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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 378992 times)
canth
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May 22, 2013, 10:20:29 PM
 #1481

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The first Macintosh computer was delayed by 18 months

I am sure there are many epic fails in the history of mankind, but how does another fail make the BFL fail any better?

It certainly doesn't make it any better - I'd just say that being unable to deliver on expectations doesn't necessarily make BFL a scam. It sure lowers the value of their reputation and makes us all question their competency, but I'm not ready to pull out the scammer label.

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canth
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May 22, 2013, 10:23:12 PM
 #1482

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The first Macintosh computer was delayed by 18 months

Apple didn't accept millions of dollars in preorders. Make claims such as 1 watt per GH and be an order of magnitude out of spec. Tell us every month for month after month that the mac was shipping in just a few weeks. And then accepted bitcoin preorders costing everyone thousands of dollar. No Apple didn't do any of that.

BFL will end up shipping eventually OR they'll go bust. Either way, I bet some former BFL employee will eventually tell us the real inside story and we'll get a chance to see if it was lies or just a mismanaged firm/business plan.

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May 22, 2013, 10:37:49 PM
 #1483

I'm glad they run the show without a VC.
Yes, the OP has valid points, but do you homework and make up your own mind.
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May 22, 2013, 11:21:13 PM
 #1484

I'm glad they run the show without a VC.
Yes, the OP has valid points, but do you homework and make up your own mind.

Actually BFL reps have stated on many occasions that product development was funded by VC and that pre-order funds were not used for that purpose. I think you'd have to be pretty special to believe that a legit VC firm would watch BFL's antics over the course of the last year+ and not pull out, but that's what we've been told.

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May 22, 2013, 11:26:22 PM
 #1485

I'm glad they run the show without a VC.
Yes, the OP has valid points, but do you homework and make up your own mind.

Actually BFL reps have stated on many occasions that product development was funded by VC and that pre-order funds were not used for that purpose. I think you'd have to be pretty special to believe that a legit VC firm would watch BFL's antics over the course of the last year+ and not pull out, but that's what we've been told.

Which VC firm and how much did they put in?

(Must be public info.)

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creativex
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May 22, 2013, 11:38:38 PM
 #1486

I'm glad they run the show without a VC.
Yes, the OP has valid points, but do you homework and make up your own mind.

Actually BFL reps have stated on many occasions that product development was funded by VC and that pre-order funds were not used for that purpose. I think you'd have to be pretty special to believe that a legit VC firm would watch BFL's antics over the course of the last year+ and not pull out, but that's what we've been told.

Which VC firm and how much did they put in?

(Must be public info.)

Not a clue. BFL doesn't share specifics...unless of course their specifics are specifically designed to make their deceptions more credible.

VC funding is what we've been told. I'm not aware of any specifics being released by BFL.

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May 23, 2013, 01:08:35 AM
 #1487

It's dirty minded to be greedy about bitcoins. One is better off doing other greedy behavior than thinking a too good too be true concept will end up working out for you.

Even if BFL delivers the big stuff, things will most likely change to your disadvantage. There's much more to bitcoin than calculating numbers, hoping things pan out good. Do your diligence if you believe in increasing your success with bitcoin. And of course, ALWAYS accept risk of loss.
wheatrich
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May 23, 2013, 01:52:25 AM
 #1488

I'm just hoping everyone in front of me cancels their orders.  Tho if they don't I may have to (try to I guess) cancel mine.  It's just gonna be  too long for me to wait.
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May 23, 2013, 02:09:52 AM
 #1489

heard they are shipping now

Bitrated user: azwccc.
elux
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May 23, 2013, 02:35:52 AM
 #1490

I'm glad they run the show without a VC.
Yes, the OP has valid points, but do you homework and make up your own mind.

Actually BFL reps have stated on many occasions that product development was funded by VC and that pre-order funds were not used for that purpose. I think you'd have to be pretty special to believe that a legit VC firm would watch BFL's antics over the course of the last year+ and not pull out, but that's what we've been told.

Which VC firm and how much did they put in?

(Must be public info.)

Well, It was claimed in their June 15 press release:
http://www.prweb.com/pdfdownload/9611889.pdf

Quote
Butterfly Labs Announces Next Generation ASIC Lineup Largest SHA256 Hardware Manufacturer Acquires Venture Capital Funding

...

Venture Capital Funding Acquired, Record Rate of First Quarter Growth

Butterfly Labs, the largest market provider of SHA-256 hardware, is now backed by private venture capital, and
looking forward to continuing its operations in what some have recently labeled the “Silicon Prairie” of the
Midwest.

Retail sales have continued to grow strongly, and with exponential month-to-month sales increases, the decision
to back BFL was made easily. “Butterfly Labs has strong fundamentals indicative of the kind of rapid growth
company we support,” the private equity group notes. “Having made bold investments in new technology,
they’re poised to redefine the landscape for SHA-256 hash verification.”

...


I very, very strongly believe this to be an outright lie or a misrepresentation*,
as would anyone with even the faintest knowledge of how professional VCs operate.

In one sentence I would summarise it thus: Venture Capital firms do DUE DILLIGENCE.

It is just about the very most important factor considered when investing in a nascent company.




*i.e. "Venture Capital" really means Sonny Vleisides personal piggy-bank,
the missing millions stolen from little old-ladies and verifiably never recovered:


Quote
RESTITUTION:Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 3663A(c)(3), restitution is not ordered because (1) the number of identifiable victims is so large as to make restitution impracticable [3663A(c)(3)(A)]; and (2) determining complex issues of fact related to the cause or amount of the victim's losses would complicate or prolong the sentencing process to a degree that the need to provide restitution to any victim is outweighed by the burden on the sentencing process [3663A(c)(3)(B)].




Quote
Some of the money was spent on furthering the criminal activity.

Some of the money was paid out to victims in small-dollar checks that the co-schemers misrepresented to be lottery winnings.

The rest of the money was paid out to the co-schemers and others for their own use.

VLEISIDES and the other defendants did not buy any lottery tickets, and the vast majority of the victims lost the money they sent.

The total loss from the scheme is in excess of $19 million.



Quote
Victims of the scheme were directed to send their money to mail drops in Ireland, The Netherlands and other locations, where participants in the scheme returned the money to the United States. From domestic bank accounts controlled by Henry Walther and others, some of the money was sent back to victims who were told that they were receiving “winnings,” even though the “winnings” were far less than the amount of money sent in by victims. The rest of the money was either spent to further the scheme or to enrich the defendants. Investigators estimate that victims lost approximately $20 million during the scheme, which ran for more than 15 years until it was shut down by federal agents in July 2006.

The 23 counts in the indictment carry a maximum statutory penalty of 460 years in federal prison and fines of up to $8.75 million.


Schrankwand
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May 23, 2013, 08:50:17 AM
 #1491

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I very, very strongly believe this to be an outright lie or a misrepresentation*,
as would anyone with even the faintest knowledge of how professional VCs operate.

In one sentence I would summarise it thus: Venture Capital firms do DUE DILLIGENCE.

It is just about the very most important factor considered when investing in a nascent company.

As mean as it sounds, a company run in the upper echelon's with a colourful past as Sonny is unlikely to get bank and VC backing. And as sad as it sounds, a lot of VCs i have met might have said "Good, lets do this. One condition: Fire the fraudster guy."
darkmule
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May 23, 2013, 09:32:22 AM
 #1492

As mean as it sounds, a company run in the upper echelon's with a colourful past as Sonny is unlikely to get bank and VC backing. And as sad as it sounds, a lot of VCs i have met might have said "Good, lets do this. One condition: Fire the fraudster guy."

VCs are already gambling.  Even run by completely legit personnel, a large number of startups (of the type that need VC in the first place) are going to go belly-up before recouping the investment.  Even with advantages like insisting on preferred stock, they may lose their entire investment.  VCs hope to make a profit because when they hit, they hit big.  However, they're expecting to lose sometimes, even the majority of times.  With a limited tolerance for a long streak of failures, they really can't afford to do shit like invest in a company headed by a convicted criminal.  Sure, maybe he's reformed himself, but it's just a bad risk at that point.  Why borrow trouble?

It's kind of moot, though, because even if you found VCs willing to overlook the fact that the guy is a convicted felon, I can't imagine any VCs sitting by idly while the company is represented by a complete raving asshole like Josh Zerlan.  This is the kind of freakish behavior they simply would not tolerate.

That is why I think BFL is lying about VC just like they lie about everything else.  However, if they did have VC, where's the tranches of preferred stock and other things that you'd see in such a situation?  There is no VC in the world who would be dumb enough to get into a partnership and end up legally on the hook for BFL's debts if they end up liable for scamming.  Is BFL even a corporation?
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May 23, 2013, 10:42:43 AM
 #1493

Ive order BFL units and cant wait for it to come in....
EBM
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May 23, 2013, 12:03:20 PM
 #1494

"Private venture capital" is not a proper VC firm, it's a private individual or group using their own money. No due diligence required.

Proper VC firms always declare their investments and terms. So do proper companies taking genuine VC investment...

BFL's website still claims they started shipping in Feb: http://www.butterflylabs.com/bitforce-sc-faq/

Avoid this company like the plague, get your refunds before it vanishes.


MODS: can you check the IP addresses for all these newbies who seem to join the forum purely to sing the praises of BFL...? 

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smokeyrd
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May 23, 2013, 12:23:42 PM
 #1495

I dunno...I think that there's something to be said for a small company designing their own chip. I know from personal experience how frustrating it can be to work with hardware/component manufacturers. While im certainly a bit dubious, I also hear/see what BFL says and recognize that I had many of the same issues they are having.
Ransor
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May 23, 2013, 12:29:08 PM
 #1496

I saw some news today mentioning that Butterflylabs was shipping out more units. I don't agree with the way they have gone about conducting their pre-orders, as it seems very shady, but it looks like they could be starting to deliver on their promises. As more of these ASICs are out in the wild, it will be interesting to see how quickly they devalue.
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May 23, 2013, 12:32:51 PM
 #1497

Ive order BFL units and cant wait for it to come in....

And here you have a practical demonstration about how the preorder scheme is working wonders for BFL.

The fact they are still spending huge amounts in advertising to trap clueless newbies in their scam, regardless of having missed the deadline for at least 7 months, is such a red flag that I really cannot understand how people is still hoping to recover any investment made in BFL units.

HELLNAUT, you better cool off, as you will have to wait for many months (if not years), and what you will receive is not a miner but a beautiful coffee warmer.

jml
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May 23, 2013, 12:46:17 PM
 #1498

"Private venture capital" is not a proper VC firm, it's a private individual or group using their own money. No due diligence required.

Proper VC firms always declare their investments and terms. So do proper companies taking genuine VC investment...

BFL's website still claims they started shipping in Feb: http://www.butterflylabs.com/bitforce-sc-faq/

Avoid this company like the plague, get your refunds before it vanishes.


MODS: can you check the IP addresses for all these newbies who seem to join the forum purely to sing the praises of BFL...? 

That was why I placed my order back then when I ordered a Jalap; BFL stated they would be shipping by January so I thought, well they must be shipping now. I was so wrong, I had to cancel my paypal order because there were more delays and red flags were being raised and the 45 day period was looming. So I took my investment elsewhere.

"Everything is a matter of degree"
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May 23, 2013, 01:18:38 PM
 #1499

Ive order BFL units and cant wait for it to come in....

Well, you can as well burn those money and wait for Sasha Gray and KISS to come and clean your house. (I still think that KISS playing a gig while Sasha Gray would clean it is more reasonable to wish for).
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May 23, 2013, 02:37:52 PM
 #1500

Ive order BFL units and cant wait for it to come in....

Well, you can as well burn those money and wait for Sasha Gray and KISS to come and clean your house. (I still think that KISS playing a gig while Sasha Gray would clean it is more reasonable to wish for).

hahaha,
but still there is no news bout the legit of this
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