but haven't updated it for a while. PM me if you need something added to the list.

Option 2 will stake your coins for you and will support the petition(s) you ask it to, but there's a 10% fee on all staking profits.

If you need more details for any of this let me know what you need help with and I will attempt to make it clearer.

Thanks very much for this Dooglus! At this stage is it looking like digging will be removed? and if so, when will the changes take place?

[djhomeschool]

Thanks very much for this Dooglus! At this stage is it looking like digging will be removed? and if so, when will the changes take place?

Some point after the vote gets past 50% - which I sincerely hope does not happen, though it seems sadly inevitable.

[P-Funk]

Thanks very much for this Dooglus! At this stage is it looking like digging will be removed? and if so, when will the changes take place?

Some point after the vote gets past 50% - which I sincerely hope does not happen, though it seems sadly inevitable.

Even if the removing staking vote gains a majority of stake support, it's not going to happen.

[dooglus]

Even if the removing staking vote gains a majority of stake support, it's not going to happen.

It seems very unlikely that stakers would vote to remove staking. Or did you mean "removing digging"?

If so, why do you think that?