I don't think a few percent is going to help, and I'm pretty sure they'd also fill it if blocks were 4 times bigger. It would just take a bit longer.
The whole mempool would be cleared in 8 hours of 4vMB blocks, 8 hours! Even if they will fill it, does it matter if they fill it with 5 sat/b? No. it doesn't, just as it didn't matter when everyone was spamming the mempool with 1 sat/b ordinals, user looked at the size of the mempool, and they saw that 5-7 sat/b tx still got confirmed and nobody really cared. The whole thing about increasing blocksize and assuming spam will keep with it reminds me of a discussion between the city councils against enlarging a road, their argument was that if we double the lines then we are going to have twice as many cars. I wondered if we increased the lanes ten times, would that mean we're going to have 3 million cars in traffic each day driven by, well, the 1 million people in my city? It's the same here, why everyone assumes there will be 7 times more people spamming the chain with brc-20 with the same fees?. I said 7 times because right now half of the blocks are still occupied by normal tx, mostly from exchanges batching and consolidating transactions, so spam is just half of this.
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I don't even know what these are. So is this some non-standard way to create tokens on Bitcoin? So like people are creating tokens (just useless meme tokens I assume) on Bitcoin with some non-standard ordinal-specific wallet or something? How are they trading them? As far as I know there aren't any decentralized exchanges like on Ethereum where you can trade anything, since tokens haven't really existed on Bitcoin before except a few old examples. Or is there some non-standard brc-20 wallet that lets you swap them? Or are there some exchanges that are actually listing these random tokens? Where do you even see what the brc-20 tokens are? Are there any popular ones? Are there a lot of them?
Let's see if I can mash all the answers to this tsunami of ? without sending you to read a link People found a way to mint tokens (brc20) which theoretically are fungible tokens on the bitcoin protocol, replicating some features of erc20 tokens but with a ton of serious flaws, in short, they are using basically the same let's call it ordinal exploit to mint them. As for trading them, I have no idea if there is a marketplace for them other than https://brc-20.io/ which looks like some 90s cms shop to me. Same for the wallet, I know there are 3 wallets that allow you to mint ordinals, like Xverse but no idea if they support brc-20 tokens, instead, you have a ton of web services where you can mint them quite cheaply if we take into account the fees we pay right now for a normal tx. The bad news: https://twitter.com/TheBinanceNFT/status/1655885586853425152?cxt=HHwWgMCzkeDK8fotAAAABinance is planning on adding ordinals, so from here just a step to adopt brc20 as the smell of cash and fat fees is probably too much for CZ. For the numbers, OMG, just go to https://brc-20.io/ there are nearly 15k of them, no idea about "popularity" but there must be some with an overall trade volume for 200 million a day! Also I see there has been an spam attack on Bitcoin this past week, and especially I guess on Sunday and Monday. Does this have to do with brc-20? Seems like that's what people are saying. Are people like just minting tons of these random tokens and that is what is flooding the mempool? Or is the spam attack entirely separate?
Yes to all of them! And is it really a spam attack, users are simply using what's available to them, if some want to pay $1000 to mint a frog meme with their own coins, it's their right, right? And at what price?
That's why I've asked!
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And I think this is already showing signs about happening already,
Not really, The market cap of brc-20 tokens just passed 1 billion in value, it was 900 mils yesterday. Total Market Cap: $1,027,464,504 Volume last 24 hours: $207,222,153 They would still be in the top 20 coins by trading volume, which is nuts! I just thope that time comes soon enough so that I can resume my DCA!
I don't get it, what stops you from doing DCA? Besides, if you make breaks in the buying patter it stops beings average at all and more speculation!
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You think bitcoin transactions are expensive, look into this source What a load of crap! Compare a service fee with simple payment transactions!!! OMG! Seriously, every single crisis in bitcoin, no matter how large or small brings out some zealots that are saying ridiculous things only trying to argue that black is blue, that red is white, and blue is also white. One of those times when is better to be a copium dealer than a heroin one.
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I broadcast that block to other nodes. Each node which receives my block has to validate the entire block, and then propagate it to other nodes, which also validate it before further propagating it, and so on. The larger the block is, then the longer this process takes. ~ There are other considerations too, as larger blocks increase the hardware cost to run a full node (again tending towards centralization), and the longer propagation time as I've outlined above also increases the rate of stale blocks and chain splits.
So, can you throw some estimates? For example how much longer it will take for a 4vMB block to propagate through the network compared to a 1vMB? It might be also interesting to scale this appropriately and with the internet speed difference between 2009 and 2023 Cause I have a feeling hobby miners in remote regions would have had more trouble uploading 1 MB then than 10 MB now....just saying. Same for the cost of running a full node. What extra cost would a 4vMB imply over the next 4 years let's say compared to a 1vMB? Large and well connected mining operations have an advantage over smaller miners here, and not just because of better hardware and connections meaning they can receive and validate blocks more quickly. If a mining pool has 30% of the hashrate then they find 30% of blocks on average, meaning they have a propagation delay disadvantage 70% of the time. If a small miner has only 1% of the hashrate, then they are at a disadvantage 99% of the time. Over time the smaller mining cannot survive, and hashrate becomes more centralized.
That boat has already sailed a decade ago: https://btc.com/stats/pool
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High fees? Checked! Useless tokens printed in millions? Checked! Hope the hype will die soon enough. Checked! Despair at the possibility of another hype? In progress... So, let's hear it first from the fans: ORC-20: Revolutionizing The Bitcoin Network With Enhanced Features For BRC-20 Tokens https://www.tronweekly.com/orc-20-revolutionizing-the-bitcoin-network/So much improvement, just look at these features: Of course, if we also read the story from the other side: https://thebitcoinmanual.com/articles/orc-20-tokens/it starts looking less hypy and more like the same thing wrapped in a different package with extra ribbons. How will this affect the mempool, will these gain more traction than the previous brc-20, will they die even before making a few more headlines, will a new protocol come out of nowhere and flood the mempool again? I'm sure nobody has a working crystal globe to answer them all precisely. But I'm curious about what others think the future holds! And one thing, there is a tiny difference between what you think will happen and what you hope will! So please focus on the first!
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Let's see if you can push this transaction 5f7fdd9030ec3139ccf354437defa7112895687687a726c08ff6ce371531aec3
It has 50.755 sat/vByte and probably miners wont prioritize such small amount of fee compared to recent transactions which has 50$ fees.
I got it submitted to ViaBTC, luckily I was reading this topic at around '58. LE: Seems like there is no real rush, 2 full minutes after the hour and only 5 out of the 100 free spots were taken.
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When your favorite T-shirt has strains but you have to go out immediately, what do you do? Either wear a new t-shirt (altcoin for bitcoin) for a while or wear that t-shirt and cover with jacket (Lighting Network for bitcoin).
Or you don't go out at all, and this would be the best analogy cause this is the advice everyone is giving out right now, including with the batching of payments from one week to two or even a full month. Bitcoin is the store of value, we can look at litecoin like its supporter in terms of transactions.
Why would Bitcoin keep being a store of value when its litecoin doing the things described in Bitcoin's whitepaper? Because the first paragraph was: A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution and nothing of a store of value. So yeah, coming back to your previous question, and don't forget this is coming from a bitcoin maxi, right now Litecoin is doing better what BTC was supposed to be.
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if no one mines anymore (because there's a sudden alien attack centered right on the asics, because they built them with a material that will self-destruct on a certain date etc. etc.) the difficulty will drop drastically in a short time. at that point mining will resume Because at least I will start mining with CPU like Satoshi
If that apocalyptic attack happens exactly after the difficulty adjustment and it wipes out let's say 90% of the hash rate prepare for months of pain while we mine enough blocks to reach a new difficulty adjustment, the last major downturn in hash rate which was gradual and only 27% ended with a full week on top of the normal 14 days period. If all asics disappear it will take just a few centuries to mine with a with cpus the required blocks. But I guess some will wait!
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~
C'mon, the 4th one was definitely a joke. By the way, what's wrong with altcoins? I don't really get the cynicism towards altcoins, if I say in altcoins I prioritize monero, will it still be a joke for you? What's wrong with litecoin as a quick solution for limited amount of time? Doge is a joke coin and no one says it should be used in first place. I know you were joking but the fact still stands, we've ended up discussing even as a joke solution that none would have ever mentioned a month ago, it just shows that the situation is indeed really not comfortable at all. As for what is wrong with altcoins, if you end up using LTC because it has low fees, why use Bitcoin at all? LTC is decentralized, it's minable via POW, it has a finite supply, and has lower fees, you see what slippery slope we're getting if every time there is an issue with BTC we look at altcoins?
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There are some solutions: ~ 3. Use altcoins for a limited time till fees go down. 4. This is the worst advice but if we all use the same exchange, we can all get rid of fees but I don't think that's ever gonna happen as it shouldn't.
5. Use Paypal! I don't think there would be a greater insult to a bitcoiner on this forum than having to get paid in Dogecoin instead of Bitcoin and not because of some funding problems but because, wow, right now the Doge network is better at doing transactions. Seriously how would we even dare to show our faces here or ever use the word shitcoin if we're forced to use such a thing? As for the centralized solution, just wow, as I said, why not Paypal or let's just use bank wires? Seriously I can't believe what we've ended up discussing here, this is just crazy!
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That would be a good start but it would somehow have to be done in a way to avoid the pitfalls facing BCash and BSV - most transactions in a block are not real transactions but they are spam, but the only difference is, instead of flooding the mempool, they will eventually overwhelm the full nodes beyond disk capacity (remember that a large percentage of nodes are hosted on Hetzner and AWS).
I don't think this is an issue since we had times with blocks being half full just a month ago, if nobody wanted to make a spam attack they won't be doing it with a 4vMB block size. As for the disk space, what would be the additional cost in let's say 3 years of full x4 blocks for a node? 50k blocks a year, 150k in three years, extra 500GB! Also: On BTC a 1 sat/b tx costs 4 cents on Bitcoin cash it's 200 times cheaper in $ value, so you could send about 2000 of them for the price of a soda can.
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Who writes there that Visa and MasterCard are doomed?
And Western Union! Remember how it was expensive to pay 5$ for a 100$ cash transfer? Personally, I don’t care where they accepted bitcoin as a means of payment, in Africa or El Salvador, I don’t care how many bitcoins MicroStrategy has in their wallet and other pseudo signs of adoption that are only good for merry applause in the comments, I don’t care . For me, an adoption is when I have Bitcoin and I can freely pay it anywhere, at any time, and without any obvious overpayment, using various payment options, whether it be the main network or other network add-ons.
Ok, let's assume everyone would be like you, and we would have those 100 million Bitcoin users in India some claim they really exist, doing a single transaction to buy stuff. Suddenly you would have 100 million tx in the mempool, not 400k. How would that work? Let's start admitting the past mistakes, sticking to this 1vMB block size it's just stupid! It might have sounded reasonable by 2009 costs per TB and internet speeds back then but we're in 2023 when I can get 80Mbps on my phone in the mountains and a fucking 2tb EVO is 110$. If the protocol that was supposed to bring down the whole old order, banks, central banks, and governments, change the global economy, raise millions out of poverty will die before achieving that because: - you can't have a few thousand pay 200$ for a full node while we brag about 10000x profits - a horde of jpg monkeys is crashing the network with daily fees that match only what the US Navy is spending daily on one! aircraft carrier group then we must admit something went completely wrong in the planning!
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As of 2022 the country Kazakhstan generated 7 million dollars from bitcoin miners;
Hmm, at 13% of the hash rate and an average price of $30 000 miners in Kazakhstan made 1,281,150,000 in revenue while the government collected 7 million in taxes. And some wonder why every single government wants to tax miners more and more!!! 1.2 BILLION! in revenue and 7 mils in tax! Lol. the miners should shut the fuck up and be happy to pay that.
With block fees going closer to the block reward it will take one week of hype to pay all the taxes for one year, it's really the worst moment to complain about a 1cent increase.
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What I don't understand is why suddenly everyone needs a space in block? I mean there were not much demand, and now for some reason demand increased.
Ordinals and BRC20 tokens hype and FOMO! Those are the tourists that only come once a year, throw money at expensive garbage stuff, in this case, useless NFT and tokens, and then when the season ends they leave and everything is back to normal You can have a look at it here, a wave of people paying high fees to mint their tokens on the Bitcoin blockchain. https://brc-20.io/stompix gave a real ELI5 explanation...
He asked for one, and that's what he got!
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The fanciest restaurant in town has only 50 tables, and in order to get a table you need to outbid the other customers, now there is an influx of tourists that have more money to spend, they outbid the locals so the price for a reservation has gone 100x times up! Is it good for the Bitcoin network?
That's what users decide, and if you have an influx of users, that means....
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I agree with you, I don't know why everyone is going against the dollar and they just want the dollar to lose its value.
Years of brainwashing from their inapt governments blamed everything on external factors, not on their corruption, stupidity, and lack of innovation to keep up with the rest of the world. It's easier to say $ is bad than acknowledge your own mistakes. Dollar is causing a lot of havoc to third-world economies all over the world and countries will look for ways to protect themselves,
Ok, please explain how the dollar is causing havoc in third-world economies and it's the dollar's fault not the fault of those economies? While you're at it you might explain why a far larger percentage of the population in said countries is keeping their savings in $, unlike people in Western Europe or East Asia? When your own population is trusting more a foreign currency than your own, it's a clear sign the problem is elsewhere, right in your own backyard. China is the anchor of this, and of course, Russia is desperate, but anything planned under ganging up rather than letting economic demands be natural would not stand.
Well said, it's Comecon once more, with the same mistakes but with far fewer advantages.
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This is simply a challenging time for Bitcoin and those businesses that accept it and of course a rainy day for the miners. Rainy day? If it's raining money that would be more accurate. Miners' income has grown to nearly 33% if we consider the last few hour's averages, and we're finally around 10 cents per th/s after nearly a year of low-profit margin. Look at the bright side, the network is better protected also understand that this is a glimpse into the future when there will be no block reward and miners will have to keep mining only on fees. It is not advisable to paying for a $50 worth of product or service and paying a fee close to $20 except maybe it is a cross boarder transactions and bitcoin is the only easiest way to do it.
Remember that not only do you have to pay 20$ to send $50 in your example, but the one you're sending the $50 will need to spend $20 to use those coins since he has to do a tx also, so you're paying $70 so your relative can use $30.
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~ The mempool has gotten congested to the level Binance is no more charging 10x higher. The mempool is becoming something else. Because Binance process transactions with many outputs, if not that, Binance would have been paying more. Bitcoin fee on Binance was 0.0002 which is $5.78 when bitcoin is at $28900. This is what the mempool is say: mempool.space $8.15 for highest fee at 201 sat/vbyte.
You're making a mess of sat and dollars. The $8.15 is for a single input one output transaction, Binance is not doing any of those Here is an example of Binance doing a tx: https://mempool.space/tx/e097cd778c171aee685baf67f63a96a09f0160685108c2d13ec65c83980b0332297 sat/vB Fee 575,000 sat $166.56 and it has 78 outputs. So it has paid $166/78 > around $2.12 for each withdrawal. Or in Satoshi, they are charging 20000 and paying right now 7300 for each payment.
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Wow, the amount of BS in that announcement - Binance was charging 5x times the fees it was paying it it has always overpaid - Binance has its own mining pool with 10% of the mined blocks, they could easily process their own transactions
The real reasons are: - Binance doesn't want to miss on the juicy fees it mines in its blocks - Binance can't make profits any longer even while overcharging customers with fees - CZ as always is a piece of s..omethign and has again seen the opportunity to attack Bitcoin to promote his shitcoin
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