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To be honest, no one really "took the risk". We all purchased based on verbal contract that things would be delivered within a certain time-frame. If they weren't delivered, then contract was violated. It isn't up to any purchaser to own up to the late boards/chips, they have every right to pursue any legal course of action to remedy the situation. No purchaser is at fault.
TH isn't going to send everyone extra boards or gen 2 boards for free and it won't matter anyway, the window of opportunity is closed or almost closed. Difficulty will be at or above 75 M by the time anyone here gets thier boards and will within two weeks be up to 100M. You needed to be mining through the pre 50M and 50M diff to hit your ROI.
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Very vague at best... who was it that was calculating orders vs shipments? so out of 130k chips who can expect how much and when?
Do we/TH stand a chance, if this is really so? coud be another stall and delay move....from yifu. He is good a stringing people along. Lets hope its real.
Its not. Its already too late if you figure the difficulty increase. The ship has sailed. Had we got our units on the 15th at the latest, we probably would have ROIed. We should have had them earlier and we would have profited some. |
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Just did an estimation over at http://www.coinish.com/calc/#. Assuming an 11.7% reduction in profitability each week, I won't make $300 over the course of a year with 18 GH/s. Had we got these when we were supposed to I would have broke even around 30 days. At some point, not sure when, the difficulty rise will drop-off drastically. This probably won't be for another year or two - once the mining companies start maximizing the ASIC performance. |
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How can B1 and B2 orders not been delivered yet they are sending out B3? Did the purchase order info just get lost and Avalon thinks they were all fulfilled in B1 and B2? That doesn't really add up.
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Im beginning to think yifu doesn't have a clue as to where the chips are...mush less anyone else" which is lame. We/I really need to hear something today.
I'm also beginning to think difficulty is going to reduce the ROI to not much. The only winnig hand is if bitcoins increase in value. If it does, you actually can make quite a bit with 52% difficulty increase each month. No. If it requires an increase in price, you lost because you would have been better off buying Bitcoin. |
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When are we expecting the eASIC announcement?
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That the group buy leaders are so silent regarding this whole deal, you have to ask yourself "what is up?" Even TH is not saying much. How many sample chips did the group buy leaders get?
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I think they have been trying, Yifu is a difficult man to get in touch with at the moment.
No, they are not. I'm in steamboats group-buy, and he is doing fuck-all. He's making maybe 1 update every two weeks, saying "we'll wait". I hate to say it but his failure to reply to emails and keep the topics up-to-date, tells me that even the group buy organizers might be taking a similar route.Everybody needs to step up in their group buys and show the organizers that we mean fucking business right now. We are all losing more and more money and we're way past the point where it would even be sensible to consider investing in these chips. This makes me wonder what is really going on. Because, you would think the group buy leaders would be all over this but strangely they are not except for Bicknellski. Meanwhile hashrate is jumping through the roof somehow without any chips getting out. I have a feeling that there is some delays for the masses while the few who are privy are getting their fill while they can. Your group buy leaders may be in on the gig. The point is that the Avlon chips haven't arrived, so they haven't just got their ASICs. Do you realistically see any of the people mining before late September who are waiting on their chips? By that time, the ROI will be negative, and as I mentioned before not long until the mining is no longer covering electricity costs. If you keep mining and you are not covering electricity costs, that's kind of silly.
The difficulty has doubled in the past 30days. Is there any reason why it wont be well over 100mill by the end of September? More likely closer to 200mill.
Even at difficulty of 500mil and no change in BTC price, the gen1 chips will pull in a bit over twice the cost of electricity (for me at least, 7 cents/kwh). The problem you stated is correct though, if the chips don't arrive in the next week or 2 tops, then we may never break even on cost of the actual hardware unless difficulty levels out or BTC price rises. If you need BTC price to rise to break even then you are losing because you were better off buying BTC. Although, when most of us were thinking about purchasing these, the BTC price was $150 or so. |
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So where has all this mining power come from within the last two weeks to make it jump all the way to 50M if Avalon hasn't shipped the chips?
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I think this is all bad advice and the complete opposite of how the Bitcoin community should handle this situation. We cannot claim to want to eliminate the various bureaucracies and have a free-market and then turn around to run to them when things go wrong. We need to establish some market alternatives which address these issues.
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anyone naive enough to associate their real name with any significant bitcoin operation will be unpleasantly surprised. Bitcoin is completely incompatible with modern western banking and legal systems.
I would say Bitcoin is completely incompatible with banking and legal systems. instead So what you are saying, you can create a company, and if you charge by using bitcoins, no legal system can touch you? Are you then also incorporating your company in bitcoinland? If you have a corporation, it will be legislated by local goverment jurisdiction. No matter what monetary transactions you use to charge your clients. Then yes, bitcoins has some control issues (kyc, and anonymous illegal transactions) and this is what governments are adressing. The wallets, are slowly abiding by banking regulations, requiring kyc from you (passport and proof of address), this would then make it more legit in terms of regulations. Corporations does not become lawless on the mere fact of being a bitcoin business.. What wallet requires your address or passport? |
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Essentially it gets down to this: Some people believe that legal action may slow things down and even get negative impact if it forces Y(es)I('ve)F(*****)Y(ou)™ to court, instead of letting him to slowly ship chip batches in the future. They see legal action as a revenge, and not as a smart business move at this moment. This is false reasoning IMHO, Yifu has an USA based company and his basic interest is not to be brought to court in the USA, or get permanent arrest order if he tries to step into the USA. Court conviction may permanently damage his future, so if anything can bring him to make some kind of personal or financial sacrifice to deliver what his company is obliged - it's serious legal action. It will not make anything slower. Proper donation for legal support should be organized, let's say everybody should donate 1% of the worth of his chips. 1% of 10 mil. US$ is 100.000 US$, and it should be enough for some serious law firm for considerable time. If anyone who already donated gets his chips during the slow process of legal action, his donation will anyhow go to good cause, helping those who didn't get the chips get their legal satisfaction.
How much money do we need to bring this fat ass to the court? Though I am less rich than him (we all know how much money this guy has scammed from our community), but I think the law will bring judge to this guy. If a reliable community member can lead such a law suit, I will donate 50BTC 100BTC. With such a simple and easy thing, he will delay. This could only be intentional. Back in May, I have heard rumors that Avalon team is planning ship the chips late to give Avalon Batch 3 some profit. Now, the rumor became the truth. They intended to cover one mistake by another mistake. I would repeat that in a few other threads esp. the Terrahash one if you want to gain any momentum and/or attention. Also contact Bicknellski and a few of the group buy guys whose businesses are at stake... Feel free to do that, I'm just a small group buyer with no intentions to execute anything further myself, but would love to see what others think about it. Well it's possible now, 2/3 down, ouch; http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-12/n-y-regulator-subpoenas-firms-over-bitcoin-crime-risks.htmlIn addition to BitInstant, Dwolla and Coinsetter, the regulator sent subpoenas to the following service providers: BitPay, Coinabul, Coinbase Inc., CoinLab, eCoin Cashier, Payward, Inc., TrustCash Holdings Inc. and ZipZap, the person said.
Butterfly Labs, a technology company, also received a subpoena, according to the person familiar with the matter. The funny thing is... what exactly do these politicians think they can regulate about Bitcoin? All they can really do is make it illegal and then people will just use their bitcoin elsewhere. I don't think they really get it. Any attempt at regulating Bitcoin and you are placing a huge burden on US economic growth. |
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Given the ASIC designs to the Chicoms was the dumbest idea ever or maybe that was Yifu's plan - empower the homeland.
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no... BFL is not located in NY - NY the state has jurisdiction within its borders.
noone on this forum seems to understand jurisdiction. it's like AsicMiner getting a subpeona from him. does it make sense?
i mean they can ask nicely after all- subpeona is not asking nicely
New York is a big economy. Would your company want to risk being denied the ability to do business there? Also NY and CA tend to work in lockstep. If NY starts finding anything, you can be sure that CA will start looking too. CA's economy is larger than many countires. Texas is the largest economy in the US, 3rd largest economy in the world (or something like that). |
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Guys, understand what the New York Department of Financial Services does and you will realize this is about bitcoin as a currency, and fraud related to it ala Pirate40. In fact most likely a direct result of that case.
http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2013/memo1308121.pdf--- First, safety and soundness requirements help build greater confidence among customers that the funds that they entrust to virtual currency companies will not get stuck in a digital black hole. Indeed, some consumers have expressed concerns about how quickly their virtual currency transactions are processed. Taking steps to ensure that these transactions – particularly redemptions – are processed promptly is vital to earning the faith and confidence of customers. Second, serving as a money changer of choice for terrorists, drug smugglers, illegal weapons dealers, money launderers, and human traffickers could expose the virtual currency industry to extraordinarily serious criminal penalties. Taking steps to root out illegal activity is both a legal and business imperative for virtual currency firms. Finally, both virtual currency companies – and the currencies themselves – have received significant interest from investors and venture capital firms. Similar to any other
industry, greater transparency and accountability is critical to promoting sustained, longterm investment.
We look forward to working with the virtual currency industry and other stakeholders as our inquiry proceeds, and we move to put in place appropriate regulatory guardrails to protect consumers and our national security. But not when that transparency and accountability is the result of government bureaucracy and regulations. |
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I don't want to leave TH hanging but I do want them to prove to me that they are making attempts in cooperation with the other group buys to get Yifu to explain the facts of what has been happening, where the chips are and when they are coming, and how he is going to compensate the end users for violating his 9-10 week contract.
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So basically, shit or get off the pot. If you think you have been wronged and ignored to the point of suffering damages, sue yifu. If not, don't.
Whining on here serves no purpose.
It serves no purpose because 90% of the chip buyers nor the group buy leaders have any intention to say a word to Yifu. All that needs to be done is for the group buy leaders to hire a lawyer to get in contact with Yifu to arrange a face-to-face. We don't need to go through the process of a lawsuit. The problem is that Yifu thinks he is just allowed to ignore everyone. |
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Double the chips infact would compensate the loss
I'm not satisfied with doubled chips. Yifu should also send a cheerleader to each group buy organizer, and a bottle of whiskey to each buyer. Information. Where are the chips right now? When are they going to be arrive in our group buy leaders hands? Refund anyone who asks. Boycott Avalon until they do. Start legal action now. That be what we actually need. Bicknellski, have you tried to directly contact the other group buy leaders and places like TerraHash to organize something? I keep trying to get TerraHash to respond regarding what they are doing to get the ball rolling and I hear absolutely nothing. Need to get members of group buys as well to push this as well. Yes, pushing this behind the scenes as well but again group buy leaders need feedback before they can make decisions. Terrahash obviously is going forward with his build so I am not sure whether he wants to go for a refund at this time. Members in that buy should be discussing that with him. In the least, ALL the group buy leaders need to force Yifus hand and have a face-to-face with him, even if that means getting a lawyer to contact him. Noone needs to necessarily follow through with an entire drawn-out lawsuit but just to let him know people are serious. He is playing some sort of game where he doesn't think is required to communicate with anyone except when he decides to swoop down from Mt. Olympus. Then we can get real answers and work on some sort of damage compensation whether it e refunds, or adjusted chip prices, etc. TerraHash is about as good with communication as Yifu - if they don't feel like responding, they won't. |
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Double the chips infact would compensate the loss
I'm not satisfied with doubled chips. Yifu should also send a cheerleader to each group buy organizer, and a bottle of whiskey to each buyer. Information. Where are the chips right now? When are they going to be arrive in our group buy leaders hands? Refund anyone who asks. Boycott Avalon until they do. Start legal action now. That be what we actually need. Bicknellski, have you tried to directly contact the other group buy leaders and places like TerraHash to organize something? I keep trying to get TerraHash to respond regarding what they are doing to get the ball rolling and I hear absolutely nothing. |
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No, none of this is possible. If they were waiting on delivery that would have only given them two weeks, well there is stuff they ordered weeks ago that won't come in until next week or the week after. They must have known there was a delay or they simply weren't able to meet the delivery date. If they knew there was going to be a delay, they should have stated: "it has come to our attention that there will be a delay in the chip shipments by approximately 2-3 weeks, etc."
What if it becomes more than 2-3weeks? Isn't it simply better not to give estimates until they have something concrete from Avalon? I was just throwing numbers in. It doesn't matter how long. If they knew they should have said something, even a simple "we have gotten word that chips are delayed, we aren't sure how long but we will update you as soon as we have more details." Why does this kind of thing have to be explained to you all? Its really freaking strange that you all are aware enough to get into Bitcoin yet common sense evades you - this is everyday shizzle that honest businesses do. I think the deal with this stuff is that TerraHash and Avalon, etc. don't want to give people information, especially bad information because they fear that people are going to pull out and they don't want to be left hanging. So they don't update anyone with the bad news, they just play it off over and over again. "Don't tell them x, y, z, because that might scare people off, just tell them this... or nothing at all." |
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