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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 383013 times)
chanson
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May 27, 2013, 05:23:27 PM
 #1661

What is relevant is your promise for 1 watt per GH/s. That didn't happen. It was a lie. The ever moving shipping dates.  

I think it's completely incorrect to allege deception/lies.

Those were their design projections, and it didn't work out that way. They've always been clear that they are developing a product, not that they have product in hand. Everyone could and should have easily known that they were making a purchase at the research and development stage before ordering. Especially anyone ordering more than a few hundred dollars worth could and should have known exactly what they were getting into. And BFL seems to provide refunds with very little friction, so nobody should be here that doesn't want to be.

I appreciate how open BFL is about their progress and setbacks. You seem to be venting. I think you should step back and decide whether you want your BFL product or not. If you do, chill out. If you don't, refund and walk away.
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charleshoskinson
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May 27, 2013, 05:29:55 PM
Last edit: May 27, 2013, 06:01:32 PM by charleshoskinson
 #1662

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Those were their design projections, and it didn't work out that way

They built and accepted money for a product queue that relied completely on that speculation. It was irresponsible to infer you could build something without a prototype in lab to confirm it. I am not venting. I am pointing out both inexperience and borderline consumer fraud. I should not claim I can build something, accept millions of dollars for it, hold on to the money for months promising to deliver without any justification for the dates and then deliver a product that is 600 percent off spec.

How could BFL claim that the products will ship in November when they didn't even have chips from the fabricator back then? If they did have the chips, then they would have known the minirig was impossible to build as advertised due to power consumption. So Josh said, we are shipping soon, when they didn't even have chips. Can't you understand the dishonesty?  
Quote
Everyone could and should have easily known that they were making a purchase at the research and development stage before ordering

This is just ignorance. You cannot make assumptions for the entire market about their ordering behavior. BFL never once stated how far along they were in R&D when preorders started. With the shipping dates they originally suggested many in the ASIC industry would have inferred that BFL had a working prototype in lab and were focusing on optimization, software and Q&A.

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chanson
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May 27, 2013, 06:00:43 PM
 #1663

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Those were their design projections, and it didn't work out that way

They built and accepted money for a product queue that relied completely on that speculation. It was irresponsible to infer you could build something without a prototype in lab to confirm it. I am not venting. I am pointing out both inexperience and borderline consumer fraud. I cannot claim I can build something, accept millions of dollars for it, hold on to the money for months promising to deliver without any justification for the dates and then deliver a product that is 600 percent off spec.

How could BFL claim that the products will ship in November when they didn't even have chips from the fabricator back then? If they did have the chips, then they would have known the minirig was impossible to build as advertised due to power consumption. So Josh said, we are shipping soon, when they didn't even have chips. Can't you understand the dishonesty?  

Well, this is the reality: so far BFL easily refunds your order and lets anyone easily walk away whole at any time (in the USD sense, I understand some people are disappointed because they wish they could be whole in the BTC sense given the currency appreciation).

So, everyone can freely choose to either walk away or stay in line for delivery of the GH/s they ordered at the price they paid.

So...

They didn't ship in November. If shipping last November is important to you, walk away.

The didn't hit 1 J/GH. If you care about the 1 J/GH, walk away.

If you think Josh is being an asshole, and Josh not being an asshole is important to you, walk away.

Personally, it looks to me that they are close to shipping and all the other ASIC stuff out there is lower performance, even less existent, or extremely more expensive.
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May 27, 2013, 06:02:42 PM
 #1664

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Well, this is the reality: so far BFL easily refunds your order and lets anyone easily walk away whole at any time

What about the people who paid in bitcoins and would lose over 3000 dollars getting a refund on a 5 GH unit? What the fuck do you have to say to them? You're a tool man.

They made a rational choice when they ordered and stayed because they were told over and over again that it's shipping soon. While they watched the bitcoin price skyrocket and the sudden sadness of forever losing their money. Tell me, what is BFL's stellar customer service going to do about them?

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chanson
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May 27, 2013, 06:08:34 PM
 #1665

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Well, this is the reality: so far BFL easily refunds your order and lets anyone easily walk away whole at any time

What about the people who paid in bitcoins and would lose over 3000 dollars getting a refund on a 5 GH unit? What the fuck do you have to say to them? You're a tool man.

I would tell them exactly the same thing I'd tell people that sold their BTC for USD last year and have now also "lost" 3000 dollars. At that time, they valued their BTC at that rate or they would have held onto it.

For all anyone knows, BTC could crash again and they will have made USD selling their orders.

They made a rational choice when they ordered and stayed because they were told over and over again that it's shipping soon. While they watched the bitcoin price skyrocket and the sudden sadness of forever losing their money. Tell me, what is BFL's stellar customer service going to do about them?

Give them back the entire amount of USD they received?
charleshoskinson
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May 27, 2013, 06:11:44 PM
 #1666


Quote
I would tell them exactly the same thing I'd tell people that sold their BTC for USD last year and have now also "lost" 3000 dollars. At that time, they valued their BTC at that rate or they would have held onto it.

This is about right:

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chanson
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May 27, 2013, 06:14:54 PM
 #1667


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I would tell them exactly the same thing I'd tell people that sold their BTC for USD last year and have now also "lost" 3000 dollars. At that time, they valued their BTC at that rate or they would have held onto it.

This is about right:
sockpuppets-love-to-get-fisted.jpg

What would you tell people that sold their BTC for USD last year and have missed out?
charleshoskinson
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May 27, 2013, 06:17:17 PM
 #1668

They made a choice at the time and had to suffer, but it was a personal choice. When I tell you I'm going to do something next month and you believe me, then you assume you have to wait a month. BFL continuously convinced the BTC preorders to hold on just a little longer thus they cannot be expected to make a fair decision.

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May 27, 2013, 06:20:30 PM
 #1669

Everyone could and should have easily known that they were making a purchase at the research and development stage before ordering.

 Wrong. It was never, EVER, sold or represented as a Research and Development product.
charleshoskinson
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May 27, 2013, 06:24:35 PM
 #1670

Quote

 Wrong. It was never, EVER, sold or represented as a Research and Development product.

He's a sockpuppet or a troll. Defending BFL at this stage is beyond possible. Notice Gavin made a nice statement about BFL's delay and then suddenly this happened:

Quote
Got a ButterflyLabs ASIC doo-hickey. PITA to find/setup pool/software/etc, but it is now hashing away at 5.2 GigaHash @ 35 watts
I wonder when he preordered....https://twitter.com/gavinandresen


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cokeman0
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May 27, 2013, 06:25:21 PM
 #1671

Yea, lets see, if they will ever ship... Roll Eyes Huh
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May 27, 2013, 06:25:57 PM
 #1672

Personally, it looks to me that they are close to shipping and all the other ASIC stuff out there is lower performance, even less existent, or extremely more expensive.

 They have been close to shipping for the last 5 months. ASICMiner or Avalon products are not less existent. They are expensive because they are available today, not cheap at the promise of having it at some unknown future date.
chanson
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May 27, 2013, 06:27:59 PM
Last edit: May 27, 2013, 06:59:49 PM by chanson
 #1673

They made a choice at the time and had to suffer, but it was a personal choice. When I tell you I'm going to do something next month and you believe me, then you assume you have to wait a month. BFL continuously convinced the BTC preorders to hold on just a little longer thus they cannot be expected to make a fair decision.

Let's cut this to the bone now.

  • If you wanted your device in September, and did not receive it or were unsatisfied with BFL, you could have refunded then and put it back into BTC (and made out well).
  • If you wanted your device in October, and did not receive it or were unsatisfied with BFL, you could have refunded then and put it back into BTC (and made out well).
  • If you wanted your device in November, and did not receive it or were unsatisfied with BFL, you could have refunded then and put it back into BTC (and made out well).
  • If you wanted your device in December, and did not receive it or were unsatisfied with BFL, you could have refunded then and put it back into BTC (and made out well).
  • If you wanted your device in January, and did not receive it or were unsatisfied with BFL, you could have refunded then and put it back into BTC (and made out well).

If you held for this long, and don't have a plan or the ability to evaluate your options, you're just foolish. If you are looking at a miner as an investment and you do not have your own understanding of when BTC or BFL is a better investment, you are not doing it right and you'd be better off playing the bingo with the seniors.

He's a sockpuppet or a troll.
What do you mean by this? I assume applying labels indicates that you are assigning traits to my responses. I'm new to bitcointalk, but the usual traits for sockpuppets and trolls is to not engage in substantive discussion. Perhaps you're frustrated that I deliberately ignore your cursing and name calling and baiting. Or perhaps your theory of mind assigns sees motivations reflected in others.

Personally, it looks to me that they are close to shipping and all the other ASIC stuff out there is lower performance, even less existent, or extremely more expensive.
They have been close to shipping for the last 5 months. ASICMiner or Avalon products are not less existent. They are expensive because they are available today, not cheap at the promise of having it at some unknown future date.
I think you misparsed my sentence ("or" ~= "and"). If you feel ASICminer or Avalon products are better investments, take your refund and buy there. That way BFL can get you again. I've been analyzing and reanalyzing this for a while to decide whether it's time to jump the BFL ship. I don't think the numbers work. None of them have anything you can actually buy right now (except for those joke USB eruptors money pits) and Avalon has successfully used batch #1 to sucker people into buying the increasingly delayed batchs #2, #3 and inferior chips they don't have in hand.
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May 27, 2013, 06:43:40 PM
 #1674

They have shipped 5 GH/s Jalapenos...if you ordered in June 2012 lol
kevindeangelis
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May 27, 2013, 06:55:03 PM
 #1675

They have shipped 5 GH/s Jalapenos...if you ordered in June 2012 lol

lol ... oh my ...

Xian01
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May 27, 2013, 07:01:41 PM
 #1676

None of them have anything you can actually buy right now (except for those joke USB eruptors money pits) and Avalon has successfully used batch #1 to sucker people into buying the increasingly delayed batchs #2, #3 and inferior chips they don't have in hand.

 The ASICMiner team also makes their 10-12GHs blades available for purchase in addition to their USB sticks.

 Avalon are certainly no where near close to walking on water, but to call their chips inferior is subjective. Yes they hash at lower rates compared to ASICMiner or BFL. Beyond that, I'm not sure what your point is. They are out in people's hands hashing today, and Avalon is working towards refining their production process.
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May 27, 2013, 08:10:00 PM
 #1677

No butterfly is not scam only very low low low low speed and delivered
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May 27, 2013, 08:11:00 PM
 #1678

No butterfly is not scam only very low low low low speed and delivered

At some point though, the low speed end up being a form of scam
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May 27, 2013, 08:29:18 PM
 #1679

Ordered (2) 60 g/h units from BFL in February... wonder when I'll be seeing them!

Keeping my fingers crossed!
 Lips sealed
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May 27, 2013, 08:57:14 PM
 #1680

If I'd keep my fingers crossed, they'd probably be stuck together by now. :-)
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