Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[jojo69]

I'm keeping my mind open about which strategy is best for Bitcoin in the long term, in terms of a complex mix of decentralization and scalability. I think that it is too early to say for certain, especially since I do not have a deep understanding of the Bitcoin codebase. For example, I couldn't explain to you right now exactly how SegWit works. So for this reason I keep all forks instead of making a guess or going along with the majority.

Jesus

will you just fuck off with this shit?

we have been over and over and OVER this ground ad nauseum

and then you wander in here cold and its all over again

[bones261]

Don't bother arguing with these fools as 99% of them are too lazy to have done any due diligence themselves and just hope that someone else will work on bitcoin and it will somehow make them rich.  From memory, when I did the estimates way back in the day, I think I came up with bitcoin needing 8 MB blocks in the long run to function as a global settlement system where transactions of around $10k or more are viable.

Is 2 MB blocks + LN equal or better to that?  No.  LN is an even more centralized, more permissioned version of bitcoin where they seek to transfer all consumer payments to.  So you theoretically CAN transfer most bitcoin traffic there, but LN doesn't actually have anything in common with bitcoin in the first place.  It's a totally different system.  It's like replacing bitcoin with bitshares and pretending it's the same thing.  But when it comes down to it, bitcoin transaction validators are designed to centralize, nullifying any reason for it's existence, so there's no point in even discussing building any 2nd tier layers on it.

Discussing LN vs bigger blocks is like discussing what color to paint the Titanic.  It's 100% impossible to create a decentralized digital currency where transaction validators don't centralize.

I'm not certain why you constantly belabor this point of decentralization. Satoshi himself already acknowledged this isn't going evolve into a perfectly decentralized system.

The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale.  That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server.  The design supports letting users just be users.  The more burden it is to run a node, the fewer nodes there will be.  Those few nodes will be big server farms.  The rest will be client nodes that only do transactions and don't generate.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=532.msg6306#msg6306
The goal is to not allow any single miner or cartel to gain 51% control over the network. If 51% control is obtained than the system is totally vulnerable and is worth zero as p2p electronic cash.

If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.

[JayJuanGee]

The crypto scene is the most "group think" thing I have ever encountered. Most of it stems from reddit, which is an easy-to-manipulate hive mind. There are even busineses that attempt to sway opinion using paid shills.

LOL, if you hang out here long enough, it will become abundantly clear that there is a multitude of alternative and conflicting opinions expressed here. I mean look at r0ach. A good portion of his posts are definitely not popular, yet a good portion of his posts remain. The moderation on Bitcointalk is actually quite light compared to reddit. Both the btc and Bitcoin thread there appear to be echo chambers.

The only thing I notice here is that everyone seems to hate BCH with a passion. It's understandable. If only there were one single definite strategy for scaling Bitcoin and maintaining decentralization, and therefore no need for multiple competing implementations. Then people wouldn't feel like they have to pick sides and defend their choices like their future depended on it.

No one is picking sides, you diptwat.

Haven't you realized yet that bcash is a disingenuine bitcoin attack vector, and they are not serious about any of their supposed technical criticisms of bitcoin... they merely wanted to create divisiveness and confusion and to pump some project for their egos and own attempted cash grabs.  There is no there, there with bcash.. so get over your bullshit attempts to act like there is some possible legitimacy when it does not exist.  Most people who are half awake realize some variation of those points that I just made, by now, which includes a decent amount of members who are active in this particular thread (except you want to come in here and teach us your nonsense-which has been covered many times in this thread.. so don't try to suggest that you are either smarter than the rest of us or that you are adding some kind of value or bringing up anything new and interesting.. because you are not).   

[JayJuanGee]

some of the big block arguments resonate with me.

Retard

The typical ad hominem response I was expecting. It just proves my point about group think.

Seeing as I am a leftie, I will make it more PC for you.  Differently abled.

Retard or retarded is much better and more descriptive about what is really meant.

I'm retarded for keeping an open mind?

Your position is not an open mind, even if you are trying to present the position as such.. largely for the reasons that I already outlined.. and there may even be some other reasons.. but does not seem necessary to go down that path because it remains your burden to back up your bullshit, nonsense, retarded, position with facts and logic rather than my burden to show why you seem to be lacking (assuming that you really mean what you say rather than either being a paid shill, alt coin pumper or a disingenuine troll).

I'm keeping my mind open about which strategy is best for Bitcoin in the long term, in terms of a complex mix of decentralization and scalability. I think that it is too early to say for certain, especially since I do not have a deep understanding of the Bitcoin codebase. For example, I couldn't explain to you right now exactly how SegWit works. So for this reason I keep all forks instead of making a guess or going along with the majority.

Yeah, not only do you not understand the codebase (as you admit), you also don't seem to understand what differentiates bitcoin from other projects, whether those are forks or altcoins or ICOs or other purported imitator wannabes that fall quite short of the bitcoin mark.. think about sound money and network effects of bitcoin rather than getting caught up on dumb-ass and mostly irrelevant supposed distinctions based on code differences.

[xhomerx10]

Same chart zoomed out showing bear line.  Purple line is long term support from cryptowinter which we broke (ahead of schedule) before our latest drop.  We really should have waited until December before breaking it.  

yup, looks still a bit bearish, but close to exhaustion at least for now.
btw litecoin has already arrived to her "light blue line' during last run. I dont want to use it as leading indicator, but i take a look time to time for clues what to expect at major support lines.
And i hope bitcoin will stay at least one significant support level above ltc, so my potential minimal all-in level is between 2500-3000. but i'll buy some before that. even now im starting to have this fomo feeling

 Bitcoin moon will be as beautiful as
 Z --> Z² + C



Avatar-sized



edit: redo

[fairyvibes]

[kromer]

some of the big block arguments resonate with me.

Retard

The typical ad hominem response I was expecting. It just proves my point about group think.

Seeing as I am a leftie, I will make it more PC for you.  Differently abled.

Retard or retarded is much better and more descriptive about what is really meant.

I'm retarded for keeping an open mind?

Your position is not an open mind, even if you are trying to present the position as such.. largely for the reasons that I already outlined.. and there may even be some other reasons.. but does not seem necessary to go down that path because it remains your burden to back up your bullshit, nonsense, retarded, position with facts and logic rather than my burden to show why you seem to be lacking (assuming that you really mean what you say rather than either being a paid shill, alt coin pumper or a disingenuine troll).

I'm keeping my mind open about which strategy is best for Bitcoin in the long term, in terms of a complex mix of decentralization and scalability. I think that it is too early to say for certain, especially since I do not have a deep understanding of the Bitcoin codebase. For example, I couldn't explain to you right now exactly how SegWit works. So for this reason I keep all forks instead of making a guess or going along with the majority.

Yeah, not only do you not understand the codebase (as you admit), you also don't seem to understand what differentiates bitcoin from other projects, whether those are forks or altcoins or ICOs or other purported imitator wannabes that fall quite short of the bitcoin mark.. think about sound money and network effects of bitcoin rather than getting caught up on dumb-ass and mostly irrelevant supposed distinctions based on code differences.

I'm in Bitcoin more than just for profit. What if what they say about LN trending towards centralization (and therefore government interference and control) comes true? What if BCH does live up to its promise of achieving massive on-chain scalability with low fees within the next few years? These are possibilities I take into account. I used to be a hard core maximalist, but I have changed my stance. It's much more than just bitcoin now, a whole industry is forming. I believe ICOs do have value. They offer anyone in the world a chance to invest in projects they believe in. I don't collect tokens, but there are many projects I respect and are trying to improve the world.

[Toxic2040]

Oopsie.  5M charts for fun and profit.  






... this is a joke.  I don't chart 5M.

5m



Surprisingly un-bearish imo. Have to test resistance at that 0.236 fib.

[HairyMaclairy]

I believe ICOs do have value.

You are going to have a bad time

[centralbanksequalsbombs]

I'm in Bitcoin more than just for profit. What if what they say about LN trending towards centralization (and therefore government interference and control) comes true? What if BCH does live up to its promise of achieving massive on-chain scalability with low fees within the next few years? These are possibilities I take into account. I used to be a hard core maximalist, but I have changed my stance. It's much more than just bitcoin now, a whole industry is forming. I believe ICOs do have value. They offer anyone in the world a chance to invest in projects they believe in. I don't collect tokens, but there are many projects I respect and are trying to improve the world.

Really? Very simple 4 question litmus test:

1) Expain to me, what makes bitcoin decentralized?

2) Why did Segwit 2.0 attack fail on bitcoin?

3) Lightning network, convince me how it is contrary to what you earlier said, free from government interference - explanation? Take a stab, play devils advocate. (tip: talk routing)

4) Why is it, even since 2013, the hundreds of most 'established' altcoins after years, are not nearly as secure nor decentralized as bitcoin?

Simple four questions.

[Toxic2040]

I'm in Bitcoin more than just for profit. What if what they say about LN trending towards centralization (and therefore government interference and control) comes true? What if BCH does live up to its promise of achieving massive on-chain scalability with low fees within the next few years? These are possibilities I take into account. I used to be a hard core maximalist, but I have changed my stance. It's much more than just bitcoin now, a whole industry is forming. I believe ICOs do have value. They offer anyone in the world a chance to invest in projects they believe in. I don't collect tokens, but there are many projects I respect and are trying to improve the world.

Really? Very simple 4 question litmus test:

1) Expain to me, what makes bitcoin decentralized?

2) Why did Segwit 2.0 attack fail on bitcoin?

3) Lightning network, convince me how it is contrary to what you earlier said, free from government interference - explanation? Take a stab, play devils advocate. (tip: talk routing)

4) Why is it, even since 2013, the hundreds of most 'established' altcoins after years, are not nearly as secure nor decentralized as bitcoin?

Simple four questions.

[centralbanksequalsbombs]

...think about sound money and network effects of bitcoin rather than...

Hey JJG, I just realized, you've engaged with a poster here earlier in the week, whom after looking at their other posts on their profile, smells and leans heavily to high-shill factor side. Funny how that poster doesnt bring all that to the WO thread.

You have quite the tolerance level.

[bones261]

Buttcoin is coming to an end.

Perhaps you ought to put together a well thought out post, giving us your reasons for coming to this conclusion. Enlarging your text does not make your warning very compelling.

[Butterscotch Cartman]

I already gave my reasons, this cult has brainwashed people into hodling worthless digital beanie babies.  Most people here lack any common sense.

[kromer]

I'm in Bitcoin more than just for profit. What if what they say about LN trending towards centralization (and therefore government interference and control) comes true? What if BCH does live up to its promise of achieving massive on-chain scalability with low fees within the next few years? These are possibilities I take into account. I used to be a hard core maximalist, but I have changed my stance. It's much more than just bitcoin now, a whole industry is forming. I believe ICOs do have value. They offer anyone in the world a chance to invest in projects they believe in. I don't collect tokens, but there are many projects I respect and are trying to improve the world.

Really? Very simple 4 question litmus test:

1) Expain to me, what makes bitcoin decentralized?

2) Why did Segwit 2.0 attack fail on bitcoin?

3) Lightning network, convince me how it is contrary to what you earlier said, free from government interference - explanation? Take a stab, play devils advocate. (tip: talk routing)

4) Why is it, even since 2013, the hundreds of most 'established' altcoins after years, are not nearly as secure nor decentralized as bitcoin?

Simple four questions.

Your point seems to be that first mover advantage is everything. I agree, when comparing Bitcoin to alt coins. But I don't consider forks of Bitcoin as alt coins. I see them as different implementations trying to reach the same goal.

I have no idea if LN will be free of goverment interference or not. Maybe some countries will force all Bitcoin transactions through government controlled nodes and sending freely on chain would be illegal (enforced by deep packet inspection). I don't think anyone really knows how LN will end up. I hold Bitcoin forks to hedge against the possibility of LN becoming a failure.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I'm in Bitcoin more than just for profit.

Whatever that means.

What if what they say about LN trending towards centralization (and therefore government interference and control) comes true?

Who says?  Seems to show that you are relying on bullshit talking points.

LN remains voluntary and relatively small and experimental....  Long way to know how it is going to evolve and the extent to which it is going to be adopted.  Currently, you can transact directly on bitcoin, so bitcoin seems to be a long way before lightning becomes absorbed as a primary tool in bitcoin (assuming as you do that it becomes some kind of mandatory direction of bitcoin.. which still seems to be a BIG ASS assumption based on current developments).

What if BCH does live up to its promise of achieving massive on-chain scalability with low fees within the next few years?

That's a pretty fucking BIG IF, too, especially since currently bcash seems to be experiencing a pretty decently sized implosion.. and where are the fundamentals in bcash, anyhow?  Do you realize that no one is using bcash, but they still have nonsense talking points about which version within their self-destructive fight is going to take over the world?  Seems a bit farcical to bet on those kinds of long shots that have little to no community besides scammers and c-league players that could not figure out a way to contribute their skills (assuming they have some) in bitcoin?

These are possibilities I take into account.

Well, if something has about a .002184115% chance of happening, hopefully, you are not dedicating more than that resources to such a low odds bet?

I used to be a hard core maximalist, but I have changed my stance.

Yeah, right...     You became open-minded.

Your comments seem to demonstrate that you are stabbing in the dark and getting confused by dumb-ass talking points rather than becoming more enlightened as you seem to want to suggest, by your supposed conversion assertion.

t's much more than just bitcoin now, a whole industry is forming.

Yes..  As I already suggested, If you are trying to position bitcoin as some kind of supposed equivalent project, then you seem to be unable to recognize what bitcoin is actually bringing to the table - and accordingly you seem to becoming distracted by likely snake oil rather than the real deal.

I believe ICOs do have value.

Yes, they might have value... Is anyone saying that they don't?  You seem to be trying to suggest that they have some kind of equivalent position to bitcoin, and therefore, you seem to be out of touch with both giving them way too much weight and failing/refusing (or perhaps unable) to appreciate what is bitcoin.

They offer anyone in the world a chance to invest in projects they believe in.

Great.. good for them.

Go take your discussion to another thread.  This thread is not about all the dumbass ways that you might be able to make money in ICOs and crypto and other coins... If you have some kind of point in connection to bitcoin , then make your fucking point, yet there is no need to be describing all of the supposed value of various ICOs in this thread, when most of the people in this thread don't give a ratt's ass.  If you want to talk about bitcoin, then do it... and take your other shit somewhere else.

I don't collect tokens, but there are many projects I respect and are trying to improve the world.

Ok..  great.   Is anyone disrespecting other projects such as ICOs, here?   They are largely not relevant to this thread, unless you want to present them in terms of bitcoin (which you are not.. you are just making blanket statements and wanting to assume that they are equivalent to bitcoin in some general sense when the likely better assumption is that they are scams unless shown otherwise)...

Anyhow, we have more important matters, here, such as bitcoin / usd price walls to watch and other important matters such as discussions of racial superiority and hats.

[cAPSLOCK]

How much money has Rosewater lost from ATH so far?  

what's a Rosewater

A slightly less prickly version of you.

[Butterscotch Cartman]

mY BeAnIe BaBiEs ArE gOiNg To MaKe Me So RiCh.

[JayJuanGee]

...think about sound money and network effects of bitcoin rather than...

Hey JJG, I just realized, you've engaged with a poster here earlier in the week, whom after looking at their other posts on their profile, smells and leans heavily to high-shill factor side. Funny how that poster doesnt bring all that to the WO thread.

You have quite the tolerance level.

I have a difficult enough time remembering what I posted a few hours ago.  Without a more specific reference, how would I be able to recall what I posted more than a day or two ago?  

[HairyMaclairy]