Why do Atheists Hate Religion?

[Astargath]

You missed his point.  His point was that in the future we could discover how the world (and all the parallel universes) were created naturally. Your position is not allowing for any future discoveries to be accepted because it would invalidate your 'God the creator of all things' position entirely.

An honest position is to say: we know what we know, what we don't know we don't know...

Exactly. Just look at history. Was it not more logical to believe in a god 5000 years ago? I believe it was. People had so little information about anything, a big bearded man in the sky seemed quite logical. They also believed the earth was flat, can you blame them? Of course that was shown to be not even close to reality.

I would suggest a change of focus. The important question is not what unknown information might be out there in the universe that will be novel or force me to modify my worldview. Clearly there are probably quite a number of such discoveries. They are also entirely unknown and unpredictable.

We have no control over future discoveries. All we control is ourselves. Among the choices we face perhaps the most critical is the choice of what to worship. Everybody worships something though it’s often subconscious. David Foster Wallace highlighted this well in one of his well known speeches.

“You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what doesn't. You get to decide what to worship. Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship -- be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles -- is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive.

If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness.

Worship power, you will end up feeling weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. But the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful, it's that they're unconscious. They are default settings.
They're the kind of worship you just gradually slip into, day after day, getting more and more selective about what you see and how you measure value without ever being fully aware that that's what you're doing.

And the so-called real world will not discourage you from operating on your default settings, because the so-called real world of men and money and power hums merrily along in a pool of fear and anger and frustration and craving and worship of self. Our own present culture has harnessed these forces in ways that have yielded extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom. The freedom all to be lords of our tiny skull-sized kingdoms, alone at the center of all creation. This kind of freedom has much to recommend it. But of course there are all different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talk about much in the great outside world of wanting and achieving and display.

The really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad petty, unsexy ways every day. That is real freedom. That is being educated, and understanding how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had, and lost, some infinite thing.”

As for the concern that my chosen worship will not allow me to accept future discoveries because they run contrary to my faith I honestly think that cannot happen. One of the advantages of choosing to worship God is that it moves the object of worship outside of the closed system. See: An Argument for God. In doing so a full understanding of the system becomes the natural goal.

The problem with your ''logical'' argument is that you can't prove it, if it's really logical and obvious, everyone would know it and yet not everyone believes in god, also not everyone who believes in god, believes in the same god.

Also, we are talking about an eternal, all powerful all knowing being, right? Well, such a being would simply not care about us or anything at all, think about it logically, he already knows everything and can do anything, he simply wont care, a human death or baby being born is meaningless for him, the amount of particles in the universe doesn't even change, why would such a being need to be ''loved'' and worshiped?

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[BADecker]

I would suggest a change of focus. The important question is not what unknown information might be out there in the universe that will be novel or force me to modify my worldview. Clearly there are probably quite a number of such discoveries. They are also entirely unknown and unpredictable.

We have no control over future discoveries. All we control is ourselves. Among the choices we face perhaps the most critical is the choice of what to worship. Everybody worships something though it’s often subconscious. David Foster Wallace highlighted this well in one of his well known speeches.

“You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what doesn't. You get to decide what to worship. Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship -- be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles -- is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive.

If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness.

Worship power, you will end up feeling weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. But the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful, it's that they're unconscious. They are default settings.
They're the kind of worship you just gradually slip into, day after day, getting more and more selective about what you see and how you measure value without ever being fully aware that that's what you're doing.

And the so-called real world will not discourage you from operating on your default settings, because the so-called real world of men and money and power hums merrily along in a pool of fear and anger and frustration and craving and worship of self. Our own present culture has harnessed these forces in ways that have yielded extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom. The freedom all to be lords of our tiny skull-sized kingdoms, alone at the center of all creation. This kind of freedom has much to recommend it. But of course there are all different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talk about much in the great outside world of wanting and achieving and display.

The really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad petty, unsexy ways every day. That is real freedom. That is being educated, and understanding how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had, and lost, some infinite thing.”

As for the concern that my chosen worship will not allow me to accept future discoveries because they run contrary to my faith I honestly think that cannot happen. One of the advantages of choosing to worship God is that it moves the object of worship outside of the closed system. See: An Argument for God. In doing so a full understanding of the system becomes the natural goal.

If you MUST worship something, I suggest you worship life (plants, animals, including humans), develop deep, meaningful relationships with people, animals around you.

As for the closed or open systems, it is your assumption, just like your assumption that God must exist.

We are here on this Earth for a very short time; make the best of it.  

Impact lives of people around you in a positive way, create good memories.  That is all you can do.

You did not exist for billions of years, you exist only for about 80-120 years if you are lucky, then you go back to non-existing forever (or about 20 billion years as some estimate, then the Big Rip or Big Crunch will destroy all atoms in your body and the rest of the universe).

We are indeed only on this earth for a very short period of time and your suggestions on ways to make the most of that time are not bad ones.

1) Impact the lives of people around you in a positive way.
2) Create good memories.
3) Develop deep, meaningful relationships with people.
4) Love and respect life (humans, plants, animals).

These are all good suggestions but do they qualify as the objects of worship that Mr. Wallace described above? To answer that we must ask another question. Are we valuing those things as means to an end or an end in itself?

Perhaps what we are really after is personal pleasure and satisfaction and feel those rules the best way to achieve it. In that event personal pleasure is our true object of worship not the suggestions. We despite our fine words are much more akin to the hedonist placing our pleasure above all else. One man might value deep meaningful relationships another endless one night stands personal preferences vary.

Or perhaps we are really value successful reproduction and ensuring our genetic line extends propagates. Maybe those suggestions are our opinion on how best to achieve that. In that case we are again worshiping reproduction not the fine suggestions. One man may opt for the strategy of being the reliable family man, another might seek to be a scoundrel to seduce and then repeatedly abscond at the first opportunity. Strategies like personal preferences also vary.
 
Or maybe just maybe we actually value those things as an end in an of themselves. That is far less likely. BADecker was correct when he noted that most of the time what we humans do is self-worship. If we value something as an end in and of itself we become more concerned more with the essence of those things and less about their impact on us personally. If we truly treasure deep, meaningful relationships or the love and respect of life as an ends then our primary concern will not be maximization of those things in our personal lives though that will most certainly happen. Instead our primary goal will be ensuring those treasured ends grow stronger in the world and do everything we can to ensure that after our deaths we leave a world with more of those meaningful relationships and a greater love and respect of life then was there when we entered it.

If we value something as an ends we must ask ourselves how do I make sure I work towards those ends even if I don't want to or I am tired. What will keep me on track when those ends no longer give me the pleasure they once did or they become costly. How do I grow those many good things in a world that is not necessary fertile soil for the principles and does not prioritize them. A system is obviously necessary. A system that strengthens us and helps keep our focus on necessary goals.

I would propose two alternative rules from which your four goals can be naturally derived from.

1) Love God: This unifies all creation under a father. It makes all of us and all of life siblings to one another.
2) Love your neighbor as yourself: This dictates how we are to treat our siblings.

I would suggest that your list of good things follows naturally from genuine application of the two premises above. Furthermore I would highlight that the the above two rules are viable as ends in and of themselves and not just as means. Finally I would point out that their exists a well structured system built around those principles that already exists to help support and propagate them.

What we worship ultimately defines what we are.

I said, "if you must worship".  I don't need to worship anything.

I cannot believe it.  Are all religious folks so shallow to think only about themselves and their salvation?  
It is all about you and your personal pleasure.  

Why would you even think that someone would want to be good to others to satisfy their own personal whimsy?

You are good to others so that others feel good.  That is what selflessness is all about.

Maybe religious people cannot become truly selfless that is why you don't understand or trust what I am talking about.

Maybe that is why you invent the supernatural to satisfy your pathological lack of empathy for human beings.

You need the supernatural because you lack connection with other, physical life.

I am afraid our nervous systems are wired differently that is why you do not truly trust and understand what I am saying.

Instead, you look for invalidation of my position elsewhere by inventing that reason to fit it into your worldview.

I am walking, talking Jesus or Budda compared to you guys.

The natural is supernatural. You might naturally use the natural, but you can't bring the natural into being from nothing. You can't even bring "nothing" into being. Natural and the nothingness that the natural sits in is all supernatural. Everything is based in the supernatural.

[CoinCube]

I said, "if you must worship".  I don't need to worship anything.

I cannot believe it.  Are all religious folks so shallow to think only about themselves and their salvation?  
It is all about you and your personal pleasure.  

Why would you even think that someone would want to be good to others to satisfy their own personal whimsy?

You are good to others so that others feel good.  That is what selflessness is all about.

Maybe religious people cannot become truly selfless that is why you don't understand or trust what I am talking about.

Maybe that is why you invent the supernatural to satisfy your pathological lack of empathy for human beings.

You need the supernatural because you lack connection with other, physical life.

I am afraid our nervous systems are wired differently that is why you do not truly trust and understand what I am saying.

Instead, you look for invalidation of my position elsewhere by inventing that reason to fit it into your worldview.

I am walking, talking Jesus or Budda compared to you guys.

You are wrong on that point af_newbie. Everyone worships something. Your only choice is what that worship is centered on and whether you are going to be aware of what you are worshipping.

Here is the entire speech by David Foster Wallace. It was dubbed by Time magazine the greatest commencement speech of all time and it highlights this issue well.

This Is Water - Full version-David Foster Wallace Commencement Speech
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI

Almost none of us are selfless. I certainly am not. Religious people are still people. Yes an individual who is religious only out of a concern or fear for his or her presumed future salvation is also engaged in a form of self-worship. We are a very self centered species and our religions institutions are not immune to our failings. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, however, can with time and greater wisdom lead to doing the right thing for the right reasons.

Whether you are a walking, talking Jesus or Buddha compared to me I cannot say as I don’t really know you or how you live your life. What I can say is that as I have grown wiser my eyes have opened to my own sin and moral failures. I do not consider myself a “good” person. I consider myself a sinner who genuinely strives to sin less so that I can become a better person. Given your claim that you don’t know what sin means I recommend caution in comparing yourself to Jesus or Buddha.

[af_newbie]

I said, "if you must worship".  I don't need to worship anything.

I cannot believe it.  Are all religious folks so shallow to think only about themselves and their salvation?  
It is all about you and your personal pleasure.  

Why would you even think that someone would want to be good to others to satisfy their own personal whimsy?

You are good to others so that others feel good.  That is what selflessness is all about.

Maybe religious people cannot become truly selfless that is why you don't understand or trust what I am talking about.

Maybe that is why you invent the supernatural to satisfy your pathological lack of empathy for human beings.

You need the supernatural because you lack connection with other, physical life.

I am afraid our nervous systems are wired differently that is why you do not truly trust and understand what I am saying.

Instead, you look for invalidation of my position elsewhere by inventing that reason to fit it into your worldview.

I am walking, talking Jesus or Budda compared to you guys.

You are wrong on that point af_newbie. Everyone worships something. Your only choice is what that worship is centered on and whether you are going to be aware of what you are worshipping.
...

Nah...  I am amazed by all the life that is around us.  I do not worship it.  I appreciate it.

Life is, just is.  Whether I am alive, whether I am amazed by it or NOT.  It was here billions of years before me, and it will be here in billions of years after I die.

The difference between our positions is that you focus on the afterlife, I focus on this life when we are alive.
There is no afterlife IMHO.  You beg to differ.

You think that the afterlife is more important than this life.  That is why you don't value this life the same way I do.

To you this life is worthless, the life in the afterlife is the prize you are after.

The concept of God that you have invented is just mental imagery and feelings you have developed to help you believe that there is an afterlife; the afterlife you so desperately seek.

[BADecker]

Nah...  I am amazed by all the life that is around us.  I do not worship it.  I appreciate it.

Life is, just is.  Whether I am alive, whether I am amazed by it or NOT.  It was here billions of years before me, and it will be here in billions of years after I die.

The difference between our positions is that you focus on the afterlife, I focus on this life when we are alive.
There is no afterlife IMHO.  You beg to differ.

You think that the afterlife is more important than this life.  That is why you don't value this life the same way I do.

To you this life is worthless, the life in the afterlife is the prize you are after.

The concept of God that you have invented is just mental imagery and feelings you have developed to help you believe that there is an afterlife; the afterlife you so desperately seek.

That's your religion ^^^. Why? Because for all the evidence you can bring to show it, there is much more evidence against what you believe.

[af_newbie]

Nah...  I am amazed by all the life that is around us.  I do not worship it.  I appreciate it.

Life is, just is.  Whether I am alive, whether I am amazed by it or NOT.  It was here billions of years before me, and it will be here in billions of years after I die.

The difference between our positions is that you focus on the afterlife, I focus on this life when we are alive.
There is no afterlife IMHO.  You beg to differ.

You think that the afterlife is more important than this life.  That is why you don't value this life the same way I do.

To you this life is worthless, the life in the afterlife is the prize you are after.

The concept of God that you have invented is just mental imagery and feelings you have developed to help you believe that there is an afterlife; the afterlife you so desperately seek.

That's your religion ^^^. Why? Because for all the evidence you can bring to show it, there is much more evidence against what you believe.

Prove that there is life after death.  Shoot yourself in the head and post pictures before and after.

There is no life after death, I am convinced about this fact.  If you have ('so much more') evidence to the contrary, please do share it.

[BADecker]

Nah...  I am amazed by all the life that is around us.  I do not worship it.  I appreciate it.

Life is, just is.  Whether I am alive, whether I am amazed by it or NOT.  It was here billions of years before me, and it will be here in billions of years after I die.

The difference between our positions is that you focus on the afterlife, I focus on this life when we are alive.
There is no afterlife IMHO.  You beg to differ.

You think that the afterlife is more important than this life.  That is why you don't value this life the same way I do.

To you this life is worthless, the life in the afterlife is the prize you are after.

The concept of God that you have invented is just mental imagery and feelings you have developed to help you believe that there is an afterlife; the afterlife you so desperately seek.

That's your religion ^^^. Why? Because for all the evidence you can bring to show it, there is much more evidence against what you believe.

Prove that there is life after death.  Shoot yourself in the head and post pictures before and after.

There is no life after death, I am convinced about this fact.  If you have ('so much more') evidence to the contrary, please do share it.

Proof works like this:
1. Get into the proof that God exists. The Scientific proof that God exists? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.0) thread will help you with this.
2. Scientifically check out the validity of the Bible. Many Internet searches will help you with this.

You simply have another false religion that you say you are convinced of, but you really have no basis for your religion than talk. Your religion is founded in science theory... which is not factual, as shown by the fact that it can be changed.

[CoinCube]

Nah...  I am amazed by all the life that is around us.  I do not worship it.  I appreciate it.

Life is, just is.  Whether I am alive, whether I am amazed by it or NOT.  It was here billions of years before me, and it will be here in billions of years after I die.

The difference between our positions is that you focus on the afterlife, I focus on this life when we are alive.
There is no afterlife IMHO.  You beg to differ.

You think that the afterlife is more important than this life.  That is why you don't value this life the same way I do.

To you this life is worthless, the life in the afterlife is the prize you are after.

The concept of God that you have invented is just mental imagery and feelings you have developed to help you believe that there is an afterlife; the afterlife you so desperately seek.

In this you have judged me incorrectly.

I don’t think an afterlife is more important then this life. Any afterlife would be an extension of this life built upon the foundation we create in the here and now.

I also believe you are wrong about the afterlife but even if you are right it would change nothing. God brings goodness into this world primarily via the actions of his children who contemplate him. If God had not yet created the conditions necessary for an afterlife then the sacrifice called for by his creations would be much greater but our duty would remain unchanged. Genesis 28:12 and John 4:38 can give you a hint as to what that duty would be. Fortunately, for us the same text tells us that the necessary price has already been paid.

Ultimately even the afterlife is secondary. What matters most is what we ourselves are and that in turn is driven by what we choose to worship.

[BADecker]

^^^ The afterlife is forever. This life is only for, say, 100 years, or so.

[af_newbie]

Nah...  I am amazed by all the life that is around us.  I do not worship it.  I appreciate it.

Life is, just is.  Whether I am alive, whether I am amazed by it or NOT.  It was here billions of years before me, and it will be here in billions of years after I die.

The difference between our positions is that you focus on the afterlife, I focus on this life when we are alive.
There is no afterlife IMHO.  You beg to differ.

You think that the afterlife is more important than this life.  That is why you don't value this life the same way I do.

To you this life is worthless, the life in the afterlife is the prize you are after.

The concept of God that you have invented is just mental imagery and feelings you have developed to help you believe that there is an afterlife; the afterlife you so desperately seek.

In this you have judged me incorrectly.

I don’t think an afterlife is more important then this life. Any afterlife would be an extension of this life built upon the foundation we create in the here and now.

I also believe you are wrong about the afterlife but even if you are right it would change nothing. God brings goodness into this world primarily via the actions of his children who contemplate him. If God had not yet created the conditions necessary for an afterlife then the sacrifice called for by his creations would be much greater but our duty would remain unchanged. Genesis 28:12 and John 4:38 can give you a hint as to what that duty would be. Fortunately, for us the same text tells us that the necessary price has already been paid.

Ultimately even the afterlife is secondary. What matters most is what we ourselves are and that in turn is driven by what we choose to worship.

Goodness can also be brought by people who do not contemplate God and are convinced that belief in the supernatural is a bunch of horseshit.  How would you explain that? LOL.

You have no proof that afterlife or any Gods exist, yet you somehow think you stand on the higher moral ground by having these irrational beliefs.  

You are an enigma to me.  You seem to understand what I am talking about, but yet have this mental block when it comes to your irrational assumption about the 'creator of the universe who influences the world through the actions of people who believe in him'.

How in the world can you prove that your God influences the actions of people who contemplate him?  Aren't hardcore Atheists not God's children? Aren't billions of Hindus or Chinese Buddhists not God's children?

[dippididodaday]

You are wrong on that point af_newbie. Everyone worships something. Your only choice is what that worship is centered on and whether you are going to be aware of what you are worshipping.
Here is the entire speech by David Foster Wallace. It was dubbed by Time magazine the greatest commencement speech of all time and it highlights this issue well.
This Is Water - Full version-David Foster Wallace Commencement Speech
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI

It looks to me this Wallace fellow had it right (7:19-46) about the way it seems to me almost all, if not all, academic induced peacockish individuals live their particular puny lives of worship : "Given the triumphant academic setting here, an obvious question is how much of this work of adjusting our default setting, involves actual knowledge or intellect? This question gets very tricky. Probably the most dangerous thing about an academic education, at least in my own case, is that it enables my tendency to over-intellectualize stuff, to get lost in abstract arguments inside my head, in stead of simply paying attention of what is going on right in front of me."

You will always find other humans right in front of you, but "God" - never ever.

[BADecker]

You are wrong on that point af_newbie. Everyone worships something. Your only choice is what that worship is centered on and whether you are going to be aware of what you are worshipping.
Here is the entire speech by David Foster Wallace. It was dubbed by Time magazine the greatest commencement speech of all time and it highlights this issue well.
This Is Water - Full version-David Foster Wallace Commencement Speech
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI

It looks to me this Wallace fellow had it right (7:19-46) about the way it seems to me almost all, if not all, academic induced peacockish individuals live their particular puny lives of worship : "Given the triumphant academic setting here, an obvious question is how much of this work of adjusting our default setting, involves actual knowledge or intellect? This question gets very tricky. Probably the most dangerous thing about an academic education, at least in my own case, is that it enables my tendency to over-intellectualize stuff, to get lost in abstract arguments inside my head, in stead of simply paying attention of what is going on right in front of me."

You will always find other humans right in front of you, but "God" - never ever.

Luke 17:21 KJV:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

[BADecker]

How in the world can you prove that your God influences the actions of people who contemplate him?  Aren't hardcore Atheists not God's children? Aren't billions of Hindus or Chinese Buddhists not God's children?

You need to start by recognizing that all thoughts, words, and actions are controlled by cause and effect. Once you realize this, then you can start to figure out how you might influence all cause and effect, to see if you have any control whatsoever.

[Astargath]

How in the world can you prove that your God influences the actions of people who contemplate him?  Aren't hardcore Atheists not God's children? Aren't billions of Hindus or Chinese Buddhists not God's children?

You need to start by recognizing that all thoughts, words, and actions are controlled by cause and effect. Once you realize this, then you can start to figure out how you might influence all cause and effect, to see if you have any control whatsoever.

It can't be both badecker. It's either free will or not.

[BADecker]

How in the world can you prove that your God influences the actions of people who contemplate him?  Aren't hardcore Atheists not God's children? Aren't billions of Hindus or Chinese Buddhists not God's children?

You need to start by recognizing that all thoughts, words, and actions are controlled by cause and effect. Once you realize this, then you can start to figure out how you might influence all cause and effect, to see if you have any control whatsoever.

It can't be both badecker. It's either free will or not.

I agree with you.

Imagine a wealthy quadriplegic. He has free will. But he can't do anything. So, he gives his free will orders, and others do it.

Or imagine AI that comes to life, in its early stages. It has artificial free will, even though it may not realize it. This is said right in the name Artificial Intelligence.

Cause and effect shows us that we don't have free will. If we have free will, it is in a form that we don't scientifically understand, yet. But the fact that we have such determined artificial free will as we have, suggests that there is free will in us in some strange way.

Think of the implications of us having free will when all we can see is artificial free will. The basic implications of this are twofold (without looking at the God idea):
1. We are all artificial intelligence, or;
2. Either we free-will control C&E through some kind of space/time "hacking" of the basic initial cause(s) of all things, or our fundamental science/understanding-of-physics is completely wrong.

[Astargath]

How in the world can you prove that your God influences the actions of people who contemplate him?  Aren't hardcore Atheists not God's children? Aren't billions of Hindus or Chinese Buddhists not God's children?

You need to start by recognizing that all thoughts, words, and actions are controlled by cause and effect. Once you realize this, then you can start to figure out how you might influence all cause and effect, to see if you have any control whatsoever.

It can't be both badecker. It's either free will or not.

I agree with you.

Imagine a wealthy quadriplegic. He has free will. But he can't do anything. So, he gives his free will orders, and others do it.

Or imagine AI that comes to life, in its early stages. It has artificial free will, even though it may not realize it. This is said right in the name Artificial Intelligence.

Cause and effect shows us that we don't have free will. If we have free will, it is in a form that we don't scientifically understand, yet. But the fact that we have such determined artificial free will as we have, suggests that there is free will in us in some strange way.

Think of the implications of us having free will when all we can see is artificial free will. The basic implications of this are twofold (without looking at the God idea):
1. We are all artificial intelligence, or;
2. Either we free-will control C&E through some kind of space/time "hacking" of the basic initial cause(s) of all things, or our fundamental science/understanding-of-physics is completely wrong.

''But the fact that we have such determined artificial free will as we have, suggests that there is free will in us in some strange way.'' Right.. whatever makes you happy bro. If we have the tiniest amount of free will then cause and effect is meaningless, again, it cannot be both, if there is no free will and everything has a cause that has a cause, etc, then it's gods fault.

[BADecker]

I agree with you.

Imagine a wealthy quadriplegic. He has free will. But he can't do anything. So, he gives his free will orders, and others do it.

Or imagine AI that comes to life, in its early stages. It has artificial free will, even though it may not realize it. This is said right in the name Artificial Intelligence.

Cause and effect shows us that we don't have free will. If we have free will, it is in a form that we don't scientifically understand, yet. But the fact that we have such determined artificial free will as we have, suggests that there is free will in us in some strange way.

Think of the implications of us having free will when all we can see is artificial free will. The basic implications of this are twofold (without looking at the God idea):
1. We are all artificial intelligence, or;
2. Either we free-will control C&E through some kind of space/time "hacking" of the basic initial cause(s) of all things, or our fundamental science/understanding-of-physics is completely wrong.

''But the fact that we have such determined artificial free will as we have, suggests that there is free will in us in some strange way.'' Right.. whatever makes you happy bro. If we have the tiniest amount of free will then cause and effect is meaningless, again, it cannot be both, if there is no free will and everything has a cause that has a cause, etc, then it's gods fault.

You assume that our free will has to be located within a part of the universe. We don't know that there isn't a way that our free will is supernatural, and only attaches to the natural in some mysterious way. After all, without the understanding of how something works, the thing might seem to be supernatural. So, why not, if free will IS supernatural, might we not only never find a scientific understanding for it, but also definitely prove that it exists supernaturally, sometime?

We don't know that we can't have it both ways.

[exemplaar]

What part of there's a giant bearded dude in the sky that created earth and man don't you understand?

Notbatman is a simpleton or troll who ignores all scientific evidence, believes that everyone is engaged in a giant conspiracy to hide the nature of the planet and can apparently only visualize an infinite creator as a big man in the sky with a giant beard.

Nevertheless he is correct in this one implication. The existence of a creator is a straightforward and logical a priori. There is no observed example of spontaneous and sustained de-novo creation in the observed universe. Yet here we are and we can trace our existence back to a unique moment of infinite creation when the entire universe emerged and then expanded from a single point in space and time. Given the complexity of the universe and ourselves the belief there is a creative entity behind it all is indeed not hard to understand.

Bible is clearly and 100% without a shadow of doubt a flat earth book.

So what part of creation account exactly you do not understand, globo loving..don't know what.

[BADecker]

What part of there's a giant bearded dude in the sky that created earth and man don't you understand?

Notbatman is a simpleton or troll who ignores all scientific evidence, believes that everyone is engaged in a giant conspiracy to hide the nature of the planet and can apparently only visualize an infinite creator as a big man in the sky with a giant beard.

Nevertheless he is correct in this one implication. The existence of a creator is a straightforward and logical a priori. There is no observed example of spontaneous and sustained de-novo creation in the observed universe. Yet here we are and we can trace our existence back to a unique moment of infinite creation when the entire universe emerged and then expanded from a single point in space and time. Given the complexity of the universe and ourselves the belief there is a creative entity behind it all is indeed not hard to understand.

Bible is clearly and 100% without a shadow of doubt a flat earth book.

So what part of creation account exactly you do not understand, globo loving..don't know what.

Do you remember the story about Moses in the Bible? Notice that the Bible talks about Moses being on mountains - more than one, at different times in his life. And if that isn't enough, there are many other places mountains and valleys are talked about in the Bible. The earth is not flat.

[CoinCube]

You have no proof that afterlife or any Gods exist, yet you somehow think you stand on the higher moral ground by having these irrational beliefs.  

Goodness can also be brought by people who do not contemplate God and are convinced that belief in the supernatural is a bunch of horseshit.  How would you explain that? LOL.

You are an enigma to me.  You seem to understand what I am talking about, but yet have this mental block when it comes to your irrational assumption about the 'creator of the universe who influences the world through the actions of people who believe in him'.

How in the world can you prove that your God influences the actions of people who contemplate him? Aren't hardcore Atheists not God's children? Aren't billions of Hindus or Chinese Buddhists not God's children?

It’s very easy to prove God influences the actions of people who contemplate him there are examples of this happening every day. Here is a personal one.

I am a physician. Yesterday I had a patient come in to see me who was very poor and on Medicaid. In my field most providers in my specialty do not take Medicaid because it does not pay particularly well. The patient in question was a candidate for an interventional procedure I do to help with her condition. Most private insurances would have paid for it Medicaid will not because well because its Medicaid and sometimes you get what you pay for when it comes to insurance. So I put her on my schedule and will do the procedure for free. Why, because I can, she can benefit, and she honestly has no way to pay for it. She is poor I am not. I would not have done that 5 years ago before I started to contemplate God. In fact I would not have seen her at all because business is business and it is certainly not good business to do things for free or for that matter to see Medicaid patients at all. Now did God do that or did I do that? Well it was certainly me but I only did so because at some point in my life I started to contemplate God. So God gets the lion’s share of the credit probably all the credit because it was ultimately God and my contemplation of him that led to the act of mercy.

Goodness can indeed be brought into the world by people who do not contemplate God. Hardcore Atheists and billions of Hindus or Chinese Buddhists are most definitely God's children. Undeniably many of them by our very lenient human standards are good. You seem to place a high value on charity and helping others. Perhaps you would have done the exact same in my shoes. Perhaps you would do far more good and for far greater numbers if you had the exact same resources and skill sets I do. That is not the point. Some people are innately taller, some stronger, and other are more inherently good or evil then others. I am somewhere in the middle not particularly good not particularly evil average overall, I'd say except for academics I was blessed to be above average in that area. These differences are often inherent some people are naturally compassionate other have no inherent empathy at all.

The question is how we exceed ourselves. How do we go beyond our build in default condition? What is the best way to become good if we are not naturally very good or become better if we are already good? The answer is two-fold: 1) we can in theory fundamentally change ourselves at the biological or mental level. We lack the ability to do this now but there is no doubt this kind of change is coming soon and will almost certainly go catastrophically awry if we are not much wiser by the time it gets here 2) We can accept a fundamental Truth and worldview that forces attention to goodness front and center and into every aspect of our lives and propagate that Truth into the future. This second option is transformative. If chosen on a large enough scale it may just prevent or more realistically delay our self-destruction once the first option becomes possible.    

The mental block is yours as is ultimately the irrationality I understand your particular block well enough to know that you will translate all of this as my psychological need for irrational beliefs or God in order to "feel good" or "be good" or “address my insecurities.”  In doing so you will entirely miss the point. I understand why you think the way you do because I once shared a worldview not all that different from your and then rejected it so it is not hard for me to slip into old habits and envision the world as you do. The reverse is probably not true hence the enigma.