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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1957538 times)
dEBRUYNE
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October 22, 2014, 01:11:38 PM
 #14161

http://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/beurs/370560-1410/elf-banken-zakken-voor-stresstest-ecb

(Eleven banks fail ECB's stress test)

Unfortunately I can't find an english article yet.

EDIT: Found it: http://www.businessinsider.com/report-11-banks-are-about-to-fail-europes-biggest-ever-stress-tests-2014-10

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cypherdoc
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October 22, 2014, 01:57:31 PM
 #14162

silver may be making a premature break for it:

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October 22, 2014, 01:58:31 PM
 #14163

GDX & GDXJ have been hinting.  it feels too soon...
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October 22, 2014, 02:00:24 PM
 #14164

just over the first resistance line on the intermed term:

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October 22, 2014, 02:07:29 PM
 #14165

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/524924892077379586
cypherdoc
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October 22, 2014, 02:15:50 PM
 #14166

buying bitcoin...

time is running out.
cypherdoc
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October 22, 2014, 04:55:36 PM
 #14167

going thru the paper now but this seems to be a problematic assumption:

"the core observation is that “Bitcoin” the blockchain is conceptually independent from “bitcoin” the asset: if we had technology
to support the movement of assets between blockchains, new systems could be developed which
users could adopt by simply reusing the existing bitcoin currency"


http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf
justusranvier
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October 22, 2014, 05:30:32 PM
 #14168

going thru the paper now but this seems to be a problematic assumption:

"the core observation is that “Bitcoin” the blockchain is conceptually independent from “bitcoin” the asset: if we had technology
to support the movement of assets between blockchains, new systems could be developed which
users could adopt by simply reusing the existing bitcoin currency"


http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf
Also:

"Centralization risk" is never defined, nor is the mechanism via which it occurs is is explained.

(already know that answer to that one - it's Peter Todd's repackaging the natural monopoly fallacy)

"No safe upgrade path" is a software engineering deficiency, not an inherent feature of the problem space.

Moving transactions off the "main" blockchain deprives it of the tx fee revenue the parent blockchain requires to pay for hashing.

cypherdoc
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October 22, 2014, 06:00:11 PM
 #14169

http://www.blockstream.com/

would be interested in hearing what Gavin thinks of sidechains specifically:

https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/524975947356061697
Adrian-x
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October 22, 2014, 06:23:28 PM
 #14170

http://www.blockstream.com/

would be interested in hearing what Gavin thinks of sidechains specifically:

https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/524975947356061697

I guess given your and justusranvier points and the fact Gavin wants to lift the block size limit, he would be in the opposing sidechains camp.
having a limit in size to the blocks in the bitcoin blockchain, would legitimize the need for sidechains.

so I see a political standoff approaching, soon, where those secretly invested in sidechains seek to limit block size.   

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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October 22, 2014, 06:28:17 PM
 #14171

Peter Todd:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k01du/peter_todd_on_twitter_the_sidechains_paper_is/
Melbustus
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October 22, 2014, 06:29:34 PM
 #14172

http://www.blockstream.com/

would be interested in hearing what Gavin thinks of sidechains specifically:

https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/524975947356061697

I guess given your and justusranvier points and the fact Gavin wants to lift the block size limit, he would be in the opposing sidechains camp.
having a limit in size to the blocks in the bitcoin blockchain, would legitimize the need for sidechains.

so I see a political standoff approaching, soon, where those secretly invested in sidechains seek to limit block size.   


Gavin doesn't want to completely remove the blocksize limit; he just wants to increase it in accordance with Moore's Law (roughly). So, space will still be scarce.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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October 22, 2014, 06:41:13 PM
 #14173

http://www.blockstream.com/

would be interested in hearing what Gavin thinks of sidechains specifically:

https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/524975947356061697

I guess given your and justusranvier points and the fact Gavin wants to lift the block size limit, he would be in the opposing sidechains camp.
having a limit in size to the blocks in the bitcoin blockchain, would legitimize the need for sidechains.

so I see a political standoff approaching, soon, where those secretly invested in sidechains seek to limit block size.   


Gavin doesn't want to completely remove the blocksize limit; he just wants to increase it in accordance with Moore's Law (roughly). So, space will still be scarce.
The political standoff has been going on since at least 2012, since the altcoiners insisted that it would be too dangerous for Bitcoin to remove the block size limit, while simultaneous courting investors by claiming that Bitcoin can't scale.

The situation isn't helped in any way by people using terms of art they clearly don't understand, like "scarce."

"Scarce" is a binary term. A resource is either scarce, or non-scarce. Space in a block is scarce regardless of whether or not the size of a block is limited by production quotas.

In economics, "scarce" just means "not infinite".

Until it's possible to transmit an infinite amount of data with zero time delay without consuming any energy or using hardware, space in a Bitcoin block will be scarce, even if the average block size is 1 TB.
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October 22, 2014, 06:41:21 PM
 #14174

http://www.blockstream.com/

would be interested in hearing what Gavin thinks of sidechains specifically:

https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/524975947356061697

I guess given your and justusranvier points and the fact Gavin wants to lift the block size limit, he would be in the opposing sidechains camp.
having a limit in size to the blocks in the bitcoin blockchain, would legitimize the need for sidechains.

so I see a political standoff approaching, soon, where those secretly invested in sidechains seek to limit block size.   

The proposed transaction rate increase that Gavin seems to favor is both useless for fostering a 'one currency solution' for all economic activity because of the extremely modest increase, and ensures that Bitcoin will eventually mutate beyond recognition due to the exponential nature.  It makes little sense to me, but I like it anyway because it's predictable and would seem to align with my operations out over the course of my lifetime (as a late-40's aged dude.)

Or does it foster predictability?  One of my hypothesis is that this action is just a way to get people used to hard forks and thinking of them as no real big deal.  Most of the userbase (by body-count) at this point won't have much of a clue about what a 'fork' means anyway.  Just a software upgrade at most, and for those using many of the client solutions it won't even require that.  Being able to fork at will (or on demand of the authorities) makes it possible for pretty much anything to happen going forward.  Hell, it might even be possible to re-issue 'lost' (aka, unregistered) coins, or even bump up the 21x10^6 limit if need be.


cypherdoc
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October 22, 2014, 06:53:59 PM
 #14175

The situation isn't helped in any way by people using terms of art they clearly don't understand, like "scarce."

i hate that term with a passion. it validates Bitcoin skeptics impression that there aren't enough bitcoins.  Voorhees uses that term very loosely.  that's why you'll hear me use the descriptor "fixed supply" all the time when i describe Bitcoin.

it turns out that there is plenty of gold to go around in the world when it was more useful as a reserve money.  as a matter of fact, if you include gold derivative trading on the Comex or LBMA, the dollar value of all gold trading is greater than most currencies.

fixed supply is what is most important when talking about a store of value.
hdbuck
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October 22, 2014, 07:05:16 PM
 #14176

http://www.blockstream.com/

would be interested in hearing what Gavin thinks of sidechains specifically:

https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/524975947356061697

I guess given your and justusranvier points and the fact Gavin wants to lift the block size limit, he would be in the opposing sidechains camp.
having a limit in size to the blocks in the bitcoin blockchain, would legitimize the need for sidechains.

so I see a political standoff approaching, soon, where those secretly invested in sidechains seek to limit block size.  

The proposed transaction rate increase that Gavin seems to favor is both useless for fostering a 'one currency solution' for all economic activity because of the extremely modest increase, and ensures that Bitcoin will eventually mutate beyond recognition due to the exponential nature.  It makes little sense to me, but I like it anyway because it's predictable and would seem to align with my operations out over the course of my lifetime (as a late-40's aged dude.)

Or does it foster predictability?  One of my hypothesis is that this action is just a way to get people used to hard forks and thinking of them as no real big deal.  Most of the userbase (by body-count) at this point won't have much of a clue about what a 'fork' means anyway.  Just a software upgrade at most, and for those using many of the client solutions it won't even require that.  Being able to fork at will (or on demand of the authorities) makes it possible for pretty much anything to happen going forward.  Hell, it might even be possible to re-issue 'lost' (aka, unregistered) coins, or even bump up the 21x10^6 limit if need be.



isnt there supposed to be a consensus amongst the network before any fork to be effective?
tvbcof
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October 22, 2014, 07:15:45 PM
 #14177


isnt there supposed to be a consensus amongst the network before any fork to be effective?


Ya, but 'the network' is, unhappily, implemented as an increasingly small and centralized group of miners by my read.  'Consensus' for someone looking at a multi-million dollar mining facility being appropriated is basically 'do what the fuck the host tells you to do.'  If that means run the 'official' protocol issued by the 'official' bitcoin.org governing body, that's what most miners will likely do.

One of the practical advantages of gold is that it is fairly immune from 'good ideas' necessary to scale up.  In physical form at least.


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October 22, 2014, 07:23:21 PM
 #14178

One of the practical advantages of gold is that it is fairly immune from 'good ideas' necessary to scale up.  In physical form at least.


Gold is a great hedge for bitcoin either not panning out the way we think it will or Governments around the world with large holdings disagreeing with the U.S and bidding the price up to clear debts.

Bitcoin + Gold = freedom from monetray bs
Odalv
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October 22, 2014, 09:04:35 PM
 #14179

http://www.blockstream.com/

would be interested in hearing what Gavin thinks of sidechains specifically:

https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/524975947356061697

I like sidechians. It can solve a lot of problems.
msin
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October 22, 2014, 09:37:01 PM
 #14180

http://www.blockstream.com/

would be interested in hearing what Gavin thinks of sidechains specifically:

https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/524975947356061697

I like sidechians. It can solve a lot of problems.


Gavin should be very pro-sidechains.  It solves his need for scalability. 
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