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Author Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It  (Read 3914547 times)
velacreations
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August 17, 2013, 11:45:46 PM
 #11181

Those are co-location "deals". Here, you'd be leasing out the whole damn datacenter. You're making the rules at that point.

it's still going to cost a few million $$$ per month just for the datacenter, plus power use.  You can make the rules all you want, but they make the bill.

From your pdf:
Quote
High power density – 175+ watts per square foot
what does that translate to in hashrate per square foot?

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velacreations
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August 17, 2013, 11:50:16 PM
 #11182

You're right about 2-3 months, but I don't see that as an issue either. VCs will invest in startups and often wait 5 years or more before they see their first return.

yeah, I don't disagree that on a longer time scale, it MIGHT make financial sense, but I think a lot of the "competition" to AM are ignoring some of these issues.  It's not as easy as just getting your chips, folks, and truth be told, getting your Avalon chips is probably the easiest part of the whole deal.

In the meantime, for those 2-3 months, AM already has a datacenter up and running, AM is producing and releasing more hardware, and AM is making money.

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August 17, 2013, 11:50:44 PM
 #11183

Those are co-location "deals". Here, you'd be leasing out the whole damn datacenter. You're making the rules at that point.

it's still going to cost a few million $$$ per month just for the datacenter, plus power use.  You can make the rules all you want, but they make the bill.

You're mad. A few million per month? Where did you get that number? The WHOLE datacenter I linked (and you could probably sublease quite a lot of it) cost $35M to construct. If we assume a typical 10-year payback period for leasing, then that comes out to 120 months, or $3500000/120 ~ $300k/mo.

Not to mention that the state fucked up big time with this project and is willing to lease below market.

http://www.zdnet.com/washington-states-datacenter-fiasco-its-time-to-pay-the-bill-7000011382/

You're right about 2-3 months, but I don't see that as an issue either. VCs will invest in startups and often wait 5 years or more before they see their first return.

In the meantime, for those 2-3 months, AM already has a datacenter up and running, AM is producing and releasing more hardware, and AM is making money.

Yes, indeed. BUT it is trading at a price that assumes AM will continue to dominate the market for years.

This is why I am so bearish, and why I have been actively buying puts.

Quote
Quote
High power density – 175+ watts per square foot
what does that translate to in hashrate per square foot?

For the existing Avalon chips, about 30 GH/s per square foot.

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August 17, 2013, 11:57:34 PM
 #11184

You're mad. A few million per month? Where did you get that number?

your pdf said $125/kW per month:
Quote
$125.00 per kW per month, all-in except power consumption

Based on the math I quoted from, 10% of the network would require 900 kW, so $1,125,000 per month.  Of course, that's not renting the whole space, and than only gets you 10% for a limited time (a week?).  If you want to keep that 10% rate for the whole month, you'll likely need double that, so $2M a month.

maybe I'm quoting the wrong thing, or the pdf had a mistake, but I assumed it was right.

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August 18, 2013, 12:01:22 AM
 #11185

You're mad. A few million per month? Where did you get that number?

your pdf said $125/kW per month:
Quote
$125.00 per kW per month, all-in except power consumption

Based on the math I quoted from, 10% of the network would require 900 kW, so $1,125,000 per month.  Of course, that's not renting the whole space, and than only gets you 10% for a limited time (a week?).  If you want to keep that 10% rate for the whole month, you'll likely need double that, so $2M a month.

maybe I'm quoting the wrong thing, or the pdf had a mistake, but I assumed it was right.

Oh, right - that's electricity cost, not rent. Understand that Friedcat is on the hook for that too.

That's the biggest issue with that datacenter. It's in Washington, but the electricity isn't steeply discounted. If you want to see why Friedcat is (in my opinion) in serious trouble, look at the link in this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.msg2954417#msg2954417

Like I've said before, I'm not spending the time to find the best datacenter. I'm sure there are even better deals.

Edit: Here's the PDF from the North Central Washington datacenter. http://datacenters.sabey.com/docs/properties/profiles/intergate_quincy_profile.pdf

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August 18, 2013, 12:04:58 AM
 #11186

Hi all, I've been trying to transfer my shares to ASICMINER-PT on btct.co and have sent a request to friedcat and burnside several times over the last 2 weeks and have received no reply.

Have I missed a message about some new process for transferring shares?

Any help much appreciated.
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August 18, 2013, 12:07:50 AM
 #11187

Oh, right - that's electricity cost, not rent. Understand that Friedcat is on the hook for that too.
What makes you say that?  The line says "all-in except power consumption".  I would assume that to be a rental cost. Electricity cost is typically depicted in $/kWh

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August 18, 2013, 12:13:37 AM
 #11188

Oh, right - that's electricity cost, not rent. Understand that Friedcat is on the hook for that too.
What makes you say that?  The line says "all-in except power consumption".  I would assume that to be a rental cost. Electricity cost is typically depicted in $/kWh


I see what you're saying. I think you're right, and I didn't read that PDF correctly. That would make this particular data center a poor prospect, since the ASICs are very heavy on power consumption. It's possible you could negotiate the price down, though, since you'd be using less floor space than they'd expect per square foot.

Still, the Integrate.Quincy datacenter is another example of what I'm talking about. That's a 52MW facility, easily big enough to accommodate a project like this, and they're leasing now. Power is $0.0225/kW-h.

The particular datacenter isn't the point here - just that this can be done, and done cheaper than AM has managed. Believe it or not, China (particularly Guangdong) is the wrong location. Big business mining will end up in Washington.

If I had the money, I would seriously consider doing this project myself. Shit, these IPOs have been so easy to pull off, maybe I can...

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August 18, 2013, 12:14:08 AM
 #11189

Hi all, I've been trying to transfer my shares to ASICMINER-PT on btct.co and have sent a request to friedcat and burnside several times over the last 2 weeks and have received no reply.

Have I missed a message about some new process for transferring shares?

Any help much appreciated.

planning on doing that as well. Any pointers guys?

Will take me a while to climb up again, But where is a will, there is a way...
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August 18, 2013, 12:33:26 AM
 #11190

I see what you're saying. I think you're right, and I didn't read that PDF correctly. That would make this particular data center a poor prospect, since the ASICs are very heavy on power consumption. It's possible you could negotiate the price down, though, since you'd be using less floor space than they'd expect per square foot.
possibly, but I think this illustrates the point that it is neither cheap nor as easy as first expected to launch something of the size and power consumption that we are talking about.

None of the IPOs I have seen are taking this into serious consideration, or at least, they are not voicing how they are going to meet these obstacles.  Everyone seems to be focused on getting chips/hardware, which is a major obstacle in and of itself, but meanwhile, they are ignoring the real feat of housing/powering that hardware for a reasonable cost. 

These kinds of obstacles are not fixed overnight.  Even if you have the data center lined up, have your hardware in hand, everything ready to go, getting 100 TH/s online is going to take weeks, at best.

Quote
Still, the Integrate.Quincy datacenter is another example of what I'm talking about. That's a 52MW facility, easily big enough to accommodate a project like this, and they're leasing now. Power is $0.0225/kW-h.
yeah, that's a nice datacenter, but what does it cost?  As we saw above, the power cost is miniscule, renting the actual datacenter is several orders of magnitude more expensive.  I think you might be underestimating what top of the line datacenters like this lease for.  I do agree that there are cheaper datacenters out there.

In any case, the rent is going to be a much larger cost than power, and may even make it cost prohibitive to rent a datacenter like that.

Of course, all of this assumes no additional cost for govt permits, licensing, bribing, etc in the US.  I imagine administrative costs like that are going to be a lot more than in countries like China.

Quote
The particular datacenter isn't the point here - just that this can be done, and done cheaper than AM has managed.
that MAY be true, but it doesn't look like it will happen in 2013.  

The reality is that to get something of this magnitude up and running is going to take months (at best).  We are going to see a lot of attempts fail to accomplish this goal, that's the nature of the beast.

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August 18, 2013, 12:36:24 AM
 #11191

Hi all, I've been trying to transfer my shares to ASICMINER-PT on btct.co and have sent a request to friedcat and burnside several times over the last 2 weeks and have received no reply.

Have I missed a message about some new process for transferring shares?

Any help much appreciated.

I would suggest that you send another message to burnside, they probably overlooked your message.  I don't know for sure, but he may be on one of the IRC channels at certain times.  I have always just PMed him from this forum, but he typically responded in a day or 2.

As far as I know, the rules are the same as always, just message them both, and FC does the transfer manually.  Maybe contact TAT, he might know if something has changed.

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August 18, 2013, 12:39:59 AM
 #11192

The reality is that to get something of this magnitude up and running is going to take months (at best).  We are going to see a lot of attempts fail to accomplish this goal, that's the nature of the beast.

This is all absolutely true. However:

1) It's entirely possible there are privately-funded projects that have been working on all of this for several months already, meaning they may be coming online shortly. In fact, I think it is more likely than unlikely that this is the case.

2) Even if new projects do not come online until early next year (almost certainly making use of new Gen 2 chips like KnC/Bitfury/Cointerra rather than the old, inefficient BFL/Avalon chips), the AM stock price assumes that Friedcat will manage to maintain current dividends for many years. We're talking about months until those dividends might take a serious beating.

And regardless of how it happens, mining costs are going to become closely tied to the cost of electricity in the near future. That means Friedcat is in trouble, as his electricity is not particularly cheap (being several times more expensive than Siberia and Washington).

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August 18, 2013, 12:49:57 AM
 #11193

The reality is that to get something of this magnitude up and running is going to take months (at best).  We are going to see a lot of attempts fail to accomplish this goal, that's the nature of the beast.

This is all absolutely true. However:

1) It's entirely possible there are privately-funded projects that have been working on all of this for several months now, meaning they will be coming online shortly. In fact, I think it is more likely than unlikely that this is the case.

2) Even if new projects do not come online until early next year, AM stock is assuming it will manage to maintain its current dividends for many years. We're talking about months until those dividends take a serious beating.

1 is possible, but I doubt it is probable.  We would have heard some sort of news/info from chip manufacturers/VCs or other partners by now.  But, what we are both saying is that the BTC funded IPOs that currently exist probably don't have a chance in hell.

2. There is a great possibility that dividends increase over the next months, especially if AM continues to hold its lead in the market and delivers more hardware.  Every single day that AM makes profits fills their war chest to battle future competitors and adapt to changing market conditions. Why do you assume that they won't continue to expand and profit?

Quote
And regardless of how it happens, mining costs are going to become closely tied to the cost of electricity in the near future. That means Friedcat is in trouble, as his electricity is not particularly cheap (being several times more expensive than Siberia and Washington).
well, based on the cost of a few of those datacenters, renting space may be the most significant cost, not electricity.  Unless, of course, you have $35M to build a datacenter from scratch in WA or Siberia. 

I don't know the exact cost of FC's power, as I am not familiar with bulk electricity costs in China.  Here in Mexico, however, published prices are what citizens pay, but companies/bulk purchasers typically enjoy prices 1/2 to 1/3 of retail rates.

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August 18, 2013, 12:50:01 AM
Last edit: August 18, 2013, 03:15:30 AM by DeathAndTaxes
 #11194

I'm honestly a little surprised that people think this can't be done. Do you think Friedcat is a magician or something? I'm sure he had to rent space.

I never said it can't be done just that datacenter space is expensive, probably more than you think.  A datacenter has so much power, cooling capacity, and rack space.  They want to sell all three "commodities" in equal amounts so they don't run out of one before the other.  If they give you a higher electrical load per sq/ft that means either they need to sell underpowered racks to someone else OR they run out of power or cooling before they run out of space.  No datacenter operator (who just spent tens of millions building the thing) is going to do that.  It traps them into an underutilized capacity scenario which upsets all the bean counters. The fact that miners are energy dense doesn't really help.  They are going to want you to rent an equivalent amount of space for the power/cooling you need and then distribute your power/heat load across it.  That likely means a lot of expensive empty space.

The rate the datacenter pays for power isn't the whole story.  That class I building cost a fortune to build you are buying power, cooling, floor space, security, connectivity, redundancy, fire suppression, natural disaster resistance, etc.  It doesn't come cheap.  It is some of the most expensive real estate in the world (any data center).  I doubt it is going to be cheaper than space in China.  Maybe it is but I remain unconvinced it is so massively cheaper that giant PH/s operations will be operating at a tiny fraction of the operating cost.  


I didn't think Freidcat was renting space in a datacenter, I always thought (maybe incorrectly) it was just industrial/warehouse space.  Also I don't think ASICMiner is using as much power as the 900KW in the scenario we are responding to.
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August 18, 2013, 12:54:16 AM
 #11195

The reality is that to get something of this magnitude up and running is going to take months (at best).  We are going to see a lot of attempts fail to accomplish this goal, that's the nature of the beast.

This is all absolutely true. However:

1) It's entirely possible there are privately-funded projects that have been working on all of this for several months now, meaning they will be coming online shortly. In fact, I think it is more likely than unlikely that this is the case.

2) Even if new projects do not come online until early next year, AM stock is assuming it will manage to maintain its current dividends for many years. We're talking about months until those dividends take a serious beating.

2. There is a great possibility that dividends increase over the next months, especially if AM continues to hold its lead in the market and delivers more hardware.  Every single day that AM makes profits fills their war chest to battle future competitors and adapt to changing market conditions. Why do you assume that they won't continue to expand and profit?

Margins. Before, AM was selling each blade at 50 BTC a pop (and making a proportionally higher amount of profit off the ones they kept for mining). You can see they're selling them at 10 each now. That's 40 BTC in profit per unit gone, because the total hashrate has soared along with the competition. The gold rush days are ending.

AM could very well have 40% of the hashrate this time next year and be making less profit than they are today.

I'm honestly a little surprised that people think this can't be done. Do you think Friedcat is a magician or something? I'm sure he had to rent space.

I never said it can't be done just that datacenter space is expensive, probably more than you think.  A datacenter has so much power, cooling capacity, and rack space.  They want to sell all three "commodities" in equal amounts so they don't run out of one before the other.  If they give you a higher electrical load per sq/ft that means either they need to sell underpowered racks to someone else OR they run out of power or cooling before they run out of space.  No datacenter operator (who just spent tens of millions building the thing) is going to do that.  It traps them into an underutilized capacity scenario which upsets all the bean counters. The fact that miners are energy dense doesn't really help.  They are going to want you to rent an equivalent amount of space for the power/cooling you need and then distribute your power/heat load across it.  That likely means a lot of expensive empty space.

The rate the datacenter pays for power isn't the whole story.  That class I building cost a fortune to build you are buying power, cooling, floor space, security, connectivity, redundancy, fire suppression, natural disaster resistance, etc.  It doesn't come cheap.  It is some of the most expensive real estate in the world (any data center).  I doubt it is going to be cheaper than space in China.  Maybe it is but I remain unconvinced it is so massively cheaper that giant PH/s operations will be operating at a tiny fraction of the operating cost.  


I didn't think Freidcat isn't renting space in a datacenter, I always thought (maybe incorrectly) it was just industrial/warehouse space.  Also I don't think ASICMiner is using 900KW as was indicated in the scenario we are responding to.  

Perhaps you're right and I'm underestimating the ease of getting cheap datacenter space, a problem Friedcat sidestepped by renting industrial space.

So... rent as many industrial units in North Central Washington as is necessary? If Friedcat originally got this done on a short time scale and a shoestring budget, then that business model can be repeated.

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August 18, 2013, 12:58:08 AM
 #11196

Also I don't think ASICMiner is using 900KW as was indicated in the scenario we are responding to. 

In the hypothetical example we have been discussing, the 900 kW was to have 10% of the network in September, or about 100 TH/s, based on energy consumption of Avalon chips (9w/ GH/s)

AM had around 50 TH/s this week, and I don't know how efficient their chips are, but I would assume their electricity use is actually probably in the same range as that 900 kW.

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August 18, 2013, 01:54:30 AM
 #11197

FC has already said he would be distributing operations in order to minimise geopolitical and other risks. Franchising further reduces those risks. FC is two steps ahead. Vycid is two steps behind.
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August 18, 2013, 02:07:27 AM
 #11198

FC has already said he would be distributing operations in order to minimise geopolitical and other risks. Franchising further reduces those risks. FC is two steps ahead. Vycid is two steps behind.

Friedcat is planning to restructure his business (always risky) in order to remain competitive with a business model that his competitors will ostensibly have right off the bat.

Franchising is a good idea to go beyond 20% of the hashrate without appearing to threaten to the stability of the network. Since he's nowhere near 20% right now, it's just a good way to cut into profit margins.

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August 18, 2013, 02:24:20 AM
 #11199

FC has already said he would be distributing operations in order to minimise geopolitical and other risks. Franchising further reduces those risks. FC is two steps ahead. Vycid is two steps behind.

Friedcat is planning to restructure his business (always risky) in order to remain competitive with a business model that his competitors will ostensibly have right off the bat.

Franchising is a good idea to go beyond 20% of the hashrate without appearing to threaten to the stability of the network. Since he's nowhere near 20% right now, it's just a good way to cut into profit margins.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Keep on truckin', Friedcat!

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August 18, 2013, 02:48:07 AM
 #11200

FC has already said he would be distributing operations in order to minimise geopolitical and other risks. Franchising further reduces those risks. FC is two steps ahead. Vycid is two steps behind.

Friedcat is planning to restructure his business (always risky) in order to remain competitive with a business model that his competitors will ostensibly have right off the bat.

Franchising is a good idea to go beyond 20% of the hashrate without appearing to threaten to the stability of the network. Since he's nowhere near 20% right now, it's just a good way to cut into profit margins.
Being in this business is risky; AM is evolving to stay ahead. Ostensibly has no basis in fact.

Franchising is an additional revenue stream. Hash rate fluctuates so 'right now' is irrelevant.

If you can come up with something worthwhile that doesn't equally apply to any upcoming potential competition then great, but otherwise all the red herrings, heavily biased opinion, and conjecture but no substance is getting very tiresome.
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