Official Anoncoin chat thread (including history)

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[1714832786]

1714832786

[WDL]

Are all anon coins dead with Monero now? Bytecoin being a scam even if the tech is good, Zerocoin being a joke by having to trust a 3rd party to destroy the key which would lead to infinite spending without anyone ever knowing, or Darkcoin with the false promises of ring signatures (When this already works with Monero) + instamine.

CryptoNote technology (including BitMonero, BCN, etc.) is an interesting approach for increasing privacy, but Zerocoin provides better (i.e., proven to be perfect) anonymity.

In CryptoNote, the user decides how many people will participate in the ring signature: the more that are used, the more difficult it is to track transaction histories in the blockchain. However, even if this form of anonymity is good enough for most people today, blockchain analysis techniques are likely to become very sophisticated in the coming years. If you value your privacy, or if you have something to hide, the only truly anonymous solutions at this point are Zerocoin and Zerocash.

Ring signatures, CoinJoin ("darksend"), and stealth addresses are not perfect. If you use them, you do so at your own risk. I admit that these are the best solutions that are implemented in code today, but the anonymous altcoin scene will change dramatically before the year is over.

Also, Zerocoin (the original paper) does not need to trust a third party: As Gnosis has described elsewhere, this can be accomplished using RSA-UFOs. It is not clear to me if the same thing applies to Zerocash: Gnosis says no, but I would like to hear his opinion now that the paper is published.

I appreciate your opinion.Only mathematics can be trusted and that is Zero-Knowledge-Proof.

[lunokhod2]

For info, here is a response I got from gnosis on redit about a couple of questions I had.

///

I have read the Zerocash paper and while it has some very cool ideas, it has one serious weakness: the requirement for a trusted setup. This makes it not much better than a coin laundry like Bitfog: the owner of a coin laundry can steal everyone's coins if they so choose, and the same possibility exists with all the anonymized money in circulation in Zerocash. The only strategy to reduce a user's risk is to reduce the time their money is anonymized, but that reduces anonymity.
Anyway, to answer your questions:

1. Will it be possible to use zero-knowledge-SNARKs to reduce the size of the zerocoin proof? The authors of the paper are not too clear on this point.
Probably not.

2. Will it be possible to choose the initial setup parameters for zerocash without relying on trusted third parties, such as with RSA-UFOs as has been proposed for Anoncoin's version of zerocoin?
Probably not for years. This would be a major breakthrough if cryptographers could find a way to do this.

3. It is my understanding that the total amount encoded into zerocash can not be calculated, as the amount is hidden in the zerocash coin commitment. Would it be possible to create new coins (or perhaps double spend) without getting caught if the initial setup parameters were known? Or would this just let the person steal existing zerocash coins?
Yes, the former. If the entity who setup the initial parameters was dishonest and did not delete the data they were supposed to delete, they could create new money without being detected. The currency would experience massive inflation.

///

If its really possible to setup the original Zerocoin protocol without trust, but not Zerocash, then I think that Anoncoin will have much more to offer than other competing coins...

[Spekulatius]

For info, here is a response I got from gnosis on redit about a couple of questions I had.

///

I have read the Zerocash paper and while it has some very cool ideas, it has one serious weakness: the requirement for a trusted setup. This makes it not much better than a coin laundry like Bitfog: the owner of a coin laundry can steal everyone's coins if they so choose, and the same possibility exists with all the anonymized money in circulation in Zerocash. The only strategy to reduce a user's risk is to reduce the time their money is anonymized, but that reduces anonymity.
Anyway, to answer your questions:

1. Will it be possible to use zero-knowledge-SNARKs to reduce the size of the zerocoin proof? The authors of the paper are not too clear on this point.
Probably not.

2. Will it be possible to choose the initial setup parameters for zerocash without relying on trusted third parties, such as with RSA-UFOs as has been proposed for Anoncoin's version of zerocoin?
Probably not for years. This would be a major breakthrough if cryptographers could find a way to do this.

3. It is my understanding that the total amount encoded into zerocash can not be calculated, as the amount is hidden in the zerocash coin commitment. Would it be possible to create new coins (or perhaps double spend) without getting caught if the initial setup parameters were known? Or would this just let the person steal existing zerocash coins?
Yes, the former. If the entity who setup the initial parameters was dishonest and did not delete the data they were supposed to delete, they could create new money without being detected. The currency would experience massive inflation.

///

If its really possible to setup the original Zerocoin protocol without trust, but not Zerocash, then I think that Anoncoin will have much more to offer than other competing coins...

I dont get it: are all your questions regarding Zerocash? Its seems question number 1 at least is ambiguous. Will it be possible for Anoncoin to reduce the Zerocoin proof? If not, arent we doomed to blockchain bloat Anoncoin out of existence?
Whats the difficulty for Zerocash to adopt Anoncoin's solution for the initial setup problem in case it works? COuld they just copy our approach for Zerocash?

May I also ask where you chatted with gnos1s?

[drAGon925]

For info, here is a response I got from gnosis on redit about a couple of questions I had.

///

I have read the Zerocash paper and while it has some very cool ideas, it has one serious weakness: the requirement for a trusted setup. This makes it not much better than a coin laundry like Bitfog: the owner of a coin laundry can steal everyone's coins if they so choose, and the same possibility exists with all the anonymized money in circulation in Zerocash. The only strategy to reduce a user's risk is to reduce the time their money is anonymized, but that reduces anonymity.
Anyway, to answer your questions:

1. Will it be possible to use zero-knowledge-SNARKs to reduce the size of the zerocoin proof? The authors of the paper are not too clear on this point.
Probably not.

2. Will it be possible to choose the initial setup parameters for zerocash without relying on trusted third parties, such as with RSA-UFOs as has been proposed for Anoncoin's version of zerocoin?
Probably not for years. This would be a major breakthrough if cryptographers could find a way to do this.

3. It is my understanding that the total amount encoded into zerocash can not be calculated, as the amount is hidden in the zerocash coin commitment. Would it be possible to create new coins (or perhaps double spend) without getting caught if the initial setup parameters were known? Or would this just let the person steal existing zerocash coins?
Yes, the former. If the entity who setup the initial parameters was dishonest and did not delete the data they were supposed to delete, they could create new money without being detected. The currency would experience massive inflation.

///

If its really possible to setup the original Zerocoin protocol without trust, but not Zerocash, then I think that Anoncoin will have much more to offer than other competing coins...

I dont get it: are all your questions regarding Zerocash? Its seems question number 1 at least is ambiguous. Will it be possible for Anoncoin to reduce the Zerocoin proof? If not, arent we doomed to blockchain bloat Anoncoin out of existence?
Whats the difficulty for Zerocash to adopt Anoncoin's solution for the initial setup problem in case it works? COuld they just copy our approach for Zerocash?

May I also ask where you chatted with gnos1s?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Anoncoin/comments/25z2fw/differences_between_zerocoin_and_zerocash/

[niteglider]

Just a 'heads up':  the hashfaster ANC pool is not doing automatic payouts and there is no provision for manual payouts.

I put in a ticket to support on May 19, three days ago and the situation still has not been resolved, although they did ask
whether I was still having trouble on the 20th.

[gostrol]

For info, here is a response I got from gnosis on redit about a couple of questions I had.

///

I have read the Zerocash paper and while it has some very cool ideas, it has one serious weakness: the requirement for a trusted setup. This makes it not much better than a coin laundry like Bitfog: the owner of a coin laundry can steal everyone's coins if they so choose, and the same possibility exists with all the anonymized money in circulation in Zerocash. The only strategy to reduce a user's risk is to reduce the time their money is anonymized, but that reduces anonymity.
Anyway, to answer your questions:

1. Will it be possible to use zero-knowledge-SNARKs to reduce the size of the zerocoin proof? The authors of the paper are not too clear on this point.
Probably not.

2. Will it be possible to choose the initial setup parameters for zerocash without relying on trusted third parties, such as with RSA-UFOs as has been proposed for Anoncoin's version of zerocoin?
Probably not for years. This would be a major breakthrough if cryptographers could find a way to do this.

3. It is my understanding that the total amount encoded into zerocash can not be calculated, as the amount is hidden in the zerocash coin commitment. Would it be possible to create new coins (or perhaps double spend) without getting caught if the initial setup parameters were known? Or would this just let the person steal existing zerocash coins?
Yes, the former. If the entity who setup the initial parameters was dishonest and did not delete the data they were supposed to delete, they could create new money without being detected. The currency would experience massive inflation.

///

If its really possible to setup the original Zerocoin protocol without trust, but not Zerocash, then I think that Anoncoin will have much more to offer than other competing coins...

I dont get it: are all your questions regarding Zerocash? Its seems question number 1 at least is ambiguous. Will it be possible for Anoncoin to reduce the Zerocoin proof? If not, arent we doomed to blockchain bloat Anoncoin out of existence?
Whats the difficulty for Zerocash to adopt Anoncoin's solution for the initial setup problem in case it works? COuld they just copy our approach for Zerocash?

May I also ask where you chatted with gnos1s?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Anoncoin/comments/25z2fw/differences_between_zerocoin_and_zerocash/

Question 1 was indeed about zerocoin-in-Anoncoin, in Zerocash they already use zk-SNARKS to reduced proofs size

Blockchain bloat will not occur as much as feared because we dont need to store the proof in the blockchain but in some external database that will be pruned at regular interval, only hashes will be kept in the blockchain:

I am taking some ideas from the BitTorrent protocol to handle the large size and CPU requirements of Zerocoin. Spend proofs will be broken up into pieces and verified and transmitted separately. A "spend root" contains the hashes of these pieces and other info that is needed to verify a piece. The blockchain only contains serial numbers and hashes of spend roots, which means everything else related to a Zerocoin spend can be thrown away eventually.

The plan is to use a signed checkpoint message at regular intervals. When a client receives a valid one, all Zerocoin spend proofs at lower block heights are thrown away, and the client gives the message to all clients it interacts with, until the message is superseded by one with a larger block height.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroCoin/comments/23pfwg/will_zerocoin_be_open_source/

For a ZC spend proof, the only things in the block chain (in the transaction input) are the denomination (in the amount field of the input), the spend root hash, and the serial number. The spend root is a ~1KB datum that contains hashes of several spend pieces as well as some other values.

https://github.com/Anoncoin/anoncoin/blob/zerocoin/doc/zerocoin.md

http://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroCoin/comments/20afhy/tldr_for_zerocoin_zerocash_by_jaaphenk_hoepman/


Zerocash cannot adopt RSA-UFOs because it does not use the same technology than zerocoin (zk-SNARKS in zerocash and not in zerocoin), the key in zerocash will be over 1Gb.

Hence here we have two differents technologies, one is trustless and token based (Zerocoin-in-Anoncoin) and the other is fully divisible and with greater privacy (everything is hidden including amount) but rely on trust for an initial setup (Zerocash). Also ANC will have i2p fully implemented in the client to hide IP, which provide another layer of anonymity.

If you want to chat with Gnosis and Meeh, you can join #anoncoin at freenode or through i2p (install i2p routeur https://geti2p.net/en/download and connect through it to IRC 127.0.0.1:6668, join #anoncoin)

[tomothy]

Is it easy to setup another blockchain explorer for anoncoin? I'm having issues finding a working one. Could I maybe throw a couple coins some way to help with hosting? I'm still hashing it out with Cryptsy and it would be nice to track TXids a bit easier to my wallet. I love them, don't get me wrong, and they usually fix stuff eventually... just... yeahhhhhh. Is 6/1 looking likely? 

[K1773R]

Just a 'heads up':  the hashfaster ANC pool is not doing automatic payouts and there is no provision for manual payouts.

I put in a ticket to support on May 19, three days ago and the situation still has not been resolved, although they did ask
whether I was still having trouble on the 20th.

use p2pool to avoid such problems

[K1773R]

Is it easy to setup another blockchain explorer for anoncoin? I'm having issues finding a working one. Could I maybe throw a couple coins some way to help with hosting? I'm still hashing it out with Cryptsy and it would be nice to track TXids a bit easier to my wallet. I love them, don't get me wrong, and they usually fix stuff eventually... just... yeahhhhhh. Is 6/1 looking likely? 

use this http://api.altexplorer.net/chains

[Chooseusername]

Do stealth addresses will be implemented in Anoncoin?

[K1773R]

Do stealth addresses will be implemented in Anoncoin?

No. there is no need for it and offers less anonymity than zerocoin

[Gnosis-]

For info, here are the links to the zerocash project and paper. Have't yet had time to read them yet

http://zerocash-project.org/

http://zerocash-project.org/media/pdf/zerocash-extended-20140518.pdf

Hi gnos1s,

After skimming the Zerocash paper, I wonder if you could clear up a few points for us:

First, in your opinion, will it be possible to use zk-SNARKs to reduce the size of the zerocoin proof? The authors are not too clear on this point.

Second, will it be possible to choose the initial setup parameters for zerocash without relying on trusted third parties, such as with RSA-UFOs?

Finally, it is my understanding that the total amount encoded into zerocash can not be calculated, as the amount is hidden in the zerocash coin commitment. Would it be possible to create new coins (or perhaps double spend) without getting caught if the initial setup parameters were known? Or would this just let the person steal existing zerocash coins?

In my opinion, we need to do a very good job at explaining to the community the strengths and weaknesses of Zerocoin and Zerocash. If zerocash is released (which seems very likely), there is likely to be a mad dash to ditch zerocoin/anoncoin for zerocash. Many people are already referring to zerocash as "v2", with the implication that v2 is better than, and makes obsolete, v1....

 

Answered on reddit: https://pay.reddit.com/r/Anoncoin/comments/25z2fw/differences_between_zerocoin_and_zerocash/chnxw39

[MasterMined710]

For info, here are the links to the zerocash project and paper. Have't yet had time to read them yet

http://zerocash-project.org/

http://zerocash-project.org/media/pdf/zerocash-extended-20140518.pdf

Hi gnos1s,

After skimming the Zerocash paper, I wonder if you could clear up a few points for us:

First, in your opinion, will it be possible to use zk-SNARKs to reduce the size of the zerocoin proof? The authors are not too clear on this point.

Second, will it be possible to choose the initial setup parameters for zerocash without relying on trusted third parties, such as with RSA-UFOs?

Finally, it is my understanding that the total amount encoded into zerocash can not be calculated, as the amount is hidden in the zerocash coin commitment. Would it be possible to create new coins (or perhaps double spend) without getting caught if the initial setup parameters were known? Or would this just let the person steal existing zerocash coins?

In my opinion, we need to do a very good job at explaining to the community the strengths and weaknesses of Zerocoin and Zerocash. If zerocash is released (which seems very likely), there is likely to be a mad dash to ditch zerocoin/anoncoin for zerocash. Many people are already referring to zerocash as "v2", with the implication that v2 is better than, and makes obsolete, v1....

 

Answered on reddit: https://pay.reddit.com/r/Anoncoin/comments/25z2fw/differences_between_zerocoin_and_zerocash/chnxw39

when will zerocoin be implemented in anoncoin?

[drAGon925]

For info, here are the links to the zerocash project and paper. Have't yet had time to read them yet

http://zerocash-project.org/

http://zerocash-project.org/media/pdf/zerocash-extended-20140518.pdf

Hi gnos1s,

After skimming the Zerocash paper, I wonder if you could clear up a few points for us:

First, in your opinion, will it be possible to use zk-SNARKs to reduce the size of the zerocoin proof? The authors are not too clear on this point.

Second, will it be possible to choose the initial setup parameters for zerocash without relying on trusted third parties, such as with RSA-UFOs?

Finally, it is my understanding that the total amount encoded into zerocash can not be calculated, as the amount is hidden in the zerocash coin commitment. Would it be possible to create new coins (or perhaps double spend) without getting caught if the initial setup parameters were known? Or would this just let the person steal existing zerocash coins?

In my opinion, we need to do a very good job at explaining to the community the strengths and weaknesses of Zerocoin and Zerocash. If zerocash is released (which seems very likely), there is likely to be a mad dash to ditch zerocoin/anoncoin for zerocash. Many people are already referring to zerocash as "v2", with the implication that v2 is better than, and makes obsolete, v1....

 

Answered on reddit: https://pay.reddit.com/r/Anoncoin/comments/25z2fw/differences_between_zerocoin_and_zerocash/chnxw39

when will zerocoin be implemented in anoncoin?

If I tell you, then you'll buy now and sell at the first price increase.
We need you to buying at high prices!

[geekz]

Is it easy to setup another blockchain explorer for anoncoin? I'm having issues finding a working one. Could I maybe throw a couple coins some way to help with hosting? I'm still hashing it out with Cryptsy and it would be nice to track TXids a bit easier to my wallet. I love them, don't get me wrong, and they usually fix stuff eventually... just... yeahhhhhh. Is 6/1 looking likely? 

use this http://api.altexplorer.net/chains

Guys dont forget http://ancblockchain.com

[K1773R]

Anoncoin finally has a real-time exchange. Time to say the laggy craptsy goodbye!


Check it out https://bleutrade.com/exchange/ANC/BTC

It would be good if some ppl could help bootstrap it.

[Tyke]

Here is the first 3 page section draft for Anoncoin.  Please say if anything is incorrect or missing.  Any major historical events the community can put forward are highly welcome.  Here are the pages:





Any donations to the future summer publication of this book are welcome - ANVLEZMHZYZRtS9mT4WNxunwLN7xi89imD

Thank you

[ToxicDartFrog]

Here is the first 3 page section draft for Anoncoin.  Please say if anything is incorrect or missing.  Any major historical events the community can put forward are highly welcome.  Here are the pages:





Any donations to the future summer publication of this book are welcome - ANVLEZMHZYZRtS9mT4WNxunwLN7xi89imD

Thank you

Looks pretty good although you mention the word darknet a lot and there is also a typo where it says "coins are mixed from may different wallet.." on that last page.

Also looks like ANC is doing really well today ^_^

[gostrol]

I think you got it wrong with subsidy.

Code:

int64 nSubsidy = 5 * COIN;
    // Some adjustments to the start of the lifetime to Anoncoin
    if (nHeight < 42000) {
        nSubsidy = 4.2 * COIN;
    } else if (nHeight < 77777) { // All luck is seven ;)
        nSubsidy = 7 * COIN;
    } else if (nHeight == 77778) {
        nSubsidy = 10 * COIN;
    } else {
        nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 306600); // Anoncoin: 306600 blocks in ~2 years
....

static const int64 BlocksTargetSpacing = 3 * 60; // 3 minutes

Block time was initially 3.42 min but now it is 3 min.

Hence, halving is at block 306600 (I dont think we have to add 77777, but I may be wrong). The chain is at block 187256 hence it remains 119344 blocks. A block is 3 min, 358032 min for 119344 blocks or 5967 h or 248 days.

This give 28 january 2015 as the date for reward halving to occur.

In exchanges you can add bleutrade.com

Also you can say the developpers are implementing Zerocoin (zerocoin.org) in a trustless manner. The zero-knowledge proofs combined with I2P will make it the most useful coin for anonymity in the near future.