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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1903195 times)
justusranvier
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October 19, 2014, 06:07:27 PM
 #14061

still amazing to me Buterin raised all that BTC yet doesn't even have this fundamental strategy resolved yet
First things first.

Ethereum house needed to make sure they were fully stocked with herbs.
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October 19, 2014, 06:22:10 PM
 #14062

the other thing about Bitshares is that you have to assume btsx will gain and keep any value at all.  why would it?

1.  it isn't money
2.  it has no network effect
3.  do ppl really want to trade all these overlay assets on top of the blockchain?  it could become quite costly depending on how high a price BTC attains and how high a tx fee might go.
4.  if Bitcoin's destiny is to become a world reserve currency that supports and disciplines (maximum 10x leverage) the existing fiat system, there would never be a need for Bitshares.
Micky25
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October 19, 2014, 06:23:56 PM
 #14063

is this real?



BldSwtTrs
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October 19, 2014, 06:46:00 PM
 #14064

the other thing about Bitshares is that you have to assume btsx will gain and keep any value at all.  why would it?

1.  it isn't money
2.  it has no network effect
3.  do ppl really want to trade all these overlay assets on top of the blockchain?  it could become quite costly depending on how high a price BTC attains and how high a tx fee might go.
4.  if Bitcoin's destiny is to become a world reserve currency that supports and disciplines (maximum 10x leverage) the existing fiat system, there would never be a need for Bitshares.
For 1 and 2 people could have said the same thing about Bitcoin in the early days. Rome wasn't build in a day.

3. The transaction fees on Bitshares doesn't depend on the Bitcoin one. The DPOS system scale very well, cost of transaction will not be an issue.

4. These are all problems which are not solved by Bitcoin :
- hedge and speculate without counterparty risk
- earn an (rather high) interest rate without counterparty risk
- diversify one wealth (you will be able to keep X% of you wealth in wheat with BitWheat, Y% in JPY with bitJPY, Z% in GOOG with bitGOOG, etc.) while being government-proof since the purchasing power remain in the custody of a blockchain.

And if BitAssets are useful then BTSX will have value because you need BTSX to create BitAssets.
sidhujag
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October 19, 2014, 06:54:55 PM
 #14065

the other thing about Bitshares is that you have to assume btsx will gain and keep any value at all.  why would it?

1.  it isn't money
2.  it has no network effect
3.  do ppl really want to trade all these overlay assets on top of the blockchain?  it could become quite costly depending on how high a price BTC attains and how high a tx fee might go.
4.  if Bitcoin's destiny is to become a world reserve currency that supports and disciplines (maximum 10x leverage) the existing fiat system, there would never be a need for Bitshares.
For 1 and 2 people could have said the same thing about Bitcoin. Rome wasn't build in a day.

3. The transaction fees on Bitshares doesn't depend on the Bitcoin one. The DPOS system scale very well, cost of transaction will not be an issue.

4. These are all problems which are not solved by Bitcoin :
- hedge and speculate without counterparty risk
- earn a (rather high) interest rate without counterparty
- diversify one wealth (you will be able to keep X% of you wealth in wheat with BitWheat, Y% in JPY with bitJPY, Z% in GOOG with bitGOOG, etc.) while being government-proof since the purchasing power will be within a blockchain.

And if BitAssets are useful then BTSX will have value because you need BTSX to create BitAssets.

Also they may make btsx the snapshot chain so any new dacs will get you allocations of new assets as they have respected with ags pts before. This meant that as a social consensus you raise awareness by allocating shares of new assets (a percentage of) to holders of pts and ags which were used to fund growth of bitshares. Now the thought is to merge in btsx so btsx will be useful for snapshots of new dacs.. the goose that keeps on giving.. while also providing utility through the gateway for assets and the physical world.

Doc I will answer your questions later im out right now.

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
Odalv
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October 19, 2014, 07:03:13 PM
 #14066

the other thing about Bitshares is that you have to assume btsx will gain and keep any value at all.  why would it?

1.  it isn't money
2.  it has no network effect
3.  do ppl really want to trade all these overlay assets on top of the blockchain?  it could become quite costly depending on how high a price BTC attains and how high a tx fee might go.
4.  if Bitcoin's destiny is to become a world reserve currency that supports and disciplines (maximum 10x leverage) the existing fiat system, there would never be a need for Bitshares.
For 1 and 2 people could have said the same thing about Bitcoin. Rome wasn't build in a day.

3. The transaction fees on Bitshares doesn't depend on the Bitcoin one. The DPOS system scale very well, cost of transaction will not be an issue.

4. These are all problems which are not solved by Bitcoin :
- hedge and speculate without counterparty risk
- earn a (rather high) interest rate without counterparty
- diversify one wealth (you will be able to keep X% of you wealth in wheat with BitWheat, Y% in JPY with bitJPY, Z% in GOOG with bitGOOG, etc.) while being government-proof since the purchasing power will be within a blockchain.

And if BitAssets are useful then BTSX will have value because you need BTSX to create BitAssets.

Also they may make btsx the snapshot chain so any new dacs will get you allocations of new assets as they have respected with ags pts before. This meant that as a social consensus you raise awareness by allocating shares of new assets (a percentage of) to holders of pts and ags which were used to fund growth of bitshares. Now the thought is to merge in btsx so btsx will be useful for snapshots of new dacs.. the goose that keeps on giving.. while also providing utility through the gateway for assets and the physical world.

Doc I will answer your questions later im out right now.

So if I want to buy 2,000,000 bitBTC who creates this 2M bitBTC ? (What if I want to buy 30M bitBTC)
Melbustus
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October 19, 2014, 07:03:51 PM
 #14067

is this real?






Not sure why you 'shopped that.

I just google-image searched for "gold certificate" to find the image. Here's the source: http://barrygoldberg.net/photos/coins/Series_1928_Twenty_Dollar_Gold_Certificate_Obverse1.jpg

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
manfred
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October 19, 2014, 07:11:19 PM
 #14068

is this real?






Not sure why you 'shopped that.

I just google-image searched for "gold certificate" to find the image. Here's the source: http://barrygoldberg.net/photos/coins/Series_1928_Twenty_Dollar_Gold_Certificate_Obverse1.jpg
No need to search it, just look at all the pixels and the nice round sixes stick out like a sore thumb
BldSwtTrs
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October 19, 2014, 07:18:46 PM
 #14069

the other thing about Bitshares is that you have to assume btsx will gain and keep any value at all.  why would it?

1.  it isn't money
2.  it has no network effect
3.  do ppl really want to trade all these overlay assets on top of the blockchain?  it could become quite costly depending on how high a price BTC attains and how high a tx fee might go.
4.  if Bitcoin's destiny is to become a world reserve currency that supports and disciplines (maximum 10x leverage) the existing fiat system, there would never be a need for Bitshares.
For 1 and 2 people could have said the same thing about Bitcoin. Rome wasn't build in a day.

3. The transaction fees on Bitshares doesn't depend on the Bitcoin one. The DPOS system scale very well, cost of transaction will not be an issue.

4. These are all problems which are not solved by Bitcoin :
- hedge and speculate without counterparty risk
- earn a (rather high) interest rate without counterparty
- diversify one wealth (you will be able to keep X% of you wealth in wheat with BitWheat, Y% in JPY with bitJPY, Z% in GOOG with bitGOOG, etc.) while being government-proof since the purchasing power will be within a blockchain.

And if BitAssets are useful then BTSX will have value because you need BTSX to create BitAssets.

Also they may make btsx the snapshot chain so any new dacs will get you allocations of new assets as they have respected with ags pts before. This meant that as a social consensus you raise awareness by allocating shares of new assets (a percentage of) to holders of pts and ags which were used to fund growth of bitshares. Now the thought is to merge in btsx so btsx will be useful for snapshots of new dacs.. the goose that keeps on giving.. while also providing utility through the gateway for assets and the physical world.

Doc I will answer your questions later im out right now.

So if I want to buy 2,000,000 bitBTC who creates this 2M bitBTC ? (What if I want to buy 30M bitBTC)
You will need to buy 2,000,000*389$ worth of BTSX that you will sell against bitBTC (within the GUI client) to the person who is shorting against you (assuming you find someone who is willing to take a short position on BTC as big as your long position).  Then the blockchain will take from the guy who is shorting 200%*2,000,000*389$ worth of BTSX , collaterize it, and automatically create the 2,000,000 BitBTC, and give them to you.

If you are asking if you can create more BitBTC than there are BTC in circulation, then the answer is yes. It's not suppose to be redeemable in something else than BTSX, it's just a mechanism by wich you are able to gain exposure to the price movement of the real asset. You can think of bitBTC as a CFD where the underlying is BTC, and where the unit of account is BTSX.

(And if you want to buy 30 million bitBTC the only thing that will happen is that the market cap of BTSX will become superior than the market cap of BTC.)
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October 19, 2014, 07:40:49 PM
 #14070


So if I want to buy 2,000,000 bitBTC who creates this 2M bitBTC ? (What if I want to buy 30M bitBTC)
You will need to buy 2,000,000*389$ worth of BTSX that you will sell against bitBTC (within the GUI client) to the person who is shorting against you (assuming you find someone who is willing to take a short position on BTC as big as your long position).  Then the blockchain will take from the guy who is shorting 200%*2,000,000*389$ worth of BTSX , collaterize it, and automatically create the 2,000,000 BitBTC, and give them to you.

If you are asking if you can create more BitBTC than there are BTC in circulation, then the answer is yes. It's not suppose to be redeemable in something else than BTSX, it's just a mechanism by wich you are able to gain exposure to the price movement of the real asset. You can think of bitBTC as a CFD where the underlying is BTC, and where the unit of account is BTSX.

(And if you want to buy 30 million bitBTC the only thing that will happen is that the market cap of BTSX will become superior than the market cap of BTC.)
[/quote]

a) And what happens if I'll buy bitBTC and tomorrow morning the price of BTC will be only $100
b) or I'll create some ALT and bitALT (I'll be guy buying BitALT and at the same time guy who is shorting) then I'll pump ALT 10x over night.

EDIT:
c) I'm early adopter of BTSX (big stash) and will slowly convert all BTSX -> BitBTC -> BTC
zeetubes
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October 19, 2014, 08:08:40 PM
 #14071

Nice and short presentation from Mike Maloney that shows stock prices heading upwards while volume is decreasing. 

http://hiddensecretsofmoney.com/blog/massive-market-divergence-mike-maloney
brg444
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October 19, 2014, 08:16:22 PM
 #14072

the other thing about Bitshares is that you have to assume btsx will gain and keep any value at all.  why would it?

1.  it isn't money
2.  it has no network effect
3.  do ppl really want to trade all these overlay assets on top of the blockchain?  it could become quite costly depending on how high a price BTC attains and how high a tx fee might go.
4.  if Bitcoin's destiny is to become a world reserve currency that supports and disciplines (maximum 10x leverage) the existing fiat system, there would never be a need for Bitshares.
For 1 and 2 people could have said the same thing about Bitcoin in the early days. Rome wasn't build in a day.

3. The transaction fees on Bitshares doesn't depend on the Bitcoin one. The DPOS system scale very well, cost of transaction will not be an issue.

4. These are all problems which are not solved by Bitcoin :
- hedge and speculate without counterparty risk
- earn an (rather high) interest rate without counterparty risk
- diversify one wealth (you will be able to keep X% of you wealth in wheat with BitWheat, Y% in JPY with bitJPY, Z% in GOOG with bitGOOG, etc.) while being government-proof since the purchasing power remain in the custody of a blockchain.

And if BitAssets are useful then BTSX will have value because you need BTSX to create BitAssets.

RE: 1. What is the distribution model of BTSX? How limited is the supply?

RE4. The problems are simply not YET solved by Bitcoin:

-hedge and speculate without counterparty risk : platforms can be built on top of the bitcoin blockchain to that effect. recent example : http://www.hedgy.co/ multi-sig derivatives contract.
- earn an interest rate without counterparty risk : Bitcoin's deflation is a form of interest
- diversify one wealth : see above, evolution of the technology will allow for decentralized platform built on top of the blockchain to perform these functions without counterparty risks

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
BldSwtTrs
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October 19, 2014, 08:19:47 PM
 #14073

Quote

So if I want to buy 2,000,000 bitBTC who creates this 2M bitBTC ? (What if I want to buy 30M bitBTC)
You will need to buy 2,000,000*389$ worth of BTSX that you will sell against bitBTC (within the GUI client) to the person who is shorting against you (assuming you find someone who is willing to take a short position on BTC as big as your long position).  Then the blockchain will take from the guy who is shorting 200%*2,000,000*389$ worth of BTSX , collaterize it, and automatically create the 2,000,000 BitBTC, and give them to you.

If you are asking if you can create more BitBTC than there are BTC in circulation, then the answer is yes. It's not suppose to be redeemable in something else than BTSX, it's just a mechanism by wich you are able to gain exposure to the price movement of the real asset. You can think of bitBTC as a CFD where the underlying is BTC, and where the unit of account is BTSX.

(And if you want to buy 30 million bitBTC the only thing that will happen is that the market cap of BTSX will become superior than the market cap of BTC.)

a) And what happens if I'll buy bitBTC and tomorrow morning the price of BTC will be only $100
b) or I'll create some ALT and bitALT (I'll be guy buying BitALT and at the same time guy who is shorting) then I'll pump ALT 10x over night.
a) (389-100)/389 = 0.74% decrease, so you will exit the position by getting only 0.26% of the BSTX you initially exchanged against bitBTC
b) You will win money on your long position but the gain will be offset by the losses on your short position. Eventually you will lose transaction fees and your time.
Quote
EDIT:
c) I'm early adopter of BTSX (big stash) and will slowly convert all BTSX -> BitBTC -> BTC
What's the point? You can make BTSX > BTC directly
Odalv
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October 19, 2014, 08:26:33 PM
 #14074

Quote

So if I want to buy 2,000,000 bitBTC who creates this 2M bitBTC ? (What if I want to buy 30M bitBTC)
You will need to buy 2,000,000*389$ worth of BTSX that you will sell against bitBTC (within the GUI client) to the person who is shorting against you (assuming you find someone who is willing to take a short position on BTC as big as your long position).  Then the blockchain will take from the guy who is shorting 200%*2,000,000*389$ worth of BTSX , collaterize it, and automatically create the 2,000,000 BitBTC, and give them to you.

If you are asking if you can create more BitBTC than there are BTC in circulation, then the answer is yes. It's not suppose to be redeemable in something else than BTSX, it's just a mechanism by wich you are able to gain exposure to the price movement of the real asset. You can think of bitBTC as a CFD where the underlying is BTC, and where the unit of account is BTSX.

(And if you want to buy 30 million bitBTC the only thing that will happen is that the market cap of BTSX will become superior than the market cap of BTC.)

a) And what happens if I'll buy bitBTC and tomorrow morning the price of BTC will be only $100
b) or I'll create some ALT and bitALT (I'll be guy buying BitALT and at the same time guy who is shorting) then I'll pump ALT 10x over night.
a) (389-100)/389 = 0.74% decrease, so you will exit the position by getting only 0.26% of the BSTX you initially exchanged against bitBTC
b) You will win money on your long position but the gain will be offset by the losses on your short position. Eventually you will lose transaction fees and your time.
Quote
EDIT:
c) I'm early adopter of BTSX (big stash) and will slowly convert all BTSX -> BitBTC -> BTC
What's the point? You can make BTSX > BTC directly

d) I'll start my own alt-clone of BTSX -> let's call it ATSX ... I'll create big blockchain with plenty of my transacions (it costs me nothing, using DPOS) and I'll mine trillions of ATXS with market cap at least $45M with almost ZERO cost.

EDIT:
Using botnet, I'll show you economy you have never seen.

EDIT2:
but you will not make whip from the shits
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October 19, 2014, 09:14:42 PM
 #14075

the other thing about Bitshares is that you have to assume btsx will gain and keep any value at all.  why would it?

1.  it isn't money
2.  it has no network effect
3.  do ppl really want to trade all these overlay assets on top of the blockchain?  it could become quite costly depending on how high a price BTC attains and how high a tx fee might go.
4.  if Bitcoin's destiny is to become a world reserve currency that supports and disciplines (maximum 10x leverage) the existing fiat system, there would never be a need for Bitshares.
For 1 and 2 people could have said the same thing about Bitcoin in the early days. Rome wasn't build in a day.

3. The transaction fees on Bitshares doesn't depend on the Bitcoin one. The DPOS system scale very well, cost of transaction will not be an issue.

4. These are all problems which are not solved by Bitcoin :
- hedge and speculate without counterparty risk
- earn an (rather high) interest rate without counterparty risk
- diversify one wealth (you will be able to keep X% of you wealth in wheat with BitWheat, Y% in JPY with bitJPY, Z% in GOOG with bitGOOG, etc.) while being government-proof since the purchasing power remain in the custody of a blockchain.

And if BitAssets are useful then BTSX will have value because you need BTSX to create BitAssets.

RE: 1. What is the distribution model of BTSX? How limited is the supply?

RE4. The problems are simply not YET solved by Bitcoin:

-hedge and speculate without counterparty risk : platforms can be built on top of the bitcoin blockchain to that effect. recent example : http://www.hedgy.co/ multi-sig derivatives contract.
- earn an interest rate without counterparty risk : Bitcoin's deflation is a form of interest
- diversify one wealth : see above, evolution of the technology will allow for decentralized platform built on top of the blockchain to perform these functions without counterparty risks
1. The BTSX has been distributed to AGS donators and PTS holders.
The supply may suffer dilution to finance development if shareholders agree (we are talking about of a 10 or 20% dilution, which is about the same yearly dilution rate of BTC for 2 more years).
It's not really like a crypto-money which aims to maintain a fixe supply, it's more like an corporation (distributed and autonomous) which aims to maximize the shareholders' wealth (and companies often dilute their shares to fund growth)

2. Concerning the interest rate you will be able to earn interest while having you purchasing power store in oil for example.

It's cool if these feature appears with Bitcoin and on top of it, but I don't think the world should cease to innovate and just wait stuff will appear one day on top of Bitcoin. Competition is healthy and give more options to the end user/consumer Smiley

@Odalv I don't understand what are you talking about. It's not you who decides that you will have a market cap of $45m, it's the market.
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October 19, 2014, 09:15:01 PM
 #14076

...

yep, he's got it upside down.

the concept is a total anathema to what this whole thread has been arguing in the first place.
Cypherdoc you think Bitcoin will replace gold, right? Me too.

What gold was use for? Backing stuff...

So you should think in the future BTC will be used to back stuff too. So this is not an anathema to think a blockchain token is useful to back various things.

The only anathema from you point of view is to use another digital scarce token than BTC to back something, but it appears that BTC cannot be collaterized in its own blockchain so there was a need to make another blockchain to allow the features that Bitshares makes available.


No! This is the primary misconception. Gold was useful as money because it was scarce, fungible, portable, etc, etc... It was *directly* traded because its properties very nicely provided a physical implementation of a distributed ledger.

"Backing" only came about as a convenience because as society got more advanced, gold became more of a pain to transport quickly. Backing was a good-enough solution for a while: The supposedly inviolate convertibility provided the scarcity that paper otherwise lacked, and paper provided the quick and easy portability that gold lacked. Obviously the weak link is the entity guaranteeing the backing, and history has proven that the guarantor will eventually default somehow.

Bitcoin, for the first time in human history, merges scarcity with portability in a near-perfect way (along with all the other key properties of an ideal money). Why do we keep having to repeat this point in this thread? Have you read the whole thread?

tldr: "backing" is not the ideal use for gold; it was historically a necessary inelegance/hack that bitcoin solves.


[ Note: I'm not talking about the bitshares use-case of trading company shares or some such, I'm primarily commenting on your misunderstanding of the purpose and nature of gold backing. ]

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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October 19, 2014, 09:39:15 PM
 #14077

...

yep, he's got it upside down.

the concept is a total anathema to what this whole thread has been arguing in the first place.
Cypherdoc you think Bitcoin will replace gold, right? Me too.

What gold was use for? Backing stuff...

So you should think in the future BTC will be used to back stuff too. So this is not an anathema to think a blockchain token is useful to back various things.

The only anathema from you point of view is to use another digital scarce token than BTC to back something, but it appears that BTC cannot be collaterized in its own blockchain so there was a need to make another blockchain to allow the features that Bitshares makes available.


No! This is the primary misconception. Gold was useful as money because it was scarce, fungible, portable, etc, etc... It was *directly* traded because its properties very nicely provided a physical implementation of a distributed ledger.

"Backing" only came about as a convenience because as society got more advanced, gold became more of a pain to transport quickly. Backing was a good-enough solution for a while: The supposedly inviolate convertibility provided the scarcity that paper otherwise lacked, and paper provided the quick and easy portability that gold lacked. Obviously the weak link is the entity guaranteeing the backing, and history has proven that the guarantor will eventually default somehow.

Bitcoin, for the first time in human history, merges scarcity with portability in a near-perfect way (along with all the other key properties of an ideal money). Why do we keep having to repeat this point in this thread? Have you read the whole thread?

tldr: "backing" is not the ideal use for gold; it was historically a necessary inelegance/hack that bitcoin solves.


[ Note: I'm not talking about the bitshares use-case of trading company shares or some such, I'm primarily commenting on your misunderstanding of the purpose and nature of gold backing. ]
Well, you could back a loan with a house for example. Another example, the Confederation, during the US Civil War, backed its loans on the London bond market with cotton.
 
Backing doesn't necessarily involve reducing transportation costs, it's also a way to reduce the riskiness of a liability. And gold was often used as the backing asset because it's was the most widly accepted money/ledger.

And to say backing is obsolete is the same thing than to say liabilities are obsolete. While debt exists, backing will play a role in human transactions.
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October 19, 2014, 10:33:33 PM
 #14078

All this overlay stuff is way too premature. Bitcoin has to get an order of magnitude larger before it can support any of it.  
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October 19, 2014, 11:23:35 PM
 #14079

All this overlay stuff is way too premature. Bitcoin has to get an order of magnitude larger before it can support any of it.  

Either your statements are contradictory, or you don't believe Bitcoin can get an order of magnitude larger in a matter of months.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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cypherdoc
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October 19, 2014, 11:34:05 PM
 #14080

All this overlay stuff is way too premature. Bitcoin has to get an order of magnitude larger before it can support any of it.  

Either your statements are contradictory, or you don't believe Bitcoin can get an order of magnitude larger in a matter of months.

how are they contradictory? 

eventually, i think Bitcoin will get there but it will take time.  all the alts and Bitcoin 2.0 stuff is a distraction until it does, imo.
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