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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 864391 times)
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October 25, 2013, 11:58:45 PM
 #1901

i actually own the 1000W model Seasonic which is similar to the X850's shown in the pic.  the way they're oriented in the Sierra, air will be drawn in the back and exhaust out the side (top of the PSU) as we have been discussing.

no big deal.

Lulz.  The contrarian power supply.

"We did it because it makes no sense & takes extra time & effort.  And because we plain old want to troll you Cheesy" --The Hashfast Kids, laughing all the way to the bank.

I find the liquid cooling arrangement far more alarming.  These are supposed to go in standard server racks, correct?  Then either the coolers will be venting hot air out the front (wrong direction) or flooding the case with hot air.  Really dumb.

i actually brought this up to Simon about a month ago via email.  here was his answer:

"Data center requires airflow front to back. PSU must be in the back, so rad will not fit in back. Rad needs coldest air, to provide maximum cooling. Air is moving so fast it does not get that warm, so this is the best config."

The chips will be fine but the other components are going to bake in this case.

And btw, the PSUs don't have to be at the back of the case.  I have a LianLi PC case with the PSU at the front.  They just ran an internal power cable to the back of the case.
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October 26, 2013, 12:00:33 AM
 #1902

i actually own the 1000W model Seasonic which is similar to the X850's shown in the pic.  the way they're oriented in the Sierra, air will be drawn in the back and exhaust out the side (top of the PSU) as we have been discussing.

Actually no.  Not sure why you keep stating this as it is 100% backwards.  In an ATX power supply intake is on the side, exhaust is out the back.  Every ATX power supply ever made, by every single vendor.
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October 26, 2013, 12:00:51 AM
 #1903

i actually own the 1000W model Seasonic which is similar to the X850's shown in the pic.  the way they're oriented in the Sierra, air will be drawn in the back and exhaust out the side (top of the PSU) as we have been discussing.

no big deal.

Lulz.  The contrarian power supply.

"We did it because it makes no sense & takes extra time & effort.  And because we plain old want to troll you Cheesy" --The Hashfast Kids, laughing all the way to the bank.

I find the liquid cooling arrangement far more alarming.  These are supposed to go in standard server racks, correct?  Then either the coolers will be venting hot air out the front (wrong direction) or flooding the case with hot air.  Really dumb.

i actually brought this up to Simon about a month ago via email.  here was his answer:

"Data center requires airflow front to back. PSU must be in the back, so rad will not fit in back. Rad needs coldest air, to provide maximum cooling. Air is moving so fast it does not get that warm, so this is the best config."

1.  The radiators go in the back, the PS get tossed into a trashcan & a single 1600W PS installed, the way all the cool kids do it.
2.  Cool kids know that PSs can go anywhere, including the front.
3.  Who in the world decided on 3 chips per 4U box?
etc., etc., etc.  Retardation reigns.
*The whole thing reeks of afterthought engineering.  As i looked at their 2U variant (now abandoned for a box twice as big), i wondered about the special radiators they had to use to cool 900W.  What fan setup?  Well, turns out it was just a bunch of bull, now replaced by this 4U botch job.
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October 26, 2013, 12:02:58 AM
 #1904

The chips will be fine but the other components are going to bake in this case.

Or not.  Depending on airflow through the radiators we are talking a 5C to 10C rise over ambient.  Would be nice is HF provided us the exact airflow of the fans I could tell you exactly how much the temp will rise.  Still if your ambient air temp is 22C you are looking at 27 to 32C.  For components rated at 60C the difference between 22C and 27C is nothing.

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October 26, 2013, 12:06:14 AM
 #1905

1.  The radiators go in the back, the PS get tossed into a trashcan & a single 1600W PS installed, the way all the cool kids do it.

Single low efficiency, high cost, no name brand piece of garbage PSU vs rock solid nearly perfect reviews SeaSonics.

Quote
2.  Cool kids know that PSs can go anywhere, including the front.

and disrupt the airflow to the radiators which is the single most important components.  So nice ice cold power supply (which is designed to use case air) and worse airflow to the radiators. 

Quote
Who in the world decided on 3 chips per 4U box?

Because it is 50% more per chassis and rack than 2 modules.  Still if it bothers you buy 2 and split it into two units.  Problem solved.

Then again you have no intention of buying one, in any configuration, at any price you are just here to troll.
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October 26, 2013, 12:09:07 AM
 #1906

Well at least this case design has exhaust fans.  KNC didn't see the need... pretty dumb and/or cheap of them.  But not as idiotic as this design.
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October 26, 2013, 12:11:13 AM
 #1907

The chips will be fine but the other components are going to bake in this case.

Or not.  Depending on airflow through the radiators we are talking a 5C to 10C rise over ambient.  Would be nice is HF provided us the exact airflow of the fans I could tell you exactly how much the temp will rise.  Still if your ambient air temp is 22C you are looking at 27 to 32C.  For components rated at 60C the difference between 22C and 27C is nothing.

You are forgetting that those components, the ones rated for 60C, aren't only conveniently heated by the radiator exhaust -- they generate heat themselves, and need cooling.  Like the VRMs, which cook.  With air cooling, there's enough air spillover to cool them, with this hotbox setup, the air traveling over those VRMs is both hot & very low velocity.  Dumb as dirt.
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October 26, 2013, 12:14:33 AM
 #1908

The chips will be fine but the other components are going to bake in this case.

Or not.  Depending on airflow through the radiators we are talking a 5C to 10C rise over ambient.  Would be nice is HF provided us the exact airflow of the fans I could tell you exactly how much the temp will rise.  Still if your ambient air temp is 22C you are looking at 27 to 32C.  For components rated at 60C the difference between 22C and 27C is nothing.

You are forgetting that those components, the ones rated for 60C, aren't only conveniently heated by the radiator exhaust -- they generate heat themselves, and need cooling.  Like the VRMs, which cook.  With air cooling, there's enough air spillover to cool them, with this hotbox setup, the air traveling over those VRMs is both hot & very low velocity.  Dumb as dirt.

Well "hot" is all relative.  Hotter than ambient?  Sure.  Hot enough to make cooling ineffcient unlikely.  If component is rated for 60C (most are 85C) and the intake air is 27C that is a huge delta T.  More than enough for sufficient cooling.  Why do you assume the velocity will be low?  With pusher and puller fans on radiator plus exhaust fans you base this assumption on very low velocity based on what?
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October 26, 2013, 12:17:45 AM
 #1909

1.  The radiators go in the back, the PS get tossed into a trashcan & a single 1600W PS installed, the way all the cool kids do it.

Single low efficiency, high cost, no name brand piece of garbage PSU vs rock solid nearly perfect reviews SeaSonics.

Rosewill is garbage?  Everything but Seasonic is garbage?  You're finding problems where there are none.

 
Quote
Quote
2.  Cool kids know that PSs can go anywhere, including the front.

and disrupt the airflow to the radiators which is the single most important components.  So nice ice cold power supply (which is designed to use case air) and worse airflow to the radiators. 

Not sure what you are talking about, not having my layout in front of you.  As i mentioned before, you seem to know absolutely nothing about this stuff.

Quote
Quote
Who in the world decided on 3 chips per 4U box?

Because it is 50% more per chassis and rack than 2 modules.  Still if it bothers you buy 2 and split it into two units.  Problem solved.

Then again you have no intention of buying one, in any configuration, at any price you are just here to troll.

If they were planning to put 3 chips into a 2U case, the same number of chips in a 4U case seems like a lame solution, no?  Lowered expectations much?
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October 26, 2013, 12:22:26 AM
 #1910

The chips will be fine but the other components are going to bake in this case.

Or not.  Depending on airflow through the radiators we are talking a 5C to 10C rise over ambient.  Would be nice is HF provided us the exact airflow of the fans I could tell you exactly how much the temp will rise.  Still if your ambient air temp is 22C you are looking at 27 to 32C.  For components rated at 60C the difference between 22C and 27C is nothing.

You are forgetting that those components, the ones rated for 60C, aren't only conveniently heated by the radiator exhaust -- they generate heat themselves, and need cooling.  Like the VRMs, which cook.  With air cooling, there's enough air spillover to cool them, with this hotbox setup, the air traveling over those VRMs is both hot & very low velocity.  Dumb as dirt.

Well "hot" is all relative.  Hotter than ambient?  Sure.  Hot enough to make cooling ineffcient unlikely.  If component is rated for 60C (most are 85C) and the intake air is 27C that is a huge delta T.  More than enough for sufficient cooling.  Why do you assume the velocity will be low?  With pusher and puller fans on radiator plus exhaust fans you base this assumption on very low velocity based on what?

Stop it with e delta T crap.  Why do i assume the velocity would be low?  Are you serious?  Do you understand anything about fluid dynamics or airflow?  Think, ffs.  Do i have to explain that airflow would be slower inside a big wide case than it is at the fan?
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October 26, 2013, 12:26:27 AM
 #1911

Lower isn't low.  Your statement was it was would "hot and very low velocity".   

Standard heat capacity of air is 0.569 W C/CFM  Chip thermal output is 250W.  So we are looking at rise in air temp of C = 142/CFM.  At 50 CFM per radiator it is <3C rise in air temp over ambient.   Obvious your concern is that a system which will operate at ambient without issue is going to ignite at 3C over ambient.

The reality is the airflow will be slightly warmer and still sufficiently fast to cool components with very load heat loads.   If chip uses 250W and the DC converter is 90% efficient we are talking 25W on heatload over a relatively large surface area (enhanced by the large heat sink fins on the module).  The rest of the components on the board would be a rounding error in terms of heat output.  It is a complete non-issue.  
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October 26, 2013, 12:30:54 AM
 #1912

Lower isn't low.  Your statement was it was would "hot and very low velocity".

The reality is the airflow will be slightly warmer and still sufficiently fast to cool components with very load heat loads.   If chip uses 250W and the DC converter is 90% efficient we are talking 25W on heatload over a relatively large surface area.  It is a complete non-issue.  

Relatively large surface area?  And if 10% is 25W, my crusty calculator tells me that 100% is 250W, is that what the total draw of those three chips is?  RLY?  Then Y the dueling Seasonics?  Or do you mean moar liek 150W?

Edit:  Stop defending stupid, ugly designs.  No thought went into this.  Zero.  If a 2U solution was possible, a 4U solution is monstrously wasteful.
Unless their 2U solution was nothing but a bluff.
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October 26, 2013, 12:44:53 AM
 #1913

Relatively large surface area?

Yes you see that larged finned component which is taller than the processor waterblock.  The purpose of the fins is to increase the surface area relative to a flat component.  Given the height of the fins (43mm) and the dimensions of the component (~100mm by 20mm) we are talking a pretty large surface area for something which has a staggering heat load of 12.5W.   Yup less than a CFL light bulb.

Quote
And if 10% is 25W, my crusty calculator tells me that 100% is 250W

That is right PER CHIP the nominal wattage is 250W.  The DC converters will therefore produce a heat load of a staggering 25W.  Actually on second thought there are two regulators per board so it is more like 12.5W.   12.5W per regulator with large finned heat sink producing a large surface area.   A low airflow is sufficient to keep temps <50C over ambient.
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October 26, 2013, 12:53:48 AM
 #1914

If Hashfast wanted to throw the BabyJet batch 1 customers a bone, they should allow them to "upgrade" their October BabyJets to November Sierras for the difference in price ($7080-$5600=$1440). Their marginal cost on the upgrade (4U vs BJ chassis, extra PSU, two extra closed loop coolers and modules) will be less than the $1440 they would charge.
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October 26, 2013, 12:56:44 AM
 #1915

Relatively large surface area?

Yes you see that larged finned component which is taller than the processor waterblock.  The purpose of the fins is to increase the surface area relative to a flat component.  Given the height of the fins (43mm) and the dimensions of the component (~100mm by 20mm) we are talking a pretty large surface area for something which has a staggering heat load of 12.5W.   Yup less than a CFL light bulb.

Quote
And if 10% is 25W, my crusty calculator tells me that 100% is 250W

That is right PER CHIP the nominal wattage is 250W.  The DC converters will therefore produce a heat load of a staggering 25W.  Actually on second thought there are two regulators per board so it is more like 12.5W.   12.5W per regulator with large finned heat sink producing a large surface area.   A low airflow is sufficient to keep temps <50C over ambient.


You are arguing for the sake of arguing.  Hideous, wasteful design is hideous and wasteful.  If they could have put 3 chips into 2U, puting the same number into 4U (more than double the space) is unqualified defeat.  Fail.  Either that or the 2U mockup was just hype.

Further, going by your wattage, we certainly don't need twin PS.  Seasonic (if that's the fetishistic choice) makes a fine 1250W model Smiley
If you're planning to clock up your chips, OTOH, i'm afraid you'll have to cool the VRMs, also.
Just stop.  This doesn't make any sense,it's as elegant design=wise as a pig on ice.
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October 26, 2013, 01:01:58 AM
 #1916

Lower isn't low.  Your statement was it was would "hot and very low velocity".

The reality is the airflow will be slightly warmer and still sufficiently fast to cool components with very load heat loads.   If chip uses 250W and the DC converter is 90% efficient we are talking 25W on heatload over a relatively large surface area.  It is a complete non-issue.  

Relatively large surface area?  And if 10% is 25W, my crusty calculator tells me that 100% is 250W, is that what the total draw of those three chips is?  RLY?  Then Y the dueling Seasonics?  Or do you mean moar liek 150W?

Edit:  Stop defending stupid, ugly designs.  No thought went into this.  Zero.  If a 2U solution was possible, a 4U solution is monstrously wasteful.
Unless their 2U solution was nothing but a bluff.

i dont think its a bad setup...  bringing the cool air in through the rads will be good for the 3 hot chips...   blowing it over the dc/dc converters isnt ideal, but we're not talking about hot air here.. we're talking warm air.

if ambient is say 25, even after the air has been warmed up through the rads, its probably around 40 tops...  i doubt that would do any harm to the other components.   and its being exhausted out the back from the two rear fans...

considering the compromises of having to use two atx psus, which are bulky...  which forced the other design considerations (piggy backing one asic board on top of another) and switching the airflow around from the more obvious direction...really isnt so bad.

even corsair, which incidentally uses the same coolit liquid cooling system as these hashfast boxes...  sometimes recommends to draw cold air into the radiator and exhaust it from the case fans... exactly the same as hashfast is doing, so i really dont see any harm in it.  most liquid cooled pc's operate that way.     in fact i recognise those radiators.. they look remarkably like H60s.   Also, the hot chips run very very hot and need the most cooling, whereas the dc/dc converters arent going to run as hot and wont need so much cooling.

http://www.corsair.com/en/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/h/6/h60_new_viewc.png

people have discussed air direction through the rads since the dawn of liquid cooling and either direction has their pros and cons, but it is certainly not uncommon to draw cold air through the rads, blow warmer air over the rest of the system, and then exhaust via the system/case fans.

eg: http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=98980
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October 26, 2013, 01:11:02 AM
 #1917

Relatively large surface area?  And if 10% is 25W, my crusty calculator tells me that 100% is 250W, is that what the total draw of those three chips is?  RLY?  Then Y the dueling Seasonics?  Or do you mean moar liek 150W?

Edit:  Stop defending stupid, ugly designs.  No thought went into this.  Zero.  If a 2U solution was possible, a 4U solution is monstrously wasteful.
Unless their 2U solution was nothing but a bluff.

there's lots of reasons why a 4U was more appropriate in this example than the 2U.  

the two obvious ones are, cooling... and power supplies.

1.  cooling.  a 4U allowed them to use three independent radiators - with 12cm fans.  had they stuck with 2U, they wouldve had a smaller radiator, and smaller fans... which wouldve been much less cooling capacity (and noisier... have you ever heard 6cm fans!?)

2.  power.  theyve gone for twin seasonic atx psus.  these are excellent power supplies... and presumably, well priced... but bulky.  In 2U, achieving the power required, and hitting the pricepoint, wouldve been very difficult.

for those two reasons alone, the switch from 2U to 4U makes sense.

Could it have fitted in a 3U instead of a 4U...?   Maybe... but i bet their suppliers already had a 4U raring to go, which wouldve saved time and, as we all know all too well... bitcoin time, is money!
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October 26, 2013, 01:12:07 AM
 #1918

Lower isn't low.  Your statement was it was would "hot and very low velocity".

The reality is the airflow will be slightly warmer and still sufficiently fast to cool components with very load heat loads.   If chip uses 250W and the DC converter is 90% efficient we are talking 25W on heatload over a relatively large surface area.  It is a complete non-issue.  

Relatively large surface area?  And if 10% is 25W, my crusty calculator tells me that 100% is 250W, is that what the total draw of those three chips is?  RLY?  Then Y the dueling Seasonics?  Or do you mean moar liek 150W?

Edit:  Stop defending stupid, ugly designs.  No thought went into this.  Zero.  If a 2U solution was possible, a 4U solution is monstrously wasteful.
Unless their 2U solution was nothing but a bluff.

i dont think its a bad setup...  bringing the cool air in through the rads will be good for the 3 hot chips...   blowing it over the dc/dc converters isnt ideal, but we're not talking about hot air here.. we're talking warm air.

if ambient is say 25, even after the air has been warmed up through the rads, its probably around 40 tops...  i doubt that would do any harm to the other components.   and its being exhausted out the back from the two rear fans...

considering the compromises of having to use two atx psus, which are bulky...  which forced the other design considerations (piggy backing one asic board on top of another) and switching the airflow around from the more obvious direction...really isnt so bad.

even corsair, which incidentally uses the same coolit liquid cooling system as these hashfast boxes...  sometimes recommends to draw cold air into the radiator and exhaust it from the case fans... exactly the same as hashfast is doing, so i really dont see any harm in it.  most liquid cooled pc's operate that way.     in fact i recognise those radiators.. they look remarkably like H60s.   Also, the hot chips run very very hot and need the most cooling, whereas the dc/dc converters arent going to run as hot and wont need so much cooling.

http://www.corsair.com/en/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/h/6/h60_new_viewc.png

people have discussed air direction through the rads since the dawn of liquid cooling and either direction has their pros and cons, but it is certainly not uncommon to draw cold air through the rads, blow warmer air over the rest of the system, and then exhaust via the system/case fans.

eg: http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=98980


First, let's dispose of the obvious stuff -- the only discussion that goes on about passing air through the radiator is weather the fan is pushing or pulling it.  Stuffing hot air inside the case is the solution of the last resort.  It's graceless.  It's an admission that you have not planned your layout, or that you have run into such trouble that you wound up defeating whatever advantage water cooling has offered.  It's a noob mistake, and even noobs don't make it.  It's akin to venting your cAr's radiator through the passenger compartment & out of the back windows -- sure, it works, but Concours d'Elegance is suddenly out of your reach, and your GF is pissed.
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October 26, 2013, 01:13:45 AM
 #1919


@cedivad

As a hero member, you should know what the risks are in bitcoin land.  I didn't get KNC because I was uncomfortable with ordering  from another country.  I weighed the pros cons of HF and purchased a few BJ.   I am still hoping to get my bitcoins back.

I am more interested in getting these miniboards....  who cares about cases and power supplies.... I just want the miniboards. I will treat them like  the new GPU.


It is a too early to be talking law suits... jeeezz....  take a chil pill... smoke a joint.. have a drink... go get laid... something other then what you've been doing Wink

cedivad is refusing to listen to reason these days.

He's in a dissociative fugue state, unable to think rationally, so great is his pique and so massive his sense of entitlement.

Let cedivad bawl like a spoiled little girl told she's not getting a pony for Christmas.

Let him waste money on lawyers and time on premature FTC complaints.

Have a laugh at his expense as the brat sets his hair on fire and runs around screaming bloody murder.

When cedivad sobers up, he'll be embarrassed by his pathetic behavior.  

As he should be.  Mature adults don't melt down and go postal at the first hint of bad news or slight disappointment.


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October 26, 2013, 01:18:12 AM
 #1920

Relatively large surface area?  And if 10% is 25W, my crusty calculator tells me that 100% is 250W, is that what the total draw of those three chips is?  RLY?  Then Y the dueling Seasonics?  Or do you mean moar liek 150W?

Edit:  Stop defending stupid, ugly designs.  No thought went into this.  Zero.  If a 2U solution was possible, a 4U solution is monstrously wasteful.
Unless their 2U solution was nothing but a bluff.

there's lots of reasons why a 4U was more appropriate in this example than the 2U.  

the two obvious ones are, cooling... and power supplies.

1.  cooling.  a 4U allowed them to use three independent radiators - with 12cm fans.  had they stuck with 2U, they wouldve had a smaller radiator, and smaller fans... which wouldve been much less cooling capacity (and noisier... have you ever heard 6cm fans!?)

2.  power.  theyve gone for twin seasonic atx psus.  these are excellent power supplies... and presumably, well priced... but bulky.  In 2U, achieving the power required, and hitting the pricepoint, wouldnt been very difficult.

for those two reasons alone, the switch from 2U to 4U makes sense.

Could it have fitted in a 3U instead of a 4U...?   Maybe... but i bet their suppliers already had a 4U raring to go, which wouldve saved time and, as we all know all too well... bitcoin time, is money!


You're missing the point.  They more than doubled the space inside the cabinet (read double the rackspace/moar monyz to host) and &still& arrived at a botched design.  I'm not saying it will not hash, simply that it is less efficient, bulkier, needlessly complex & due to higher internal temps, more failure-prone.  There's nothing to debate here -- the cooling system, considering its expense & complexity, is a total joke.  If a kid designed it, i would try to help, but this was done by adults, PROFESSIONALS FFS! Cheesy

Edit:  As far as "their supplier had it" -- i suspect Seasonic gave them a killer deal on the 750W jobs, and they took it.  Works for the BJ, 2 for this one, and a huge quantity deal.  Nothing to do with finer points of design.
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