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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805001 times)
cypherdoc
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October 19, 2014, 10:33:33 PM
 #14081

All this overlay stuff is way too premature. Bitcoin has to get an order of magnitude larger before it can support any of it.  
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There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. Server-assisted clients like blockchain.info rely on centralized servers to do their network verification for them. Although the server can't steal the client's bitcoins directly, it can easily execute double-spending-style attacks against the client.
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October 19, 2014, 11:23:35 PM
 #14082

All this overlay stuff is way too premature. Bitcoin has to get an order of magnitude larger before it can support any of it.  

Either your statements are contradictory, or you don't believe Bitcoin can get an order of magnitude larger in a matter of months.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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cypherdoc
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October 19, 2014, 11:34:05 PM
 #14083

All this overlay stuff is way too premature. Bitcoin has to get an order of magnitude larger before it can support any of it.  

Either your statements are contradictory, or you don't believe Bitcoin can get an order of magnitude larger in a matter of months.

how are they contradictory? 

eventually, i think Bitcoin will get there but it will take time.  all the alts and Bitcoin 2.0 stuff is a distraction until it does, imo.
thezerg
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October 20, 2014, 12:06:50 AM
 #14084

Yes.  Let's multiply the risk of btc with the risk of an overlay currency and for this tremendous risk you get the upside of....wait for it.... the non FDIC insured US dollar!!!   Awesome!  But in seriousness, these companies strategy should be to stake a claim and then reduce burn to near zero for a couple years.
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October 20, 2014, 12:30:36 AM
 #14085


Bitcoin, for the first time in human history, merges scarcity with portability in a near-perfect way (along with all the other key properties of an ideal money). Why do we keep having to repeat this point in this thread? Have you read the whole thread?


I haven't seen anyone disagree with this point.  Bitcoin is a true digital asset as is btsx.  Bitassets are IOUs.  The point you are missing is that bitshares provides the safest and most secure form of trading and storing these IOUs in a digital format.  It is a replacement for futures markets, ETFs, ect. 

You have it in your mind that we are proposing that bitgld replace bitcoin.  That couldn't be further from the truth.  However, there is and will be demand for a decentralized, trustless, digital currency redeemable for gold on a 1 to 1 basis.  Bitcoin could acheive this with side chains utilizing m of n oracles to decentralize the system.  If so, then great.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
Melbustus
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October 20, 2014, 12:56:26 AM
 #14086

...  Bitcoin is a true digital asset as is btsx.  Bitassets are IOUs.  The point you are missing is that bitshares provides the safest and most secure form of trading and storing these IOUs in a digital format.  It is a replacement for futures markets, ETFs, ect. 

I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with that part. I can't weigh in on bitshares vs the other platforms, but sure, a crypto exchange platform is useful. I think a lot of people right now are perhaps overestimating the benefits (since these are *still* centralized systems if there are IOUs involved in any way), but yes, I'd like it to be as easy to trade a stock or create an option contract as it is to make a bitcoin payment. I think the main issue there is regulatory, though, not technological. But hey - maybe Patrick Byrne's lawyers can talk some sense into the SEC.


...However, there is and will be demand for a decentralized, trustless, digital currency redeemable for gold on a 1 to 1 basis...

This is what I fundamentally take issue with. I acknowledge that there will probably be demand, but I take issue with the implication that such a product can ever somehow be "decentralized". Further, I think it's dumb that there'd be demand for such a thing in the first place, but I suppose that opinion is merely a derivative of the fact that I think monetary demand for gold post-bitcoin is mostly (note: not entirely) silly.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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October 20, 2014, 01:03:55 AM
 #14087

...  Bitcoin is a true digital asset as is btsx.  Bitassets are IOUs.  The point you are missing is that bitshares provides the safest and most secure form of trading and storing these IOUs in a digital format.  It is a replacement for futures markets, ETFs, ect.  

I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with that part. I can't weigh in on bitshares vs the other platforms, but sure, a crypto exchange platform is useful. I think a lot of people right now are perhaps overestimating the benefits (since these are *still* centralized systems if there are IOUs involved in any way), but yes, I'd like it to be as easy to trade a stock or create an option contract as it is to make a bitcoin payment. I think the main issue there is regulatory, though, not technological. But hey - maybe Patrick Byrne's lawyers can talk some sense into the SEC.


...However, there is and will be demand for a decentralized, trustless, digital currency redeemable for gold on a 1 to 1 basis...

This is what I fundamentally take issue with. I acknowledge that there will probably be demand, but I take issue with the implication that such a product can ever somehow be "decentralized". Further, I think it's dumb that there'd be demand for such a thing in the first place, but I suppose that opinion is merely a derivative of the fact that I think monetary demand for gold post-bitcoin is mostly (note: not entirely) silly.

Ofcourse its centralized because its based on physical goods... its essentially giving multiple gateways to enter the system instead of just one.. and then later on people may realize the inherent utility of using such a decentralized system will be in the share issuance system to use in place of something like a stock exchange which wont be backed by external entities (or for a time being may be but goal would be to remove backing once its fully accepted)
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October 20, 2014, 01:05:25 AM
 #14088

http://tpbit.blogspot.nl/2014/08/thoughts-on-delegated-proof-of-stake.html
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October 20, 2014, 01:16:44 AM
 #14089


Bitcoin, for the first time in human history, merges scarcity with portability in a near-perfect way (along with all the other key properties of an ideal money). Why do we keep having to repeat this point in this thread? Have you read the whole thread?


I haven't seen anyone disagree with this point.  Bitcoin is a true digital asset as is btsx.  Bitassets are IOUs.  The point you are missing is that bitshares provides the safest and most secure form of trading and storing these IOUs in a digital format.  It is a replacement for futures markets, ETFs, ect. 

You have it in your mind that we are proposing that bitgld replace bitcoin.  That couldn't be further from the truth.  However, there is and will be demand for a decentralized, trustless, digital currency redeemable for gold on a 1 to 1 basis.  Bitcoin could acheive this with side chains utilizing m of n oracles to decentralize the system.  If so, then great.

These are outlandish claims.  Perhaps you should refresh yourself on the alt coin rules.

1st rule of ALTCOINS.
Don't talk about altcoins outside the alt coin section.

2nd rule of ALTCOINS
See first rule.


FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
HeliKopterBen
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October 20, 2014, 02:35:47 AM
 #14090


Bitcoin, for the first time in human history, merges scarcity with portability in a near-perfect way (along with all the other key properties of an ideal money). Why do we keep having to repeat this point in this thread? Have you read the whole thread?


I haven't seen anyone disagree with this point.  Bitcoin is a true digital asset as is btsx.  Bitassets are IOUs.  The point you are missing is that bitshares provides the safest and most secure form of trading and storing these IOUs in a digital format.  It is a replacement for futures markets, ETFs, ect. 

You have it in your mind that we are proposing that bitgld replace bitcoin.  That couldn't be further from the truth.  However, there is and will be demand for a decentralized, trustless, digital currency redeemable for gold on a 1 to 1 basis.  Bitcoin could acheive this with side chains utilizing m of n oracles to decentralize the system.  If so, then great.

These are outlandish claims.  Perhaps you should refresh yourself on the alt coin rules.

1st rule of ALTCOINS.
Don't talk about altcoins outside the alt coin section.

2nd rule of ALTCOINS
See first rule.



You should direct you post to cypherdoc, not me.  He started it:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9248327#msg9248327

Of course I am sure you wouldn't do that.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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October 20, 2014, 06:47:01 AM
 #14091

Bitcoin giving gold the nudge
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyderabad/bitcoin-giving-gold-the-nudge-as-gold-prices-slump/article6494031.ece

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October 20, 2014, 12:34:05 PM
 #14092

Why do people hate on gold so much... oh I worked it out, because they've been persuaded to by people who like to covet the physical gold. DOH!

Let's look at the 10 yr gold chart...



Strong support forming at 1200, not bad, gold stays afloat rather well considering all the market manipulation happening:

http://www.gata.org/

Gold and Bitcoin are very similar. The notion that they are competing against each other is silly, they compliment each other and they have a common enemy, that being imaginary money (fiat) which undergoes constant debasement. Did we all forget the $16 Trillion bank bailouts of 2008? $16 Trillion printed out of thin air caused YOUR dollars to be worth less.


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October 20, 2014, 12:36:40 PM
 #14093

The notion that they are competing against each other is silly
Not silly to anyone who understand the concept of opportunity cost.
Cortex7
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October 20, 2014, 12:45:47 PM
 #14094

The notion that they are competing against each other is silly
Not silly to anyone who understand the concept of opportunity cost.

I agree Gold and  BTC serve the same purpose and yes by expending some time you may convince some usual gold purchasers to purchase bitcoin.

But I think your time investment would yield a higher return if you convinced people to turn against less sound investments, because there sure as hell are plenty of them out there. This would drive both Gold and BTC up.

I also think a fully hedged portfolio should be lined with Gold, you must admit bitcoin carries more risk than Gold. Bitcoin requires a working internet, Gold only requires a hand to hold it.

There is room for both Gold and Bitcoin in a sound portfolio.

Zangelbert Bingledack
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October 20, 2014, 01:44:01 PM
 #14095

Money as a Ledger

Excellent post, and surprising to see how Fed people are some of the best or most intelligent supporters of Bitcoin. Someone will post this to Reddit.
justusranvier
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October 20, 2014, 01:59:32 PM
 #14096

I also think a fully hedged portfolio should be lined with Gold, you must admit bitcoin carries more risk than Gold. Bitcoin requires a working internet, Gold only requires a hand to hold it.

There is room for both Gold and Bitcoin in a sound portfolio.
I few months ago, I watched a friend encounter the downsides of gold first hand.

He was moving internationally and had absolutely no way to move the amount of gold he had with him.

Long story short, he sold all his gold for bitcoins, and had absolutely no trouble taking the bitcoins with him.

As far as the prepper argument goes, I'm pretty sure that any natural disaster that takes down the internet will destroy the entire concept of a money economy in entirely, so gold will be just as useless as bitcoins.

If you want to prep for that kind of situation, the physical goods you want to hoard aren't gold.
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October 20, 2014, 02:24:48 PM
 #14097

I few months ago, I watched a friend encounter the downsides of gold first hand.

He was moving internationally and had absolutely no way to move the amount of gold he had with him.

Long story short, he sold all his gold for bitcoins, and had absolutely no trouble taking the bitcoins with him.


He could have sold before travelling and purchased after he arrived. Yes, bitcoin would be the best tool to do that.

As far as the prepper argument goes,

Lol, who mentioned "prepper", only you.

I'm pretty sure that any natural disaster that takes down the internet will destroy the entire concept of a money economy in entirely, so gold will be just as useless as bitcoins.

Really, you think that? Do you have any historical event that you can reference where such a thing has happened: unrest or disaster causing a permanent fall in golds buying power?

In the context of collapse, I agree 2 days after a collapse is not the best time to try and liquidate metal, but it will retain it's worth until stability reforms. The same cannot be said for most other non perishables of modest physical volume.

Why do you think central banks covet gold if it's so useless?

If you want to prep for that kind of situation, the physical goods you want to hoard aren't gold.

As you mention "prepping"... Risk analysis would say the best strategy is to fully hedge, anyone all in gold or all in bitcoin or bullets or beans is not optimally hedged.

Out of interest: Say you were given the task of designing a portfolio to survive 1000 years, what would it be comprised of?


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October 20, 2014, 03:27:54 PM
 #14098


Lol, who mentioned "prepper", only you.



Why shouldn't he mention it? Why do you laugh when he does?
cypherdoc
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October 20, 2014, 03:50:15 PM
 #14099

as i said, gold continues to climb.  that's ok; it's meant to suck the bulls back in before the next take down.  here's what i see:

gold is breaking up thru resistance, the lower red line, and may start sliding down the volume profile mountain to the upside.  the next area of resistance is the middle red line at which time i will start considering reintroducing shorts.  the top red line represents where gold has to get over the top of to start a new mini-bull for the intermediate term.  doubt it gets that high as i think the long term top is in at 1923 from 2011.

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October 20, 2014, 05:07:37 PM
 #14100

The notion that they are competing against each other is silly
Not silly to anyone who understand the concept of opportunity cost.

I agree Gold and  BTC serve the same purpose and yes by expending some time you may convince some usual gold purchasers to purchase bitcoin.

But I think your time investment would yield a higher return if you convinced people to turn against less sound investments, because there sure as hell are plenty of them out there. This would drive both Gold and BTC up.

I also think a fully hedged portfolio should be lined with Gold, you must admit bitcoin carries more risk than Gold. Bitcoin requires a working internet, Gold only requires a hand to hold it.

There is room for both Gold and Bitcoin in a sound portfolio.


There is *currently* room for both gold and bitcoin, sure. But if bitcoin proves to be resilient/successful, the argument for gold will be severely reduced. Bitcoin is a superset of gold. You can think of this in a couple ways; all the usual properties of money that gold is good at, bitcoin is better at. Or that gold is a physical manifestation of a decentralized ledger, and bitcoin is the far more efficient digital manifestation of the same thing.

Once bitcoin has proven longevity, use for gold will be limited to: 1) industrial, and 2) hedging an extremely thin slice of the long-tail of possible disaster outcomes. I think it's far less of a practical hedge than most gold-bugs think it is, but yes, there are still some scenarios in which you'd want it (and in which bitcoin is useless). That said, it's tough to hedge for all those tiny-probability events, so it's not really worth thinking about that much.

The question of how would you transmit wealth over 1000 years is interesting. Wences addresses that in his bitcoin2014 talk. Gold has obviously been the answer for the last 5000 years or so. I'm unconvinced it'll remain the answer. Humanity may just no longer have the ability to transmit wealth deeply through time anymore. The last 200years (last 100 especially) have been absolutely unprecedented in human history with regard to the pace of change and advancement. For the first time, it *is* rational to expect that things which have been constants for thousands of years will change in the next few decades.


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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