Is anyone following the Israel & Palestine Situation.

[hologram]

Hologram, this is the third or fourth thread in which we've been discussing this, and you always go back to saying the exact same thing. Please do us both a favor and research this stuff; this information is public, so there is no excuse for anyone not to know it: there has been a peace proposal which virtually everyone accepts as being fair, and which only the US and Israel refuse. Hell, even Hamas has offered more concessions than those present in that proposal when it recently formed the unity government with the PA.

You still don't explain me why this majority is legitimate to talk on this issue. History have not a good record on what the majority think it's fair... Maybe Israel is in a better place to judge ?

No <<  Si vis pacem, para bellum  >>

I trust in peace but in few years i think. maybe 2020.

[1714662351]

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[1714662351]

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[redsn0w]

Hologram, this is the third or fourth thread in which we've been discussing this, and you always go back to saying the exact same thing. Please do us both a favor and research this stuff; this information is public, so there is no excuse for anyone not to know it: there has been a peace proposal which virtually everyone accepts as being fair, and which only the US and Israel refuse. Hell, even Hamas has offered more concessions than those present in that proposal when it recently formed the unity government with the PA.

You still don't explain me why this majority is legitimate to talk on this issue. History have not a good record on what the majority think it's fair... Maybe Israel is in a better place to judge ?

No <<  Si vis pacem, para bellum  >>

I trust in peace but in few years i think. maybe 2020.

we hope that someday we will be the true PEACE !

[Alphi]

Here, I'll explain. It's easy, really: in order to oppress people and take their land you need to spend a lot of money. If you stop trying to do that, you don't need to spend that money. Did that help?

Again Hamas are good people and don't want just kill all the Jews, they will stop terrorism if Israel give back few square kilometer of land delimited by a treaty Arab don't accept cause they preferred try to kill all the Jews...

hamas wont stop being fundamentalists but if you treat Palestinians like human beings and stop stealing their land and allow them to work and trade, the power of hamas will weaken.


if you treat people with dignity they become dignified.
if you treat people like animals they become animals.

just look at IRAN everyone thought that they were a terrorist nation hell bent on destroying America and Isreal.
Now that the rhetoric has toned down they are gradually opening up... you will see in the next few years the power of the hard liners will weaken further and the power of the people will gain strength...

Iran is far from a completely free society but compared to the mess that is in Isreal/Gaza, Syria and Iraq they are the peaceful ones right now.
positive change can happen but with Gaza and Israel I cannot see that happening for a very long time. It takes many years to get over the pain of losing a mother, sibling or child,  perhaps even an entire generation.

[bryant.coleman]

I wouldn't blame Palestinians for Hamas.. any more than I would blame Jews for the Israeli government.
and i don't blame Americans for George bush. (im just glad that big mistake is over)

In a democracy you only need 51% of the voter support to form a government.. not everyone.

Hamas was elected in 2012 with more than 50% support, and the level of support has increased ever since. If the Palestinians were serious about living in peace, then they should have given a chance to the more moderate parties.

[u9y42]

Hologram, this is the third or fourth thread in which we've been discussing this, and you always go back to saying the exact same thing. Please do us both a favor and research this stuff; this information is public, so there is no excuse for anyone not to know it: there has been a peace proposal which virtually everyone accepts as being fair, and which only the US and Israel refuse. Hell, even Hamas has offered more concessions than those present in that proposal when it recently formed the unity government with the PA.

You still don't explain me why this majority is legitimate to talk on this issue. History have not a good record on what the majority think it's fair... Maybe Israel is in a better place to judge ?

Actually, I've explained it on the previous three or four threads, though you've obviously ignored it every time. First, because Israel is violating international law by occupying territory that it shouldn't, creating settlements in that land, and by the way it treats the Palestinian population. Secondly, why "Israel is in a better place to judge"? Shouldn't it be "Palestine and Israel are in a better place to judge"? I guess this represents part of the problem: if you take into account only what Israel wants and ignore what the other party wants, the way to peace isn't easy, because you're going to have to oppress the other party.

[u9y42]

I wouldn't blame Palestinians for Hamas.. any more than I would blame Jews for the Israeli government.
and i don't blame Americans for George bush. (im just glad that big mistake is over)

In a democracy you only need 51% of the voter support to form a government.. not everyone.

Hamas was elected in 2012 with more than 50% support, and the level of support has increased ever since. If the Palestinians were serious about living in peace, then they should have given a chance to the more moderate parties.

As I've just said, Hamas has recently agreed to all the terms the Quartet had imposed on them when they joined with the PA. It's hard to demand more of them; and in fact, when they agreed, Israel canceled the peace negotiations, which is telling in my view.

[Alphi]

I wouldn't blame Palestinians for Hamas.. any more than I would blame Jews for the Israeli government.
and i don't blame Americans for George bush. (im just glad that big mistake is over)

In a democracy you only need 51% of the voter support to form a government.. not everyone.

Hamas was elected in 2012 with more than 50% support, and the level of support has increased ever since. If the Palestinians were serious about living in peace, then they should have given a chance to the more moderate parties.

please tell me you read the part where Gaza governed by Hamas only makes up less than half of Palestine.

as I already said.. its very easy to vote extremists into power.. its very hard to vote them out.. they are the ones hold the guns, controlling the services like power, and water...

[hologram]

1.First, because Israel is violating international law by occupying territory that it shouldn't, creating settlements in that land, and by the way it treats the Palestinian population.

2.Secondly, why "Israel is in a better place to judge"? Shouldn't it be "Palestine and Israel are in a better place to judge"? I guess this represents part of the problem:

3.if you take into account only what Israel wants and ignore what the other party wants, the way to peace isn't easy, because you're going to have to oppress the other party.

Here we go again...

1.What is the limit of their land ?

2.Sure, Palestine and Israel should negotiate, but i still don't see the legitimacy of UN, seem the beginning of a world government and i don't like this stuff.

3.Not only, but as i said there is better chance to obtain peace if Palestinian have reasonable claim. It's a problem of moderation.

[u9y42]

1.First, because Israel is violating international law by occupying territory that it shouldn't, creating settlements in that land, and by the way it treats the Palestinian population.

2.Secondly, why "Israel is in a better place to judge"? Shouldn't it be "Palestine and Israel are in a better place to judge"? I guess this represents part of the problem:

3.if you take into account only what Israel wants and ignore what the other party wants, the way to peace isn't easy, because you're going to have to oppress the other party.

Here we go again...

1.What is the limit of their land ?

2.Sure, Palestine and Israel should negotiate, but i still don't see the legitimacy of UN, seem the beginning of a world government and i don't like this stuff.

3.Not only, but as i said their is better chance to obtain peace if Palestinian have reasonable claim. It's a problem of moderation.

1. You can start with where the Palestinian population is being expelled from their homes, to give place to Israeli settlements. As soon as settlements stop, the blockade ends and peace negotiations resume, they can decide on that.

2. Come on... conspiracy theories now?

3. The Palestinians want peace, and to be treated like humans, not animals. It's seems a reasonable claim to me.

You've mostly asked all this before, and were answered. Did you actually read any of it?

[hologram]

1. You can start with, where the Palestinian population is being expelled from their homes, to give place to Israeli settlements. As soon as settlements stop, and peace negotiations resume, they can decide on that.

2. Come on... conspiracy theories now?

3. The Palestinians want peace, and to be treated like humans, not animals. It's seems a reasonable claim to me.

4.You've mostly asked all this before, and were answered. Did you actually read any of it?

1.I want something precise, cause you know, for few square kilometer Arabs bomb you for one century...

2.Not, i take care of what government do and the power they bring to them, UN is bad cause it allow government to interfere in other government affair without taking risk and responsibility for their act.

3.Yes, they can have if they stop terrorism and accept few concession.

4.yes

[Alphi]

Here we go again...

1.What is the limit of their land ?

2.Sure, Palestine and Israel should negotiate, but i still don't see the legitimacy of UN, seem the beginning of a world government and i don't like this stuff.

3.Not only, but as i said their is better chance to obtain peace if Palestinian have reasonable claim. It's a problem of moderation.

1) the borders are well defined.. everyone has a map. the settlers know what they are doing when they settle on land which is not part of isreal proper.

2) the UN gave Isreal legitimacy... without it Isreal is nothing more than a foreign invasion and the entire territory of Isreal is occupied land not just Gaza and the West bank. As Isreal relies on the UN to give them legitimacy and recognition as a nation so they should also respect the UN and ALL agreements which they themselves signed. So too should the Palestinians.

3) I agree.. the Palestinians need to accept that the Isrealis are not just going to go away... the Isrealis need to accept that the Palestinains are not going to just go away either.

somebody needs to smack their heads together.
almost every country on earth has colonizers displacing the native people. almost every country on earth has the problem of how to reconcile the two groups.. its not easy but it has to be done for there to be peace.

a binding treaty needs to be signed.

[hologram]

1) the borders are well defined.. everyone has a map. the settlers know what they are doing when they settle on land which is not part of isreal proper.

2) the UN gave Isreal legitimacy... without it Isreal is nothing more than a foreign invasion and the entire territory of Isreal is occupied land not just Gaza and the West bank. As Isreal relies on the UN to give them legitimacy and recognition as a nation they should also respect the UN and ALL agreements which they themselves signed. So too should the Palestinians.

3) I agree.. the Palestinians need to accept that the Isrealis are not just going to go away... the Isrealis need to accept that the Palestinains are not going to just go away either.

1.So you speak about the 1967 border ?

2.Are you serious ? Without UN Israel would exist and it would be a deal between UK and Jordan for land issues...

3.Sure

[redsn0w]

1) the borders are well defined.. everyone has a map. the settlers know what they are doing when they settle on land which is not part of isreal proper.

2) the UN gave Isreal legitimacy... without it Isreal is nothing more than a foreign invasion and the entire territory of Isreal is occupied land not just Gaza and the West bank. As Isreal relies on the UN to give them legitimacy and recognition as a nation they should also respect the UN and ALL agreements which they themselves signed. So too should the Palestinians.

3) I agree.. the Palestinians need to accept that the Isrealis are not just going to go away... the Isrealis need to accept that the Palestinains are not going to just go away either.

1.So you speak about the 1967 border ?

2.Are you serious ? Without UN Israel would exist and it would be a deal between UK and Jordan for land issues...

3.Sure

But why the two peoples do not live together in peace?

[Alphi]

1) the borders are well defined.. everyone has a map. the settlers know what they are doing when they settle on land which is not part of isreal proper.

2) the UN gave Isreal legitimacy... without it Isreal is nothing more than a foreign invasion and the entire territory of Isreal is occupied land not just Gaza and the West bank. As Isreal relies on the UN to give them legitimacy and recognition as a nation they should also respect the UN and ALL agreements which they themselves signed. So too should the Palestinians.

3) I agree.. the Palestinians need to accept that the Isrealis are not just going to go away... the Isrealis need to accept that the Palestinains are not going to just go away either.

1.So you speak about the 1967 border ?

2.Are you serious ? Without UN Israel would exist and it would be a deal between UK and Jordan for land issues...

3.Sure

1. they can start by giving the Palestinians real authority over the west bank and stop fanatical settlers from moving in and taking land.
they can argue about east Jerusalem later. Right now Isreali settlers in the west bank (Palestinian territory) can do whatever they like short of killing Palestinians and the Palestinian police can do nothing to stop them, they cannot even arrest them. The settlers should either follow the laws of Palestine or be deported.. just like Palestinians in Isreal have to obey Isreali laws.
Right now there is not two states.. only two classes in one state. this is apartheid.


2. yes I am serious..

On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favor of a Partition Plan that created the State of Israel. The British reliquished their mandate over Palestine in 1948.
 

3. indeed...

[hologram]

1. they can start by giving the Palestinians real authority over the west bank and stop fanatical settlers from moving in and taking land.
they can argue about east Jerusalem later. Right now Isreali settlers in the west bank (Palestinian territory) can do whatever they like short of killing Palestinians and the Palestinian police can do nothing to stop them, they cannot even arrest them. The settlers should either follow the laws of Palestine or be deported.. just like Palestinians in Isreal have to obey Isreali laws.
Right now there is not two states.. only two classes in one state. this is apartheid.


2. yes I am serious..

On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favor of a Partition Plan that created the State of Israel. The British reliquished their mandate over Palestine in 1948.

1.Do you speak about Palestinian in Israel or Arab Israeli ?

2.wasn't my point.

[Alphi]

1.Do you speak about Palestinian in Israel or Arab Israeli ?

I am talking about Palestinians who live in Isreal..

anyone who lives in Isreal has to obey Isreali law...
anyone who lives in westbank should obey Palestinian law.

its about the rule of law.
right now they don't have rule of law.. Settlers in West bank can do whatever they want.

well that how it was.. has that changed recently?

[hologram]

Is there something to apply a rule of law system in west bank (clear law and police and judge not too corrupt) ?

[Alphi]

Is there something to apply a rule of law system in west bank (clear law and police and judge not too corrupt) ?

don't put the horse before the cart my friend...
they have police and laws but obviously they don't have the entire legal infrastructure because they don't even have a state yet.

you need a state and full autonomy before you can build that kind of infrastructure..

ive just been doing some reading and it seems like the Palestinian authority has come quite far in the last few years.

it would be a tragedy do have that all destroyed because of this recent conflict in Gaza.

[hologram]

1.they have police and laws but obviously they don't have the entire legal infrastructure because they don't even have a state yet.
you need a state and full autonomy before you can build that kind of infrastructure..

2.ive just been doing some reading and it seems like the Palestinian authority has come quite far in the last few years.

3.it would be a tragedy do have that all destroyed because of this recent conflict in Gaza.

1.They need a state before build it but for the moment if they don't have it they can't use it. Rule of law is complex institution. Militia judging people in the street and then apply some kind of physical sanction is not a rule of law system.

2.Yes but PA need to have the control and no terrorist militia against them.

3.Sure

Building state institution is something complex. I think the only way to have a working Palestinian state is to reflect how to implement Regalian state service. If the UN say Palestinian state exist it don't mean on the ground it would not be just anarchy like now, and there would be a terrible thing.

[Alphi]

the truth about the isreali occupation written by an isreali scholar.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/18/cursed-victory-history-israel-occupied-territories-ahron-bregman-review

this is just the summary of his book..

is this hamas propaganda? no
is this isreali propaganda? no

just the well researched writings of a man who knows what he is talking about.

should be interesting reading.


and heres the entire book

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ew1PAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Cursed+Victory:+A+History+of+Israel+and+the+Occupied+Territories&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oevLU7-RJMb28QX924GADw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Cursed%20Victory%3A%20A%20History%20of%20Israel%20and%20the%20Occupied%20Territories&f=false