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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1978148 times)
cypherdoc
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November 09, 2014, 05:15:01 PM
 #16341


You seem to fundamentally miss the meaning of 'paper' in your critical comment.

As I've always argued, Bitcoin and gold are close cousins.  If a 'rewards program' offered me 'points' in the form of flecks of gold that I could keep physically in my pocket, that would be the equivalent of a properly implemented Bitcoin-backed corporate currency.

Bitcoin makes such a thing technically possible.  Of course many entities will try to pull a fast one and pretend to offer the real deal with various mechanisms to 'paper over' the lie.  This will probably be somewhat effective in certain cases for a while, but I believe that the open legacy of distributed crypto-currencies will prevail and it will be a challenge to promulgate such games.

Anyway, I'm totally in favor of corporate (and government) Bitcoin-backed solutions, and will use them for a vast majority of my transactions if possible.  The privacy feature that I'll be giving away when I do so is simply not important to me in most of my activities; the absence of counter-party risk is much more important.  Further, any Bitcoin-backed solution is going to live or die on the global confidence in Bitcoin itself.  If Bitcoin is subverted that vanishes which provides incentive to maintain the credibility of Bitcoin.



and you don't understand money.

for BTC to increase in value, ppl have to use BTC.  not a derivative of BTC, like TC. scBTC as conceptualized by the geeks has a chance to do that if it can keep away speculators from doing BTC-->scBTC-->TC.  but who realistically thinks they can stop this train?  i don't.  i believe Odalv, there's going to be billions of these schemes, some legit, but most illegit just like we have with altcoins today.  SC's doesn't prevent this process as it was advertised; instead it enhances it as it can be advertised logarithmically now as "BitcoinTruthcoin: Sidechain-enabled!".  altcoin devs are going to bring the biggest straw they can to jam thru the 2wp to suck as much value as they can out of the Bitcoin mainchain MC.

this diagram says volumes.  TC is going to bolt itself onto Bitcoin and sell itself as Bitcoin:

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November 09, 2014, 05:36:45 PM
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and you don't understand money.

for BTC to increase in value, ppl have to use BTC.  not a derivative of BTC, like TC. scBTC as conceptualized by the geeks has a chance to do that if it can keep away speculators from doing BTC-->scBTC-->TC.  but who realistically thinks they can stop this train?  i don't.  i believe Odalv, there's going to be billions of these schemes, some legit, but most illegit just like we have with altcoins today.  SC's doesn't prevent this process as it was advertised; instead it enhances it as it can be advertised logarithmically now as "Bitcoin: Sidechain-enabled!".  altcoin devs are going to bring the biggest straw they can to jam thru the 2wp to suck as much value as they can out of the Bitcoin mainchain MC.

this diagram says volumes.  TC is going to bolt itself onto Bitcoin and sell itself as Bitcoin:

 - snip - image inserted apparently for spam reasons -

Your simplistic and poorly defined assertions do zero to further anyone's understanding of 'money'.  One of my favorite permutations of a quote is "What is not worth doing right is not worth doing at all."  Besides, you kinda suck at distributing wisdom about such things and one suspects that this is because you don't have a great pool of truth from which to draw.

If 'altcoin devs' wish to try to 'suck as much value as they can out of the Bitcoin mainchain MC', all I can say is 'Bring It!'


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November 09, 2014, 05:43:45 PM
 #16343

Truthcoin, sounds great, who doesn't want truth?


cypherdoc
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November 09, 2014, 05:46:01 PM
 #16344


and you don't understand money.

for BTC to increase in value, ppl have to use BTC.  not a derivative of BTC, like TC. scBTC as conceptualized by the geeks has a chance to do that if it can keep away speculators from doing BTC-->scBTC-->TC.  but who realistically thinks they can stop this train?  i don't.  i believe Odalv, there's going to be billions of these schemes, some legit, but most illegit just like we have with altcoins today.  SC's doesn't prevent this process as it was advertised; instead it enhances it as it can be advertised logarithmically now as "Bitcoin: Sidechain-enabled!".  altcoin devs are going to bring the biggest straw they can to jam thru the 2wp to suck as much value as they can out of the Bitcoin mainchain MC.

this diagram says volumes.  TC is going to bolt itself onto Bitcoin and sell itself as Bitcoin:

 - snip - image inserted apparently for spam reasons -

bullshit



of course you fail to bring any actual arguments.  but might i remind everyone here of how badly the core devs have misunderstood altcoins.  why should we expect it to be different this time?:

Seen this yet?

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

Quote from: 'Andrew Poelstra'
Of course, “developing your own cryptosystem” is the purview of only cranks and researchers, so it was reasonably assumed that none of these “altcoins”, as they were called, could ever be plausibly presented for public use.
Boy, were we ever wrong on that one.
...
If you are, or are planning to, develop and release an “altcoin” to the public, this document reminds you that you are playing with fire. This sort of behavior was cute on sci.crypt, a community populated mainly by cryptographic experts where there was no risk that your charlatanism would be mistaken for anything legitimate, and where there was no ability to store value in your scheme anyway.
...
The Bitcoin community differs in both those respects. Your crankery is not cute. You are not a cryptographer, and yet are releasing a homebrew cryptosystem, misrepresenting your own qualifications, and encouraging others to store value in your creation. These actions are incompetent, dishonest and reprehensibly dangerous.

lol.

That's Andrew Poelstra's "A Treatise on Altcoins". He's even harsher than many of us in this thread! He's also listed as an author on the sidechains whitepaper.
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November 09, 2014, 05:48:11 PM
 #16345

Sidechains are Bitcoin's fiat.

Like Bitcoin improved on gold, sidechains improve on fiat.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 09, 2014, 05:51:28 PM
 #16346

Truthcoin, sounds great, who doesn't want truth?

Lotsa folks don't.  As they say, "The truth will set you free", so basically anyone who does not want some other group to be 'set free'.

(I didn't realize that this was a biblical quote until just now.  Whatever the case, it's a good one.)


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November 09, 2014, 05:53:51 PM
 #16347

pedantic bullshit

I am disappointed how clueless you still are about sidechains value proposition.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 09, 2014, 05:57:16 PM
 #16348


You seem to fundamentally miss the meaning of 'paper' in your critical comment.

As I've always argued, Bitcoin and gold are close cousins.  If a 'rewards program' offered me 'points' in the form of flecks of gold that I could keep physically in my pocket, that would be the equivalent of a properly implemented Bitcoin-backed corporate currency.

Bitcoin makes such a thing technically possible.  Of course many entities will try to pull a fast one and pretend to offer the real deal with various mechanisms to 'paper over' the lie.  This will probably be somewhat effective in certain cases for a while, but I believe that the open legacy of distributed crypto-currencies will prevail and it will be a challenge to promulgate such games.

Anyway, I'm totally in favor of corporate (and government) Bitcoin-backed solutions, and will use them for a vast majority of my transactions if possible.  The privacy feature that I'll be giving away when I do so is simply not important to me in most of my activities; the absence of counter-party risk is much more important.  Further, any Bitcoin-backed solution is going to live or die on the global confidence in Bitcoin itself.  If Bitcoin is subverted that vanishes which provides incentive to maintain the credibility of Bitcoin.


You do realize those reward points are inflationary (the corporations change the value from time to time) and they never become more valuable, SC reward points won't be guaranteed to have a 1:1 peg.

Still I'd use them (when I cash out points into a liquid asset like cash I pay a 20% premium and 10 years ago it was at 10%

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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November 09, 2014, 05:57:45 PM
 #16349

pedantic bullshit

I am disappointed how clueless you still are about sidechains value proposition.

do you even realize how most of recent posts have degenerated to personal attacks?  it shows your desperation.

but i'm glad you showed up shadow.  while you were away, i just scored 40pts, on my way to 55.  you can't guard me.

oh, and btw, help me generate at least another 100,000 plus views for my platform.  you're doing a great job.
Erdogan
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November 09, 2014, 05:58:55 PM
 #16350

Truthcoin, sounds great, who doesn't want truth?

Lotsa folks don't.  As they say, "The truth will set you free", so basically anyone who does not want some other group to be 'set free'.

(I didn't realize that this was a biblical quote until just now.  Whatever the case, it's a good one.)


Maybe we should include those that don't want to be free themselves, because they are afraid of the responsibility. Conclusion: Truthcoin will fail.  Sad

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November 09, 2014, 06:01:41 PM
 #16351

Sidechains are Bitcoin's fiat.

Like Bitcoin improved on gold, sidechains improve on fiat.


That I disagree with.  Sidechains are a lot more like $20 gold pieces under a gold-backed national monetary regime.  These coins may be 'legal tender' (enforceable as payment for all debts under a legal framework) but they also have very solid utility absent the legal structures which characterize their status as 'fiat'.  They can be melted.

In this parallel, destroying Bitcoin's fungibility (through, say, network infrastructure control and subsequent red-listing) is equivalent to figuring out the alchemy needed to turn lead into gold.


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November 09, 2014, 06:06:58 PM
 #16352

Truthcoin, sounds great, who doesn't want truth?

My only criticism of truth coin was that it thought NXT had a low network effect and it would stunt it's growth (I'd rather see the market do that) and some others small misrepresentations of peercoin, other than that I thought it was awesome - negating the macro economic effects on Bitcoin of course.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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November 09, 2014, 06:08:13 PM
 #16353

Sidechains are Bitcoin's fiat.

Like Bitcoin improved on gold, sidechains improve on fiat.


That I disagree with.  Sidechains are a lot more like $20 gold pieces under a gold-backed national monetary regime.  These coins may be 'legal tender' (enforceable as payment for all debts under a legal framework) but they also have very solid utility absent the legal structures which characterize their status as 'fiat'.  They can be melted.

In this parallel, destroying Bitcoin's fungibility (through, say, network infrastructure control and subsequent red-listing) is equivalent to figuring out the alchemy needed to turn lead into gold.

Maybe choice of words wasn't right but I was thinking of fiat in terms of paper currency as legal tender for gold.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
tvbcof
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November 09, 2014, 06:09:00 PM
 #16354

Truthcoin, sounds great, who doesn't want truth?

Lotsa folks don't.  As they say, "The truth will set you free", so basically anyone who does not want some other group to be 'set free'.

(I didn't realize that this was a biblical quote until just now.  Whatever the case, it's a good one.)


Maybe we should include those that don't want to be free themselves, because they are afraid of the responsibility. Conclusion: Truthcoin will fail.  Sad


My comment wasn't about 'truthcoin' which I neither know nor care about.  It was about 'truth'.  If 'truthcoin' is verifiable in implementation ('truth'), my gut sense is that it's probably at least a neutral thing and possibly a good one.  Obviously I would have a vastly better feel for it than 'gut sense' before I took an position (in either a monetary or propaganda sense.)


cypherdoc
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November 09, 2014, 06:20:41 PM
 #16355

Truthcoin, sounds great, who doesn't want truth?

Lotsa folks don't.  As they say, "The truth will set you free", so basically anyone who does not want some other group to be 'set free'.

(I didn't realize that this was a biblical quote until just now.  Whatever the case, it's a good one.)


Maybe we should include those that don't want to be free themselves, because they are afraid of the responsibility. Conclusion: Truthcoin will fail.  Sad


My comment wasn't about 'truthcoin' which I neither know nor care about.  It was about 'truth'.  If 'truthcoin' is verifiable in implementation ('truth'), my gut sense is that it's probably at least a neutral thing and possibly a good one.  Obviously I would have a vastly better feel for it than 'gut sense' before I took an position (in either a monetary or propaganda sense.)



so herein lies the problem.  

to computer scientists, the truth is either a set of 1's or 0's, ie, yes's or no's.  the longer you've lived the more you realize that the "truth" really is a matter of "opinion".  this is why brg444 says flat out, "they (Bitcoiners) won't do that" (meaning speculate).

an ordinary Bitcoiner may conclude that TC is true merely b/c it offers reward miles (or whatever) even tho they may be pegged at 2TC:1scBTC.  Truthcoin will sell it to them as "you'll wanna keep them in TC for immediate usage", may even offer a little interest, or sell the "Ethereum, Bitshares, CP all wrapped up into one!"  point being, they'll say "anything" to keep the value stored in TC.  problem being, mass ordinary Bitcoiner's of the future probably won't have the ability to distinguish, or even care about Sound Money and they will do it.

the reason we're having such a intense debate in the first place is b/c i believe the fundamental assertion of the whitepaper is flawed; that being the currency unit (BTC) can be separated from its blockchain (MC).
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November 09, 2014, 06:35:24 PM
 #16356

Sidechains are Bitcoin's fiat.

Like Bitcoin improved on gold, sidechains improve on fiat.


That I disagree with.  Sidechains are a lot more like $20 gold pieces under a gold-backed national monetary regime.  These coins may be 'legal tender' (enforceable as payment for all debts under a legal framework) but they also have very solid utility absent the legal structures which characterize their status as 'fiat'.  They can be melted.

In this parallel, destroying Bitcoin's fungibility (through, say, network infrastructure control and subsequent red-listing) is equivalent to figuring out the alchemy needed to turn lead into gold.

Maybe choice of words wasn't right but I was thinking of fiat in terms of paper currency as legal tender for gold.

Fiat is basically enacting a law to try to peg the value of the paper money to gold money. For instance "in all cases, a payment agreed upon to be in specie, is also considered paid when paid with paper". In the 1920s Germany the meme went: A mark is a mark is a mark (whether it is gold or paper). When printing proceeds, the link eventually breaks, and effectively, after that, gold is forbidden as money in trade until the fiat law is withdrawn.


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November 09, 2014, 06:42:21 PM
 #16357

Truthcoin, sounds great, who doesn't want truth?

Lotsa folks don't.  As they say, "The truth will set you free", so basically anyone who does not want some other group to be 'set free'.

(I didn't realize that this was a biblical quote until just now.  Whatever the case, it's a good one.)


Maybe we should include those that don't want to be free themselves, because they are afraid of the responsibility. Conclusion: Truthcoin will fail.  Sad


My comment wasn't about 'truthcoin' which I neither know nor care about.  It was about 'truth'.  If 'truthcoin' is verifiable in implementation ('truth'), my gut sense is that it's probably at least a neutral thing and possibly a good one.  Obviously I would have a vastly better feel for it than 'gut sense' before I took an position (in either a monetary or propaganda sense.)



I get it, it was a joke anyway.  Smiley


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November 09, 2014, 07:08:57 PM
 #16358

here's a great example of what i'm talking about:

Solvency, Lost in the Fog at the Fed

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/08/business/the-feds-ambiguous-definition-of-solvency.html?_r=0

the title could just have easily been "Truth, Lost in the Fog at the Fed".
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November 09, 2014, 07:20:11 PM
 #16359

this was one of your most sensible post and it seems you have come around to some my line of thinking. there are some things I take exception with though...

Somewhat, if value is created on a SC that is greater than that of Bitcoin the Bitcoin stays there.

It is not that the value is greater but merely different. Sidechains serve a different utility than BTC. Some might value convenience more (SC), others prefer security & liquidity (BTC).

Decentralized SC that function as a means of exchange and use merged mining will probably offer the most security miners will mine all viable ones and the difficulty will be in close equilibrium with Bitcoin. They can be thought off as secure as Bitcoin.

I'm glad you are able to come to that conclusion as well. Some it appears are to shortsighted to believe this could happen.

The users will go wherever it's most cost effective to exchange value, on the SC an increase in value is reflected in the price of Bitcoin, however that increase in value is attributed to being the biggest network with the lower fees, this increase in BTC value won't be reflected in mining revenue because it comes at the expense of sacrificing profits, leaving the network less secure.

I'm having some problem with that train of thought. First, it seems to me that the increase in value is not originated on the SC. Some will suggest that scBTC are traded on exchange but I don't find that to be convenient for users. Who would buy a premium scBTC on exchange when you can buy a regular BTC and convert it 1:1? Therefore, it is BTC's value that increases because of users finding value in the attached SCs.

Having said that, I'm not sure about the jump you're making about Bitcoin "sacrificing profits" and miners subsequently leaving the network less secure. Maybe you can expand on that?

The SC that offer additional utility at a premium or greatest arbitrage will alow miners to grow and secure the network, that hashing power is distributed over the whole network, those coins that earn the most for miners, when this type of growth happens will incentivized to mine those SC, they will drive new investment in mining and become more secure. In this case this network will be growing and Bitcoin and other SC will be getting the benefits of added security.

Agree with most of that

This growth is inflationary taking value out of Bitcoin, the market locks it in. I'd only consider the growth inflationary because that is value on top of Bitcoin in that scenario Bitcoin is dragged up but it's not the source of the growth.

As stated above, I disagree with that logic. Bitcoin is the source of the growth because Bitcoin is the underlying monetary unit. Users will buy BTC to participate in this economy and access the different SCs. Bitcoin is never "dragged up".

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 09, 2014, 07:23:08 PM
 #16360

not only are all sorts of altcoin Sidescams going to bolt themselves onto the Bitcoin MC as shown by Truthcoin but as odalv has shown even Silk Road 4.0. How do you explain that to the Feds? 

I sincerely hope this was a joke. A very bad one at that.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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