[XMR] Monero Speculation

[DaveyJones]

We voted not to include you in the vote

Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?

The whole thing is called consensus, everyone who doesn't or didnt agree now has XMO/XMC/XM-C, and as the whole eco-system decided that the fork will get consensus ( pools, exchanges all call the Non-Asic Chain XMR )

I guess the poll was a once in a lifetime thing for monero as the community was still small and there also were no other channels like there is nowadays.

There were debates all over reddit for weeks about it ( guess its reddit because there is the biggest part of the community now )

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[Febo]

Who are the genius who decided to fork the POW algo?

The community

Why I wasn't consulted?
How do you get to be a member of "the community"?
Where the vote was hosted?

There was a lot of talks about mining in last years. Github, reddit this forum. When you have ideas you should just tell them.  Github is main place for you.

So basically it's the monero devs who decided that Bitmain was evil and therefore that Monero should undergo a change of its security backbone?

Be the developer. Be active on any questions that interest you and reply with your better suggestion.  That is only way. No one will hear you if you will not say. 

[garytheasshole]

We voted not to include you in the vote

Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?

The whole thing is called consensus, everyone who doesn't or didnt agree now has XMO/XMC/XM-C, and as the whole eco-system decided that the fork will get consensus ( pools, exchanges all call the Non-Asic Chain XMR )

I guess the poll was a once in a lifetime thing for monero as the community was still small and there also were no other channels like there is nowadays.

There were debates all over reddit for weeks about it ( guess its reddit because there is the biggest part of the community now )

Thank you for the serious answer.

Due to inertie effect, whatever is merged in the Github repo of a protocol manage to gather consensus. So basically it's the monero devs who decided that Bitmain was evil and therefore that Monero should undergo a change of its security backbone? Who are the devs who were pro fork and the one who were against? Were there any demonstration of the dangerousness of the old POW or of the safety of a change?

Can we except other important decisions to be taken the same way in the future?

https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/blob/master/whitepaper/whitepaper_annotated.pdf

Scroll down to 2.2 The Proof-of-Work function
And yes, hopefully there will be default decisions like this in the future, it shouldn't even be up for debate if we should embrace asics or not, I see this as a patch rather than a game changer.

[DaveyJones]

We voted not to include you in the vote

Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?

The whole thing is called consensus, everyone who doesn't or didnt agree now has XMO/XMC/XM-C, and as the whole eco-system decided that the fork will get consensus ( pools, exchanges all call the Non-Asic Chain XMR )

I guess the poll was a once in a lifetime thing for monero as the community was still small and there also were no other channels like there is nowadays.

There were debates all over reddit for weeks about it ( guess its reddit because there is the biggest part of the community now )

Thank you for the serious answer.

Due to inertie effect, whatever is merged in the Github repo of a protocol manage to gather consensus. So basically it's the monero devs who decided that Bitmain was evil and therefore that Monero should undergo a change of its security backbone? Who are the devs who were pro fork and the one who were against? Were there any demonstration of the dangerousness of the old POW or of the safety of a change?

Can we except other important decisions to be taken the same way in the future?

Thats not quite how it works, devs code thats right, but there is always back and forth with the community through different channels and plenty of people talking to each other, so if you wanted you could join this discussions too, in the github issues for example.

In case of the PoW Fork it also was a whole different scenario if you read the monero whitepaper - the whitepaper states "that monero should have an egalitarian proof of work" so it's kinda the social contract that should be "obeyed". So CPU and GPU's are egalitarian as everyone who owns a computer has one, meanwhile not everyone owns ASIC's and they also have rather small batches that is far from commodisation and especially players like Bitmain showed in the past that they mine their tech first and dominate PoWs before giving it to the public...

tl;dr PoW change was an obvious/essential move as "egalitarian" is part of the social contract

[Febo]

Overall the change in mining algorithm was a really good call.  I actually remember most talks before was about bot mining.  Now is obvious why. Asic miners owners were pushing that agenda that bot miners are controlling most of  hash power. I pretty much believed them.

[infofront]

I'm not a big fan of forking away from ASICs, but I think it's the only option while Bitmain has a monopoly.

If Jihan Wu hadn't proven himself to be a bad actor, things might be different.

[guesswho1234]

anyone of you guys think we hit the bottom regarding btc value of xmr?

[florida.haunted]

I'm not a big fan of forking away from ASICs, but I think it's the only option while Bitmain has a monopoly.

If Jihan Wu hadn't proven himself to be a bad actor, things might be different.

"egalitarian" is a fundamental philosophical principal. Monero must be ASIC-resistant forever. I have to ask devs - whether it is possible to include timestamp dependencies directly into PoW algorithm? Or in general, could PoW entangle some bits from the outer world, that ASIC to stay impossible without regular forks (typically twice a year) to make ASIC impossible?

[florida.haunted]

anyone of you guys think we hit the bottom regarding btc value of xmr?

If one answers why altcoins (I've checked XMR,ZEC,Dash) fall against BTC last days, while BTC itself in flat or Bart's head?

[adaseb]

I went long on XMR  because I think that the weekly supppet which was tested multiples times will end up holding. The suppprt is in the $150 area or so. This is basically the exact same setup as Litecoin but in the $110 range.

I believe that we will at least retest the descending wedge and I will take partial profits there and hold incase it ends up breaking when FOMO is activated and it ends up going to like $500 later in the year.

[cAPSLOCK]

I'm not a big fan of forking away from ASICs, but I think it's the only option while Bitmain has a monopoly.

If Jihan Wu hadn't proven himself to be a bad actor, things might be different.

But Zooko has looked into Jihan's heart and seen the light and love!

https://forum.z.cash/t/so-i-had-a-videochat-with-jihan-wu/29379

I said that a large fraction — maybe 60% or so — of the XMR hashrate had disappeared from XMR and switched to XMO, and asked if that was Bitmain’s mining operation. He immediately replied “No, it was not us. We released the Monero miner right after the samples.”

For what it is worth, I didn’t get the feeling that he was lying about this. I felt like he was telling the truth. I asked him again if they had been doing any Monero mining with ASICs, because it really seemed like someone must have been, and he said something like that he saw the theory that there was a large-scale stealth ASIC miner, and that he hadn’t had time to look into it to tell if it was real or just a hypothesis, but that in any case it wasn’t them. Again, he sounded sincere to me.

[cAPSLOCK]

I'm not a big fan of forking away from ASICs, but I think it's the only option while Bitmain has a monopoly.

If Jihan Wu hadn't proven himself to be a bad actor, things might be different.

"egalitarian" is a fundamental philosophical principal. Monero must be ASIC-resistant forever. I have to ask devs - whether it is possible to include timestamp dependencies directly into PoW algorithm? Or in general, could PoW entangle some bits from the outer world, that ASIC to stay impossible without regular forks (typically twice a year) to make ASIC impossible?

Egalitarian and ASICs are not diametrically opposed forever.  Once ASICs become commoditized like GPUs there would be much less need to defend against the centralization ASICs can currently cause.

A big player like Samsung, or others would be useful here.

Of course theat could also mean changint eh hash to something more "standard".

[sergey_vass]

I think monero will have a better run this year than last year and i hope my investment on it will be worthy for my money. I believe in monero because of its usage and popularity and i speculate that it will reach 500$ this year.

[Globb0]

So what are people implying here?

That's ASIC owners were also the coin pumpers and manipulators?

[Febo]

So what are people implying here?

That's ASIC owners were also the coin pumpers and manipulators?

No, more like that if they can mine 10 times more then any other miner fro same electricity cost they will push out all other miners. They coin lose support. And ofcourse is super vulnerable to 51% attacks.

[mambamanagement]

I think monero will have a better run this year than last year and i hope my investment on it will be worthy for my money. I believe in monero because of its usage and popularity and i speculate that it will reach 500$ this year.

if it only reaches 500 wouldn’t that mean it didn’t have as good a run?

[Febo]

I think monero will have a better run this year than last year and i hope my investment on it will be worthy for my money. I believe in monero because of its usage and popularity and i speculate that it will reach 500$ this year.

if it only reaches 500 wouldn’t that mean it didn’t have as good a run?

How much is Monero now?   What % increase would it have then to reach $500.  What do you think? Is that a good run or not?  Probably it depends of person. LOL   Ask your neighbours what do they think.

[phishead]

I think monero will have a better run this year than last year and i hope my investment on it will be worthy for my money. I believe in monero because of its usage and popularity and i speculate that it will reach 500$ this year.

if it only reaches 500 wouldn’t that mean it didn’t have as good a run?

How much is Monero now?   What % increase would it have then to reach $500.  What do you think? Is that a good run or not?  Probably it depends of person. LOL   Ask your neighbours what do they think.

Considering most normal people think in the context of stock markets and could relate to a "good run" being 10-15% for the year in their 401(k)'s; people would be absolutely dumbfounded why you would even ask if a +200% ROI in a year is a "good run".  Cryptocurrency markets hardly make sense to me still to this day.

[cAPSLOCK]

So what are people implying here?

That's ASIC owners were also the coin pumpers and manipulators?

Some points:

- Hashrate was DOMINATED by "unknown" players last year and up to the HF.
- This was often attributed to botnets.
- 2 manufacturers produced CN ASICS around the time of this increase
- The moment the hashing alg was changed >60% hashrate disappeared.
- Three versions of the old chain were created (XMC, XMO, XMsomethingelse)
- Much of the displaced hashrate seemed to go to these chains.

It has been suggested that tBitmain created the ASICS, burned them in for a while (what?  6 months? lol)  And thten put them on the market.

It has been suggested that Bitmain (or some other ASIC manufacturer) created one or more of the "classic" chains to continue to be mined by ASICS.

It seems Zooko met with Jihan Wu and determined by feels that Jihan had nothing to do with the extra hashrate or the forks.

[btcdimcash]

It is better let the price find a realistic point from where the community is able to absorb the coins.
Personally I am not quit supporting Monero but I am not a buyer at the moment neither since I do not see it realistic to be able to absorb the emitted the coins