MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[iikun]

My question about the claims system is "is it possible to switch from Kraken to an individual payout?" 
As a Japan resident, if I can get a btc payout I'm perfectly happy for it to happen thru Kraken. But if it has to be cash, it may be cheaper for me to get that directly. I don't see any info on this in the announcement & Kobayashi acknowledges that he can't yet confirm if btc payouts are possible. Will he be sneaky & try to charge fees for individual cash transfers to Kraken if btc payments are not allowed?

Seems like a cluster**** in the making

[Dargo]

My question about the claims system is "is it possible to switch from Kraken to an individual payout?" 
As a Japan resident, if I can get a btc payout I'm perfectly happy for it to happen thru Kraken. But if it has to be cash, it may be cheaper for me to get that directly. I don't see any info on this in the announcement & Kobayashi acknowledges that he can't yet confirm if btc payouts are possible. Will he be sneaky & try to charge fees for individual cash transfers to Kraken if btc payments are not allowed?

Seems like a cluster**** in the making

It isn't possible to switch in the way you are asking, but there isn't really a need to do it. The way you do the claim doesn't necessarily determine how you get the payout. If you do it direct through the MtGox claims site, you could still get the payout through Kraken, especially if the payout is in the form of bitcoin. If you do the claim through Kraken, you might get the payout in fiat through a different channel. If you get a fiat payout through Kraken you will not need to pay individual fees for transferring the funds to your Kraken account. The only fee would be the fee to withdraw the funds from your Kraken account to your bank account. If a Japan resident is paid in JPY, this withdrawal fee is 300 JPY (about $2.50 USD). If there is another channel for fiat payouts offered by the trustee, it will similarly come with bank fees for transferring the money to your bank account. 

[co5hike]

Why is this thread even being used.. Mtgox is so 2012!

[iikun]

My question about the claims system is "is it possible to switch from Kraken to an individual payout?" 
As a Japan resident, if I can get a btc payout I'm perfectly happy for it to happen thru Kraken. But if it has to be cash, it may be cheaper for me to get that directly. I don't see any info on this in the announcement & Kobayashi acknowledges that he can't yet confirm if btc payouts are possible. Will he be sneaky & try to charge fees for individual cash transfers to Kraken if btc payments are not allowed?

Seems like a cluster**** in the making

It isn't possible to switch in the way you are asking, but there isn't really a need to do it. The way you do the claim doesn't necessarily determine how you get the payout. If you do it direct through the MtGox claims site, you could still get the payout through Kraken, especially if the payout is in the form of bitcoin. If you do the claim through Kraken, you might get the payout in fiat through a different channel. If you get a fiat payout through Kraken you will not need to pay individual fees for transferring the funds to your Kraken account. The only fee would be the fee to withdraw the funds from your Kraken account to your bank account. If a Japan resident is paid in JPY, this withdrawal fee is 300 JPY (about $2.50 USD). If there is another channel for fiat payouts offered by the trustee, it will similarly come with bank fees for transferring the money to your bank account. 

Thanks Dargo, understood. I wasn't aware that Kraken had such cheap fiat withdrawal fees to Jpn. Not quite as low as a regular domestic transfer but not far off. I shall give it some thought

[mgroenouwe]

So if I understand it correctly ALL currencies are converted into JPY with a conversion rate from the date that MtGox went offline. After the deadline for the Bankrupty Claims and after checking all the claims, the trustee calculates a percentage, based on the total available JPY and the total amount of all approved claims.

At an unkown date the trustee will payout the percentage based amount to all affected customers. This amount is in JPY also. If you want to be paid in a different currency, the amount of JPY is converted into that currency with the conversion rate FROM THAT MOMENT (the payout date).

Example
If I would like to be paid out in Bitcoin, an initial conversion rate of $483 is used (correct me if I'm wrong).
Let's say I've 25 Bitcoin and the calculated percentage will be 20%.

Total claim value in dollars: $483 * 25 BTC = $12.075

Payout 20% = $2.415
Conversion into Bitcoin based on initial rate ($483) = 5 BTC
Conversion into Bitcoin based on current rate ($230) = 10.5 BTC


In the future the trustee will ask us again in what curreny we would like to be paid out.
If the above example is correct, the final choice from everyone will depend alot on the Bitcoin conversion price (September 2015?).
If the (near future) Bitcoin price is to high then there is a risk that the trustee has to sell Bitcoins (market/auction)...

Another thing is that if the Bitcoin price will be $800 at the payout date, the trustee will have Bitcoins left in his wallet AFTER all the payouts are done.
On the other hand, if the Bitcoin price stays at the current rate, the trustee hasn't enough Bitcoins in his wallet to payout everyone.

[macsga]

So if I understand it correctly ALL currencies are converted into JPY with a conversion rate from the date that MtGox went offline. After the deadline for the Bankrupty Claims and after checking all the claims, the trustee calculates a percentage, based on the total available JPY and the total amount of all approved claims.

At an unkown date the trustee will payout the percentage based amount to all affected customers. This amount is in JPY also. If you want to be paid in a different currency, the amount of JPY is converted into that currency with the conversion rate FROM THAT MOMENT (the payout date).

Example
If I would like to be paid out in Bitcoin, an initial conversion rate of $483 is used (correct me if I'm wrong).
Let's say I've 25 Bitcoin and the calculated percentage will be 20%.

Total claim value in dollars: $483 * 25 BTC = $12.075

Payout 20% = $2.415
Conversion into Bitcoin based on initial rate ($483) = 5 BTC
Conversion into Bitcoin based on current rate ($230) = 10.5 BTC


In the future the trustee will ask us again in what curreny we would like to be paid out.
If the above example is correct, the final choice from everyone will depend alot on the Bitcoin conversion price (September 2015?).
If the (near future) Bitcoin price is to high then there is a risk that the trustee has to sell Bitcoins (market/auction)...

Another thing is that if the Bitcoin price will be $800 at the payout date, the trustee will have Bitcoins left in his wallet AFTER all the payouts are done.
On the other hand, if the Bitcoin price stays at the current rate, the trustee hasn't enough Bitcoins in his wallet to payout everyone.

This is more complex than it looks. There is an option to obtain BTCs (a fraction) if you owned BTCs back then. It's also doubtful if the prices you claim will be those. For instance, I remember some $150 trading into MtGox back then...

[JorgeStolfi]

There is an option to obtain BTCs (a fraction) if you owned BTCs back then.

AFAIK it is still not certain whether this is legally possible, and whether the judge will approve of it.

It's also doubtful if the prices you claim will be those. For instance, I remember some $150 trading into MtGox back then...

IIRC this detail is defined in the latest documents.  However, it is still not clear how Kobayashi will decide whether the claims are valid.  He has until Sep/2015 to figure those things out.

[Dargo]

Disclaimer: Kraken is only assisting the MtGox trustee and doesn't speak for the trustee, so nothing I say here can be understood as a promise or guarantee about how the claims process will actually work.

So if I understand it correctly ALL currencies are converted into JPY with a conversion rate from the date that MtGox went offline.

For the purposes of the claim form, conversion rates from the day before the start of bankruptcy proceedings are being used to determine how much you are claiming in JPY. For BTC, the the conversion rate is 50,058.12 JPY (equivalent to $483 USD at the time). But keep in mind that these conversion rates are only used to determine the value of your claim in JPY, and do not indicate the actual rates at which currencies are or will be converted.

After the deadline for the Bankrupty Claims and after checking all the claims, the trustee calculates a percentage, based on the total available JPY and the total amount of all approved claims.

At an unkown date the trustee will payout the percentage based amount to all affected customers. This amount is in JPY also. If you want to be paid in a different currency, the amount of JPY is converted into that currency with the conversion rate FROM THAT MOMENT (the payout date).

Example
If I would like to be paid out in Bitcoin, an initial conversion rate of $483 is used (correct me if I'm wrong).
Let's say I've 25 Bitcoin and the calculated percentage will be 20%.

Total claim value in dollars: $483 * 25 BTC = $12.075

Payout 20% = $2.415
Conversion into Bitcoin based on initial rate ($483) = 5 BTC
Conversion into Bitcoin based on current rate ($230) = 10.5 BTC

So far as I know, the trustee hasn't explained how the payout calculations will go, but I think your example is a likely scenario. However, presumably the payout in BTC would be based on the current rate and not the $483 rate. So the payout in your scenario would more likely be the 10.5 BTC amount.

In the future the trustee will ask us again in what curreny we would like to be paid out.
If the above example is correct, the final choice from everyone will depend alot on the Bitcoin conversion price (September 2015?).
If the (near future) Bitcoin price is to high then there is a risk that the trustee has to sell Bitcoins (market/auction)...

Another thing is that if the Bitcoin price will be $800 at the payout date, the trustee will have Bitcoins left in his wallet AFTER all the payouts are done.
On the other hand, if the Bitcoin price stays at the current rate, the trustee hasn't enough Bitcoins in his wallet to payout everyone.

Presumably the full remaining value of the MtGox estate will be distributed with each creditor getting their share. The bitcoin price used for the distribution just determines what the remaining value of the estate is (measured in fiat). So everyone who files a legitimate claim should get paid and there shouldn't be bitcoin or any other funds left over (except maybe if there are remaining expenses that will need to be paid). It might turn out, though, that the trustee can't accommodate everyone's preference for BTC or fiat payout without buying or selling some bitcoins.

Arguably the best choice for creditors is a BTC payout regardless of price. The reason is that the majority of the MtGox estate is in the form of bitcoin (around 75% at current price), so creditors have an interest in supporting BTC price. If not enough creditors ask for a BTC payout, the trustee may decide to just liquidate all the bitcoins, either by auction or on the open market. Selling such a large block of coins is very likely to have a significant negative impact on price and therefore a negative impact on the remaining value of the MtGox estate. If anything, it would be better for supporting the value of the estate if so many creditors asked for a BTC payout that the trustee felt pressure to liquidate the fiat by converting it to BTC for payout. I'm sure some creditors have good reason to prefer a fiat payout, but they should keep in mind that a request to get paid in fiat is essentially a request to have the trustee liquidate their bitcoins and this may have a significant negative impact on the return value they get.

[JorgeStolfi]

If anything, it would be better for supporting the value of the estate if so many creditors asked for a BTC payout that the trustee felt pressure to liquidate the fiat by converting it to BTC for payout.

I find it extremely unlikely that Kobayashi will buy bitcoins as a favor to creditors, to save them the work of buying BTC on their own.  He will not buy EUR or USD to satisfy those who prefer those currencies; why would he do that for BTC?  For one thing, if he were to get a bad deal while doing so, he would expose himself to lawsuits from the losing creditors.

Kobayashi is considering the possibility of distributing the BTC as BTC only because converting BTC to JPY would be a lot more work and risk than converting EUR and USD to JPY (which he will surely do).  BTC payouts still require agreement from the court, however, since by law and tradition he would have to convert everything to JPY.  

By the way, suppose that, by the September deadline, the approved claims times the reduction factor would require distributing (say) 6 billion yen (G¥), and the clients state that their prefernces are 3 G¥ in JPY and 3 G¥ in BTC.  But the assets he has are 1 G¥ in JPY and 5 G¥ in BTC.  What will he do?  He cannot force users who want JPY to take BTC...

[Dargo]

If anything, it would be better for supporting the value of the estate if so many creditors asked for a BTC payout that the trustee felt pressure to liquidate the fiat by converting it to BTC for payout.

I find it extremely unlikely that Kobayashi will buy bitcoins as a favor to creditors, to save them the work of buying BTC on their own.  He will not buy EUR or USD to satisfy those who prefer those currencies; why would he do that for BTC?  For one thing, if he were to get a bad deal while doing so, he would expose himself to lawsuits from the losing creditors.

Kobayashi is considering the possibility of distributing the BTC as BTC only because converting BTC to JPY would be a lot more work and risk than converting EUR and USD to JPY (which he will surely do).  BTC payouts still require agreement from the court, however, since by law and tradition he would have to convert everything to JPY.  

By the way, suppose that, by the September deadline, the approved claims times the reduction factor would require distributing (say) 6 billion yen (G¥), and the clients state that their prefernces are 3 G¥ in JPY and 3 G¥ in BTC.  But the assets he has are 1 G¥ in JPY and 5 G¥ in BTC.  What will he do?  He cannot force users who want JPY to take BTC...

Good points - I agree that it is extremely unlikely that bitcoins might be bought. I think all or most other currencies have been converted to JPY by now. You may be right that Kobayashi will not buy EUR or USD, but if so that will be unfortunate for creditors. Most US banks will probably take a deposit in JPY, but they will need to convert it to USD and probably don't offer very favorable terms for this, with bad exchange rates and possibly additional fees. I agree that Kobayashi would not force users who request JPY to take BTC, but unfortunately he might force users who request BTC to take JPY (citing Japanese law to justify it).

   

[mgroenouwe]

In my opinion the trustee isn't going to buy or sell any Bitcoins, because of the Japanese law and all the work which comes with it. Buying a not recognized currency is ruled out I guess (unlawfull/working with the devil). Selling, maybe, but if he can solve it the easy way...

The easiest way to avoid buying/selling is to payout everybody in both JPY and BTC, no exceptions. A percentage of the overall percentage. But payout everybody in JPY is alot of work...
Or maybe a percentage in BTC and the remainder in JPY only if the trustee doesn't have enough BTC (avoid buying).

If he can payout everyone who choose for payout in BTC, then he will have a remainder which he has to sell.
If he can't payout everyone who choose for payout in BTC, it won't be fair to payout some people in BTC and others in JPY.

At this point the trustee can't make a choice, even if he wants to...


And what about the GOXBTC at Bitcoin Builder? The owner of that site would not be very happy either if the trustee chooses to payout both JPY and BTC.
Does anybody actually know if Bitcoin Builder filled a (BTC) claim already?


I was just thinking of something else: Is it theoretically possible to get more then 100% back?
(Bitcoin price at $800 (or even higher) and not all Bitcoins claimed due to different kind of reasons).

[macsga]

And what about the GOXBTC at Bitcoin Builder? The owner of that site would not be very happy either if the trustee chooses to payout both JPY and BTC.
Does anybody actually know if Bitcoin Builder filled a (BTC) claim already?

Fair point; but I don't think that the Bitcoin Builder has any legitimate proof that (all of) his claimings were valid. AFAIK, many of the alleged "clients" may have been people with "virtual" BTCs (ie: non verifiable accounts). Who could know such an information for sure? Well, that would've been only the trustee.

Anyway, we're just hypothesizing here and I don't think that any of Jorge's claims is bolder than mgroenouwe's or Dargo's ones for that matter. I guess we will have to wait until September, even though I tend to believe that no BTC sales will occur for the reasons that Dargo has mentioned.

In any way, Dargo and Kraken should be the first ones to know.

[Amitabh S]

I was just thinking of something else: Is it theoretically possible to get more then 100% back?
(Bitcoin price at $800 (or even higher) and not all Bitcoins claimed due to different kind of reasons).

Theoretically it is possible but why would they pay out more bitcoins? Won't happen.

And its almost certain that not all bitcoins will be claimed. 

[JorgeStolfi]

I was just thinking of something else: Is it theoretically possible to get more then 100% back?
(Bitcoin price at $800 (or even higher) and not all Bitcoins claimed due to different kind of reasons).

Theoretically it is possible but why would they pay out more bitcoins? Won't happen.

And its almost certain that not all bitcoins will be claimed. 

If 80% of the balances go unclaimed, or their claims are disqualified for some reason, then the victims who remain in the game could get 100% back.

The claim period just closed, correct?  If so, then perhaps Kobayashi will issue a note with the statistics.

What data and documents were required to submit a claim?

[macsga]

I was just thinking of something else: Is it theoretically possible to get more then 100% back?
(Bitcoin price at $800 (or even higher) and not all Bitcoins claimed due to different kind of reasons).

Theoretically it is possible but why would they pay out more bitcoins? Won't happen.

And its almost certain that not all bitcoins will be claimed. 

If 80% of the balances go unclaimed, or their claims are disqualified for some reason, then the victims who remain in the game could get 100% back.

The claim period just closed, correct?  If so, then perhaps Kobayashi will issue a note with the statistics.

What data and documents were required to submit a claim?

For verified members it was a pretty straightforward procedure. It was all automated and required no extra paperwork if you knew/remembered your login info to the original MtGox site. I personally went with my claiming via Kraken. Thought it was better than going all over this as a single owner.

[Amitabh S]

I tried claiming but couldn't login and didn't get a password reset mail. (I didn't have anything there, but wanted to see the process)

Can anyone explain how the process was, at what stage it is currently at and how much have you got back?

[JorgeStolfi]

I tried claiming but couldn't login and didn't get a password reset mail. (I didn't have anything there, but wanted to see the process)

Can anyone explain how the process was, at what stage it is currently at and how much have you got back?

The period for filing claims ended today, May 29, Japan time.  The claims will now be evaluated by the trustee, and he has until September 29 or thereabouts to decide which are valid and how much each client will actually get back.

[spud21]

I tried claiming but couldn't login and didn't get a password reset mail. (I didn't have anything there, but wanted to see the process)

Can anyone explain how the process was, at what stage it is currently at and how much have you got back?

It might still be possible to claim through the Kraken after the May 29th deadline according to this post.

There are statements from the Kraken support which point in this direction. But I would not count on it blindly.
All depends on the trustee and the court.

Kraken will be accepting applications past the May 29th (Japan time) deadline and we do expect the trustee/court to be flexible about accepting late claims. I think you can trust that a slightly late claim will be accepted, but shouldn't count on the idea that you can submit it weeks late and still have it accepted. So no need to panic about the exact deadline or resort to an offline claim, but get your claim submitted as soon as possible to be safe. 

This thread explains how to claim through the Kraken.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1062437.0

[macsga]

I too expected some deadline flexibility like Dargo has already posted (thanks for the link btw) but wouldn't bet on a 100% successful claim after 1-2 weeks time. If you're up to it, don't push your luck - it's time to rush. I would again recommend the Kraken site, since it's the best chance we'll get (a fraction) of our bitcoins back.

[Blazed]

I filed my claim the day it opened via Kraken. Do you guys really think we will get a single satoshi back from this? I am not holding my breath....