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Author Topic: Official Anoncoin chat thread (including history)  (Read 530463 times)
DiCE1904
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September 04, 2013, 01:38:32 AM
 #441

Any news in the world of ANC? Amongst the altcoins ANC seems to be holding up fairly well in a rather bearish market.

New client (and codebase) soon ready for deployment. Also testing some possible services we have developed/set up. (maybe VPN with access to TOR/I2P sites transparent, and anonymous poker. The vpn is in testing now, how good it scales etc.) I won't say more for sure before I can promise it. However, this is the first "announcement" of it. Just been talked on IRC about it earlier  Smiley

One of the developers of zerocoin replied to one of our tweets, so I'm gonna write a mail to him and see what we can do with zerocoin.

On the other hand it's a little talk about maybe implement CoinJoin as well, intregrated in a way that it is in no need of a external server, but can lookup "rooms" within the client, distributed by the client itself.. Also, this is just me telling what's been mentioned on IRC, no public statement.

Zerocoin would require for example a DHT system anyway, because the 'coin spend' zero knowledge proofs are somewhat too large for the blockchain itself.

I'll update this thread when I know more  Smiley

That's exactly what I was wanting to hear, and that's exactly the kind of services a *real* cryptocurrency needs! Exciting stuff!


I agree, very very exciting stuff!

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September 04, 2013, 02:13:23 PM
 #442

Why does the OSX version not work?
openssl linking.

The Anoncoin-Qt executable clearly points to the right directory.
Code:
	@executable_path/../Frameworks/libssl.1.0.0.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)
@executable_path/../Frameworks/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)

However, it still try to look for libssl.1.0.0.dylib and libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib in /opt/local/lib, which is a macports directory.

Easy workaround for the OSX version until openssl is fixed

Open the Terminal.app application. You find it under Applications -> Utilities

This assumes that you got Anoncoin-Qt.app installed in your Applications folder.

Then type the following commands:
Code:
sudo mkdir -p /opt/local/lib
sudo ln -sf /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib /opt/local/lib/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib
sudo ln -sf /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libssl.1.0.0.dylib  /opt/local/lib/libssl.1.0.0.dylib

Note: You will be asked for your mac account password to do administrative operations.. sudo = "Super user(Administrator) do"

The first command will create the folder, the two next will make a "shortcut/link" to the libraries inside Anoncoin-Qt.app.

I removed my /opt/local/lib/ folder temporary, then I did the commands above and Anoncoin opens.

Other news

I plan release new binaries tomorrow. Probably for all Operating Systems. Including Linux (i386/x64)

I hope the Mac OS X version is fixed by then, if not, the workaround above should fix it without any need of extra installation of applications etc. And should take no disk space at all. Sorry for this problem. If the next build won't fix it, we'll continue until it works Smiley

to do this does mac ports need to be installed? because im still getting
Quote
Dyld Error Message:
  Library not loaded: libboost_system.dylib
  Referenced from: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libboost_filesystem.dylib
  Reason: image not found

Hmm.. That file is there, just double checked the dmg file.

Try:

Code:
sudo cp /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /opt/local/


Hi. I tried these but I'm still unable to run the mac client, same error
BroTroxer
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September 04, 2013, 05:01:52 PM
 #443

Why does the OSX version not work?
openssl linking.

The Anoncoin-Qt executable clearly points to the right directory.
Code:
	@executable_path/../Frameworks/libssl.1.0.0.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)
@executable_path/../Frameworks/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)

However, it still try to look for libssl.1.0.0.dylib and libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib in /opt/local/lib, which is a macports directory.

Easy workaround for the OSX version until openssl is fixed

Open the Terminal.app application. You find it under Applications -> Utilities

This assumes that you got Anoncoin-Qt.app installed in your Applications folder.

Then type the following commands:
Code:
sudo mkdir -p /opt/local/lib
sudo ln -sf /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib /opt/local/lib/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib
sudo ln -sf /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libssl.1.0.0.dylib  /opt/local/lib/libssl.1.0.0.dylib

Note: You will be asked for your mac account password to do administrative operations.. sudo = "Super user(Administrator) do"

The first command will create the folder, the two next will make a "shortcut/link" to the libraries inside Anoncoin-Qt.app.

I removed my /opt/local/lib/ folder temporary, then I did the commands above and Anoncoin opens.

Other news

I plan release new binaries tomorrow. Probably for all Operating Systems. Including Linux (i386/x64)

I hope the Mac OS X version is fixed by then, if not, the workaround above should fix it without any need of extra installation of applications etc. And should take no disk space at all. Sorry for this problem. If the next build won't fix it, we'll continue until it works Smiley

to do this does mac ports need to be installed? because im still getting
Quote
Dyld Error Message:
  Library not loaded: libboost_system.dylib
  Referenced from: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libboost_filesystem.dylib
  Reason: image not found

Hmm.. That file is there, just double checked the dmg file.

Try:

Code:
sudo cp /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /opt/local/


Hi. I tried these but I'm still unable to run the mac client, same error

Hi, I've been battling this issue myself using Mac OS X 10.8.x. There does not seem to be any perfect solution but could you try this one? I believe this is what solved it on my install.

Code:
sudo mkdir -p /opt/local/lib
sudo cp /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /usr/lib/
sudo ln -sf /usr/lib/ /opt/local/lib/
meeh (OP)
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September 04, 2013, 06:28:40 PM
 #444

RE: OSX

I've started a new build environment for Mac OS X, hoping to solve this now.


--

Other news,

Patched the master-0.8 with some bitcoin patches
* Made RPC password resistant to timing attacks, CVE-2013-4165. Thanks to Gavin.
* Fixed a issue so the client now only create signatures with even S, and verification mode to check. Thanks to Sipa.

DiCE1904
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September 04, 2013, 11:23:23 PM
Last edit: September 05, 2013, 01:40:18 AM by DiCE1904
 #445

Why does the OSX version not work?
openssl linking.

The Anoncoin-Qt executable clearly points to the right directory.
Code:
	@executable_path/../Frameworks/libssl.1.0.0.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)
@executable_path/../Frameworks/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)

However, it still try to look for libssl.1.0.0.dylib and libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib in /opt/local/lib, which is a macports directory.

Easy workaround for the OSX version until openssl is fixed

Open the Terminal.app application. You find it under Applications -> Utilities

This assumes that you got Anoncoin-Qt.app installed in your Applications folder.

Then type the following commands:
Code:
sudo mkdir -p /opt/local/lib
sudo ln -sf /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib /opt/local/lib/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib
sudo ln -sf /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libssl.1.0.0.dylib  /opt/local/lib/libssl.1.0.0.dylib

Note: You will be asked for your mac account password to do administrative operations.. sudo = "Super user(Administrator) do"

The first command will create the folder, the two next will make a "shortcut/link" to the libraries inside Anoncoin-Qt.app.

I removed my /opt/local/lib/ folder temporary, then I did the commands above and Anoncoin opens.

Other news

I plan release new binaries tomorrow. Probably for all Operating Systems. Including Linux (i386/x64)

I hope the Mac OS X version is fixed by then, if not, the workaround above should fix it without any need of extra installation of applications etc. And should take no disk space at all. Sorry for this problem. If the next build won't fix it, we'll continue until it works Smiley

to do this does mac ports need to be installed? because im still getting
Quote
Dyld Error Message:
  Library not loaded: libboost_system.dylib
  Referenced from: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libboost_filesystem.dylib
  Reason: image not found

Hmm.. That file is there, just double checked the dmg file.

Try:

Code:
sudo cp /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /opt/local/


Hi. I tried these but I'm still unable to run the mac client, same error

Hi, I've been battling this issue myself using Mac OS X 10.8.x. There does not seem to be any perfect solution but could you try this one? I believe this is what solved it on my install.

Code:
sudo mkdir -p /opt/local/lib
sudo cp /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /usr/lib/
sudo ln -sf /usr/lib/ /opt/local/lib/


interesting, i tried the code that you posted and got this:

Quote
sudo cp /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /usr/lib/
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtCore.framework is a directory (not copied).
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtGui.framework is a directory (not copied).
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtNetwork.framework is a directory (not copied).


but then Anoncoin opened!
Hopefully it is able to download the full block chain


Actually now nothing else will open except Anoncoin.

everything crashes and gives me the error:
Quote
Dyld Error Message:
  Library not loaded: /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib
  Referenced from: /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit
  Reason: no suitable image found.  Did find:
   /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib: mach-o, but wrong architecture
   /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib: mach-o, but wrong architecture

BroTroxer
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September 05, 2013, 07:53:17 AM
 #446

Why does the OSX version not work?
openssl linking.

The Anoncoin-Qt executable clearly points to the right directory.
Code:
	@executable_path/../Frameworks/libssl.1.0.0.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)
@executable_path/../Frameworks/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)

However, it still try to look for libssl.1.0.0.dylib and libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib in /opt/local/lib, which is a macports directory.

Easy workaround for the OSX version until openssl is fixed

Open the Terminal.app application. You find it under Applications -> Utilities

This assumes that you got Anoncoin-Qt.app installed in your Applications folder.

Then type the following commands:
Code:
sudo mkdir -p /opt/local/lib
sudo ln -sf /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib /opt/local/lib/libcrypto.1.0.0.dylib
sudo ln -sf /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libssl.1.0.0.dylib  /opt/local/lib/libssl.1.0.0.dylib

Note: You will be asked for your mac account password to do administrative operations.. sudo = "Super user(Administrator) do"

The first command will create the folder, the two next will make a "shortcut/link" to the libraries inside Anoncoin-Qt.app.

I removed my /opt/local/lib/ folder temporary, then I did the commands above and Anoncoin opens.

Other news

I plan release new binaries tomorrow. Probably for all Operating Systems. Including Linux (i386/x64)

I hope the Mac OS X version is fixed by then, if not, the workaround above should fix it without any need of extra installation of applications etc. And should take no disk space at all. Sorry for this problem. If the next build won't fix it, we'll continue until it works Smiley

to do this does mac ports need to be installed? because im still getting
Quote
Dyld Error Message:
  Library not loaded: libboost_system.dylib
  Referenced from: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/libboost_filesystem.dylib
  Reason: image not found

Hmm.. That file is there, just double checked the dmg file.

Try:

Code:
sudo cp /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /opt/local/


Hi. I tried these but I'm still unable to run the mac client, same error

Hi, I've been battling this issue myself using Mac OS X 10.8.x. There does not seem to be any perfect solution but could you try this one? I believe this is what solved it on my install.

Code:
sudo mkdir -p /opt/local/lib
sudo cp /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /usr/lib/
sudo ln -sf /usr/lib/ /opt/local/lib/


interesting, i tried the code that you posted and got this:

Quote
sudo cp /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /usr/lib/
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtCore.framework is a directory (not copied).
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtGui.framework is a directory (not copied).
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtNetwork.framework is a directory (not copied).


but then Anoncoin opened!
Hopefully it is able to download the full block chain


Actually now nothing else will open except Anoncoin.

everything crashes and gives me the error:
Quote
Dyld Error Message:
  Library not loaded: /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib
  Referenced from: /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit
  Reason: no suitable image found.  Did find:
   /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib: mach-o, but wrong architecture
   /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib: mach-o, but wrong architecture

Sorry, my bad. I didn't notice other apps crashing until you informed of this issue. I experience the same behavior. Here's a quick fix for you. It will restore the overwritten libz files for 10.8.4. I just checked that the crashing apps, and anoncoin wallet works as they should after restoring these files.

Code:
cd --
mkdir librestore
cd librestore
curl -O http://home.himolde.no/~romfo/lib.tar.gz
tar -xjf lib.tar.gz
sudo cp usr/lib/libz.* /usr/lib/
BroTroxer
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September 05, 2013, 08:27:07 AM
 #447

This post sums up the temporary fix for OS X 10.8.x until a compatible release is out.

If Anoncoin-Qt crashes at launch on Mac OS X 10.8.x follow these steps.

Code:
sudo mkdir -p /opt/local/lib
sudo cp -n /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /usr/lib/
sudo ln -sf /usr/lib/ /opt/local/lib/

The output should say:
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtCore.framework is a directory (not copied).
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtGui.framework is a directory (not copied).
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtNetwork.framework is a directory (not copied).

You should now be able to start Anoncoin-Qt.


In case you tried an early fix you might have an issue with other apps crashing with the output shown below:

Quote
Dyld Error Message:
  Library not loaded: /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib
  Referenced from: /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit
  Reason: no suitable image found.  Did find:
   /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib: mach-o, but wrong architecture
   /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib: mach-o, but wrong architecture

To fix this issue, go through these steps.

Code:
cd --
mkdir librestore
cd librestore
curl -O http://home.himolde.no/~romfo/lib.tar.gz
tar -xjf lib.tar.gz
sudo cp usr/lib/libz.* /usr/lib/
K1773R
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September 05, 2013, 10:02:28 AM
 #448

This post sums up the temporary fix for OS X 10.8.x until a compatible release is out.

If Anoncoin-Qt crashes at launch on Mac OS X 10.8.x follow these steps.

Code:
sudo mkdir -p /opt/local/lib
sudo cp -n /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /usr/lib/
sudo ln -sf /usr/lib/ /opt/local/lib/

The output should say:
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtCore.framework is a directory (not copied).
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtGui.framework is a directory (not copied).
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtNetwork.framework is a directory (not copied).

You should now be able to start Anoncoin-Qt.


In case you tried an early fix you might have an issue with other apps crashing with the output shown below:

Quote
Dyld Error Message:
  Library not loaded: /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib
  Referenced from: /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit
  Reason: no suitable image found.  Did find:
   /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib: mach-o, but wrong architecture
   /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib: mach-o, but wrong architecture

To fix this issue, go through these steps.

Code:
cd --
mkdir librestore
cd librestore
curl -O http://home.himolde.no/~romfo/lib.tar.gz
tar -xjf lib.tar.gz
sudo cp usr/lib/libz.* /usr/lib/
why not cp -R ? is it intentionally that those 3 folders arrent copied over?

[GPG Public Key]
BTC/DVC/TRC/FRC: 1K1773RbXRZVRQSSXe9N6N2MUFERvrdu6y ANC/XPM AK1773RTmRKtvbKBCrUu95UQg5iegrqyeA NMC: NK1773Rzv8b4ugmCgX789PbjewA9fL9Dy1 LTC: LKi773RBuPepQH8E6Zb1ponoCvgbU7hHmd EMC: EK1773RxUes1HX1YAGMZ1xVYBBRUCqfDoF BQC: bK1773R1APJz4yTgRkmdKQhjhiMyQpJgfN
meeh (OP)
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September 05, 2013, 10:06:10 AM
 #449

why not cp -R ? is it intentionally that those 3 folders arrent copied over?

Apparently not needed in 10.8 on that path. I guess Qt work as it should, however libz and openssl seems to be the problem atm.

Anyway cp -R too would do the trick too Smiley

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September 05, 2013, 12:52:09 PM
 #450

This post sums up the temporary fix for OS X 10.8.x until a compatible release is out.

If Anoncoin-Qt crashes at launch on Mac OS X 10.8.x follow these steps.

Code:
sudo mkdir -p /opt/local/lib
sudo cp -n /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/* /usr/lib/
sudo ln -sf /usr/lib/ /opt/local/lib/

The output should say:
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtCore.framework is a directory (not copied).
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtGui.framework is a directory (not copied).
cp: /Applications/Anoncoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtNetwork.framework is a directory (not copied).

You should now be able to start Anoncoin-Qt.


In case you tried an early fix you might have an issue with other apps crashing with the output shown below:

Quote
Dyld Error Message:
  Library not loaded: /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib
  Referenced from: /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit
  Reason: no suitable image found.  Did find:
   /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib: mach-o, but wrong architecture
   /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib: mach-o, but wrong architecture

To fix this issue, go through these steps.

Code:
cd --
mkdir librestore
cd librestore
curl -O http://home.himolde.no/~romfo/lib.tar.gz
tar -xjf lib.tar.gz
sudo cp usr/lib/libz.* /usr/lib/
why not cp -R ? is it intentionally that those 3 folders arrent copied over?

Yes intentional as they are not needed in /opt/local/lib/. We mainly need the libboost* and openssl* dylib files. libz should NOT be overwritten (hence the cp -n correction) as it destroys most other 3rd party apps running on mac os.
Not easy to tame the mountain lion.
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September 06, 2013, 11:38:04 AM
 #451

Got the mac version to open, thank you very much  Grin

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September 06, 2013, 03:50:42 PM
 #452

Got the mac version to open, thank you very much  Grin

Excellent. It is our pleasure to be of assistance when we get such great feedback on the issues/errors. We thank you for your patience in resolving this matter.
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September 10, 2013, 07:52:03 AM
 #453

how far is your zerocoin implementation?
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September 10, 2013, 11:03:39 AM
 #454

how far is your zerocoin implementation?

Was just coming here to ask the same thing. Any updates?

http://nem.io/
XEM: NBT6RQ-B2K3DN-EB3BDF-TUE3FT-SBDCJJ-L4PCX5-GKL6
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September 10, 2013, 07:13:44 PM
 #455

how far is your zerocoin implementation?

Was just coming here to ask the same thing. Any updates?

It's still in an early stage. The first part will be implementing the early alpha of Zerocoin into the Anoncoin testnet, then comes the testing to discover bugs within Zerocoin itself that the Zerocoin devs will be working on. I would not expect a fully working zerocoin implementation until the end of the year at best. If it works flawlessly the first time around (personally I believe there's a ~1% chance of that happening) it would probably be complete during november.
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September 10, 2013, 07:30:56 PM
 #456

how far is your zerocoin implementation?

Was just coming here to ask the same thing. Any updates?

It's still in an early stage. The first part will be implementing the early alpha of Zerocoin into the Anoncoin testnet, then comes the testing to discover bugs within Zerocoin itself that the Zerocoin devs will be working on. I would not expect a fully working zerocoin implementation until the end of the year at best. If it works flawlessly the first time around (personally I believe there's a ~1% chance of that happening) it would probably be complete during november.
I wish you luck on the implementation of Zerocoin into Anoncoin! I'd be happy to be a beta-tester for you!
Also, I notice that on http://faucet.anoncoin.net that it tells us how many nodes are online (top-right corner). Is it possible to have a page that gives us a list of nodes that are online to connect to? I would find that very helpful to get more peers when connections are low! Smiley
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September 10, 2013, 07:46:43 PM
 #457

how far is your zerocoin implementation?

Was just coming here to ask the same thing. Any updates?

It's still in an early stage. The first part will be implementing the early alpha of Zerocoin into the Anoncoin testnet, then comes the testing to discover bugs within Zerocoin itself that the Zerocoin devs will be working on. I would not expect a fully working zerocoin implementation until the end of the year at best. If it works flawlessly the first time around (personally I believe there's a ~1% chance of that happening) it would probably be complete during november.
I wish you luck on the implementation of Zerocoin into Anoncoin! I'd be happy to be a beta-tester for you!
Also, I notice that on http://faucet.anoncoin.net that it tells us how many nodes are online (top-right corner). Is it possible to have a page that gives us a list of nodes that are online to connect to? I would find that very helpful to get more peers when connections are low! Smiley

Thanks, we sure do appreciate all resources contributed to the project. I will send you a notice when the alpha/beta testing begins.
Great idea. I can't promise it will be up and running right away as everyone is busy at the moment, but we'll look into getting a list of active nodes up and running asap.
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September 10, 2013, 07:50:57 PM
 #458

how far is your zerocoin implementation?

Was just coming here to ask the same thing. Any updates?

It's still in an early stage. The first part will be implementing the early alpha of Zerocoin into the Anoncoin testnet, then comes the testing to discover bugs within Zerocoin itself that the Zerocoin devs will be working on. I would not expect a fully working zerocoin implementation until the end of the year at best. If it works flawlessly the first time around (personally I believe there's a ~1% chance of that happening) it would probably be complete during november.
I wish you luck on the implementation of Zerocoin into Anoncoin! I'd be happy to be a beta-tester for you!
Also, I notice that on http://faucet.anoncoin.net that it tells us how many nodes are online (top-right corner). Is it possible to have a page that gives us a list of nodes that are online to connect to? I would find that very helpful to get more peers when connections are low! Smiley

Thanks, we sure do appreciate all resources contributed to the project. I will send you a notice when the alpha/beta testing begins.
Great idea. I can't promise it will be up and running right away as everyone is busy at the moment, but we'll look into getting a list of active nodes up and running asap.
I will PM you when I find some time about ideas on contributing to the project...
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September 10, 2013, 09:11:09 PM
 #459



Zerocoin happening already!?
 https://github.com/meeh420/anoncoin/tree/master-0.8/zerocoin


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September 10, 2013, 10:37:07 PM
 #460

This + CoinJoin is the reason I sold all MEC Wink
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